Most Skillfull Fighter Of Alltime ?

[elmersalsa]

I have never seen a greater or better inside fighter than the great Roberto Duran

[Ambling Alp II]

you gotta be kidding me. What a joke that was.

Nope. Leonard's will to win is beyond reproach. Let me ask you two questions, which I know you haven't got the guts to answer.

1. Did Leonard ever quit in a fight?
2. Did Duran ever quit in a fight?

1. No
2.Yes


I ask now, what's the point? One fight doesn't make a fighter.

I ask you this, and let's see if you got the guts to answer
1. Did Duran beat his wife like Leonard?
2. Did Leonard beat his wife?

Answer me. What that got to do with skills?

You don't know that Duran never beat a woman. Hard to believe he never did.
Would you really be surprised to find out that Duran beat his wife? I wouldn't be surprised if he was a serial killer.
Leonard hit his wife, once. Inexcusable, but hardly enough to He admitted in a book, otherwise you would not even know about it.
He was not Jake LaMotta who did this for decades. He did not kill anyone like Carlos Monzon.

He certainly has been a better human being that Roberto Duran, who is the scum of the earth.

[Ambling Alp II]

SRL

Not sure that I agree about SRL as far as skill. SRL had 40 fights. I don't think that he compares in skill with greats like Charles, Moore, Pep, and Robinson, who had well over 100 fights. What Leonard had was speed and talent. When he started losing some of his speed, he started having trouble in some fights. I believe that SRL saw the handwriting on the wall when he lost to Norris at 34, and then retired (at least until the Camacho fight).

Roberto Duran fought until he was 50, and his skill carried him in some of his fights even though he was far past his prime. He gave a 34 year old Camacho a good fight even though he was 45 at the time. Some even thought he won including none other than Sugar Ray Leonard (which led up to his fight with Camacho).

JMO, but I thought what made SRL so good was his speed and talent. I would go along with Crease's list and have SRL as top 5 all time in the welterweight division.

SRL top 5 ATG? I saw him many times, and disagree. He was great, but not top 5. Super close fight with Benitez, his fight with Hearns he was definitely losing through 12 or 13....would have lost it by UD if a 12 rounder. He admitted Hearns beat him in a rematch that was called a draw. Great at stealing rounds with little flurries at the end. Beat? Hagler at the end of Hagler's career. Was totally shot at 34. If him and Floyd fought at 34, I guess that would make Floyd the GOAT? I actually put Hagler and Hearns on equal footing status as Leonard.

Oh please.
1.He won the Benitez fight convincingly. Was not close.
2. Should have been ahead of Hearns on the scorecards in the first fight. Hurt Hearns several times and was never hurt himself.
3. Hagler was not 34, he was only 32. Hagler was closer to his prime than Leonard was to his, and Leonard still beat him.
4. He hurt Hearns more times than Hearns hurt him in the 2nd fight and landed more punches.

He beat 8 Top 10 fighters before he fought for the title. When was the last time anyone has done that?

He beat 4 fighters who are top 50 All-Time. You can count on one hand the other fighters in boxing history who have done this.
He was at least good at every phase of the game and great at at most.
What is it with Ray Leoanrd? There is always an excuse for his opponents. Why are people so obsessed with tearning him down?

[keithmoonhangover]

you gotta be kidding me. What a joke that was.

Nope. Leonard's will to win is beyond reproach. Let me ask you two questions, which I know you haven't got the guts to answer.

1. Did Leonard ever quit in a fight?
2. Did Duran ever quit in a fight?

1. No
2.Yes


I ask now, what's the point? One fight doesn't make a fighter.

I ask you this, and let's see if you got the guts to answer
1. Did Duran beat his wife like Leonard?
2. Did Leonard beat his wife?

Answer me. What that got to do with skills?

It's to do with will to win.

When it didn't go his way in one of the biggest fights of his life, Duran quit. Leonard never did that. Leonard never quit. Not once. Leonard's will to win cannot be questioned. Duran's can and was.

You are completely and utterly biased towards Duran. I'm a Hearns fan, but I tell it like it is. Leonard had the most skills of any of the fab 4.

[BoxBuzz]

Nope. Leonard's will to win is beyond reproach. Let me ask you two questions, which I know you haven't got the guts to answer.

