BrocktonBlockbuster49

[surf-bat]

OK, here's my greatest heavyweights list I promised you:

1. Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Jim Jeffries
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Larry Holmes
7. George Foreman/Joe Frazier(tie)
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Mike Tyson/Sonny Liston(tie)
10. Evander Holyfield

The top 5 I'm pretty solid on. The rest are open to debate.

[surf-bat]

as far as a who-beats-who list(top 5), it would go more like this:

1. Ali
2. Liston
3. Tyson
4. Holmes/Foreman/Frazier(Holmes beats Foreman but loses to Frazier[styles])
5. Holyfield

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

interesting lists, thanx.



i disagree with ur head to head rankings, i cant see why u dont have joe louis in ur top 5? i would have him at # 1 or 2. and i strongly disagree with holyfield at # 5 head to head.


it seems in a head to head sense, u favor fighters post 1960

[surf-bat]

interesting lists, thanx.



i disagree with ur head to head rankings, i cant see why u dont have joe louis in ur top 5? i would have him at # 1 or 2. and i strongly disagree with holyfield at # 5 head to head.


it seems in a head to head sense, u favor fighters post 1960

Whom in my top 5 do you see Louis beating?

DEFINITELY favor post 1960 in head to head. The heavyweights all started getting bigger and stronger.

[surf-bat]

interesting lists, thanx.



i disagree with ur head to head rankings, i cant see why u dont have joe louis in ur top 5? i would have him at # 1 or 2. and i strongly disagree with holyfield at # 5 head to head.


it seems in a head to head sense, u favor fighters post 1960

Holyfield is a tough one to rank on any list. His career has been so up and down. One minute he looked like he could have given any champ in history a tough fight, the next he looked like he'd be lucky to beat Jim Braddock or Ingo Johannsen

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

interesting lists, thanx.



i disagree with ur head to head rankings, i