1. Did Leonard ever quit in a fight?
2. Did Duran ever quit in a fight?

1. No
2.Yes


I ask now, what's the point? One fight doesn't make a fighter.

I ask you this, and let's see if you got the guts to answer
1. Did Duran beat his wife like Leonard?
2. Did Leonard beat his wife?

Answer me. What that got to do with skills?

It's to do with will to win.

When it didn't go his way in one of the biggest fights of his life, Duran quit. Leonard never did that. Leonard never quit. Not once. Leonard's will to win cannot be questioned. Duran's can and was.

You are completely and utterly biased towards Duran. I'm a Hearns fan, but I tell it like it is. Leonard had the most skills of any of the fab 4.

Cmon, Duran did his atonement by allowing himself to face the full fury of Hearns without attempting to hide. I really don't think Duran's "quit" was all that optional....probably a "quit or shyt" moment. Never judge a great fighter on his worst moment. Or we have to allow Macho's beating of SRL to be his defining moment. Because if ray wasn't lacking courage on that day, he was lacking good sense. And we can't let that define him.

Duran may have gone into a funk at one point in his career, but he admirably navigated his ship out of those waters, and on to better times.

[man]

Try the great Roberto Duran

i see the argument. my personal taste is
for the great boxer over the great fighter.
but that is totally subjective.

[man]

SRL top 5 ATG? I saw him many times, and disagree. He was great, but not top 5. Super close fight with Benitez, his fight with Hearns he was definitely losing through 12 or 13....would have lost it by UD if a 12 rounder.

benitez' punches were short all night.
i have never seen a top level puncher
being so reluctant to throw with
conviction. SRL - benitz was anything
but close.

ray outsmarted hearns in one of the
smartest fights ever fought. at the
higher weight hearns was convincingly
better though, but both were past their
prime.

i found ray defeated hagler. close, but
not controversial in my opinion. coming
from such long layoff against such a
dominant beast as marvin this was
unheard of.

i hold three things against SRL.
the mocking in duran II, the unwillingness
for an immediate III and not giving an
immediate rematch to tommy.

[man]

Cmon, Duran did his atonement by allowing himself to face the full fury of Hearns without attempting to hide. I really don't think Duran's "quit" was all that optional....probably a "quit or shyt" moment. Never judge a great fighter on his worst moment.

second that. "no mas" was stupid, but
not unforgivable as people portrayed
it to be. there should have been an
immediate third fight to settle things
for good. and that would have erased
"no mas" as well.

[elmersalsa]

Nope. Leonard's will to win is beyond reproach. Let me ask you two questions, which I know you haven't got the guts to answer.

1. Did Leonard ever quit in a fight?
2. Did Duran ever quit in a fight?

1. No
2.Yes


I ask now, what's the point? One fight doesn't make a fighter.

I ask you this, and let's see if you got the guts to answer
1. Did Duran beat his wife like Leonard?
2. Did Leonard beat his wife?

Answer me. What that got to do with skills?

It's to do with will to win.

When it didn't go his way in one of the biggest fights of his life, Duran quit. Leonard never did that. Leonard never quit. Not once. Leonard's will to win cannot be questioned. Duran's can and was.

You are completely and utterly biased towards Duran. I'm a Hearns fan, but I tell it like it is. Leonard had the most skills of any of the fab 4.

And still, like a real man, you haven't answered my question. Pick your spots, OK? Pick your spots, LOL!

[keithmoonhangover]

What has Leonard's wife beating got to do with who is the more skillful fighter?

Do you think Duran had faster hands?

Do you think DUran had faster foot movement?

[elmersalsa]

What has Leonard's wife beating got to do with who is the more skillful fighter?

Do you think Duran had faster hands?

Do you think DUran had faster foot movement?

And I asked you myself the same question. What will to win or Duran's quitting has to do with skills?

No. Leonard had faster hands
No. Leonard had faster movement.

Now, like a "real man" if you're one, answer me:
Who was the better inside fighter? Leonard or Duran?
Who hit harder? Leonard or Duran?
Who had better defense? Leonard or Duran?

Do not run and answer me.

[elmersalsa]

Nope. Leonard's will to win is beyond reproach. Let me ask you two questions, which I know you haven't got the guts to answer.

1. Did Leonard ever quit in a fight?
2. Did Duran ever quit in a fight?

1. No
2.Yes


I ask now, what's the point? One fight doesn't make a fighter.

I ask you this, and let's see if you got the guts to answer
1. Did Duran beat his wife like Leonard?
2. Did Leonard beat his wife?

Answer me. What that got to do with skills?

You don't know that Duran never beat a woman. Hard to believe he never did.
Would you really be surprised to find out that Duran beat his wife? I wouldn't be surprised if he was a serial killer.
Leonard hit his wife, once. Inexcusable, but hardly enough to He admitted in a book, otherwise you would not even know about it.
He was not Jake LaMotta who did this for decades. He did not kill anyone like Carlos Monzon.

He certainly has been a better human being that Roberto Duran, who is the scum of the earth.

Leonard beat his wife more than one occasion. He was THE REAL SCUMBAG OF THE EARTH. A manipulative and phony hypocrite. In front of the camera acted like a clean cut and decent person to protect his image. Behind the scenes, he was a wife beater, a cocaine shorter and adulterer.

I bet my last dollar that Hearns and Marvelous respect the Hands of Stone more than Leonard.

But, then again, like I asked Keith, what that got to do with skills.

[Giancarlo]

Calm down Elmo or your head is gonna explode.

[keithmoonhangover]

What has Leonard's wife beating got to do with who is the more skillful fighter?

Do you think Duran had faster hands?

Do you think DUran had faster foot movement?

And I asked you myself the same question. What will to win or Duran's quitting has to do with skills?

No. Leonard had faster hands
No. Leonard had faster movement.

Now, like a "real man" if you're one, answer me:
Who was the better inside fighter? Leonard or Duran?
Who hit harder? Leonard or Duran?
Who had better defense? Leonard or Duran?

Do not run and answer me.

Now, this "real man" comment. I'm a "real man" if I answer your questions? Presumably I'm not a "real man" if I don't answer.

Well, let me ask you this..... if answering someone's questions makes you a real man, why didn't you answer Alp's question thread a few months ago? Does that mean you're not a "real man".

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Anybody else remember when Leonard invented the light bulb or freed the slaves? Alp sure does! Biggest nuthugger in history.

[elmersalsa]

Mm in

What has Leonard's wife beating got to do with who is the more skillful fighter?

Do you think Duran had faster hands?

Do you think DUran had faster foot movement?

And I asked you myself the same question. What will to win or Duran's quitting has to do with skills?

No. Leonard had faster hands
No. Leonard had faster movement.

Now, like a "real man" if you're one, answer me:
Who was the better inside fighter? Leonard or Duran?
Who hit harder? Leonard or Duran?
Who had better defense? Leonard or Duran?

Do not run and answer me.

Now, this "real man" comment. I'm a "real man" if I answer your questions? Presumably I'm not a "real man" if I don't answer.

Well, let me ask you this..... if answering someone's questions makes you a real man, why didn't you answer Alp's question thread a few months ago? Does that mean you're not a "real man".

This is you and me. Answer my question

[magwitch]

How might Joe Calzaghe have fared against Sugar Ray? Did Leonard ever box at Super Middle? Some kind of catchweight....who wins?
I’d argue Joe had the fitness and mobility to match Leonard’s attacks whilst giving him enough to think about himself...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

How might Joe Calzaghe have fared against Sugar Ray? Did Leonard ever box at Super Middle? Some kind of catchweight....who wins?
I’d argue Joe had the fitness and mobility to match Leonard’s attacks whilst giving him enough to think about himself...

Leonard invented his own belt at super middle and to tidy things up he snagged a belt holder at 175 to come down to 68 so he could get 2 divisions for the price of one and not be outdone by the hitman. Joe would have slapped the shit out of him.

[Syntax Error]

How might Joe Calzaghe have fared against Sugar Ray? Did Leonard ever box at Super Middle? Some kind of catchweight....who wins?
I’d argue Joe had the fitness and mobility to match Leonard’s attacks whilst giving him enough to think about himself...

Ray Leonard wasn't a super middleweight despite holding a trinket at the weight.

By the time Leonard had gone up to 168, he was well past his best, even if he could still fight a bit.

Calzaghe would have won a unanimous & clear cut decision.

[keithmoonhangover]

This is you and me. Answer my question

No thanks.

[Rexob]

How might Joe Calzaghe have fared against Sugar Ray? Did Leonard ever box at Super Middle? Some kind of catchweight....who wins?
I’d argue Joe had the fitness and mobility to match Leonard’s attacks whilst giving him enough to think about himself...

Joe Calzaghe would have ripped SRL a new hole at super middleweight, Ray was a welterweight really and Calzaghe was a big SM and fast, fit, combos, chin the lot it would have been a devastating end to the overrated SRL career.

[magwitch]

How might Joe Calzaghe have fared against Sugar Ray? Did Leonard ever box at Super Middle? Some kind of catchweight....who wins?
I’d argue Joe had the fitness and mobility to match Leonard’s attacks whilst giving him enough to think about himself...

Joe Calzaghe would have ripped SRL a new hole at super middleweight, Ray was a welterweight really and Calzaghe was a big SM and fast, fit, combos, chin the lot it would have been a devastating end to the overrated SRL career.

Nb. I don’t think I’d describe Leonard as overrated. He was an excellent fighter and holds wins over fighters that would have won belts in any era.

Are we talking about Khan Canelo or SRL Calzaghe here? Stay on topic

[Syntax Error]

How might Joe Calzaghe have fared against Sugar Ray? Did Leonard ever box at Super Middle? Some kind of catchweight....who wins?
I’d argue Joe had the fitness and mobility to match Leonard’s attacks whilst giving him enough to think about himself...

Joe Calzaghe would have ripped SRL a new hole at super middleweight, Ray was a welterweight really and Calzaghe was a big SM and fast, fit, combos, chin the lot it would have been a devastating end to the overrated SRL career.

Agree that Calzaghe v Leonard at 168 would have been painful for a past prime out of his weight class Leonard, but I can't agree that he was overrated.

His career up to 1982 cannot be faulted & his wins & the names on his resume back that up.

After '82, his career was admittedly a stage managed joke.

I can forgive him for looking less than stellar against Howard & I can praise him for coming back & performing like he did against Hagler, but I can't forgive the Lalonde farce & the WBC inventing a title for him & allowing him to take his opponent's higher weight title without ever competing at the weight.

The second Hearns fight was surprisingly good & SRL bit off more than he could chew when he thought Tommy was gone: Tommy won the fight, but Leonard did enough to make it competitive.

The Duran rubber match was one of the most cynical & farcical fights ever.

He should have retired after that, but he loved the comeback too much & paid the price ultimately.

[Ambling Alp II]

Why do people care about the 3rd Duran fight? It should not count as a big achievement. But why does he get criticized for it? Other guys beat Druan after this and didn't get criticized for fighting him. Larry Holmes does not get criticized for fighting Ali.

Of course the Lalonde fight was for WBS titles. It was for money. That is the main reason fighters take fights. Nobody is saying this makes him a great super middleweight or light heavyweight.

[Ambling Alp II]

1. No
2.Yes


I ask now, what's the point? One fight doesn't make a fighter.

I ask you this, and let's see if you got the guts to answer
1. Did Duran beat his wife like Leonard?
2. Did Leonard beat his wife?

Answer me. What that got to do with skills?

It's to do with will to win.

When it didn't go his way in one of the biggest fights of his life, Duran quit. Leonard never did that. Leonard never quit. Not once. Leonard's will to win cannot be questioned. Duran's can and was.

You are completely and utterly biased towards Duran. I'm a Hearns fan, but I tell it like it is. Leonard had the most skills of any of the fab 4.

Cmon, Duran did his atonement by allowing himself to face the full fury of Hearns without attempting to hide. I really don't think Duran's "quit" was all that optional....probably a "quit or shyt" moment. Never judge a great fighter on his worst moment. Or we have to allow Macho's beating of SRL to be his defining moment. Because if ray wasn't lacking courage on that day, he was lacking good sense. And we can't let that define him.

Duran may have gone into a funk at one point in his career, but he admirably navigated his ship out of those waters, and on to better times.

Come on yourself. Duran was 29 when he fought Leonard the 2nd time. The psychopath was losing to a better fighter and quit like a dog. Enough with the ridiculous excuses.
Leonard was 40 years old and had not fought for 6 years when he fought Camacho. At least he didn't quit.
Yes Leonard didn't show good sense by taking the fight at that stage. However, most fighters take fights they shouldn't have; including Duran.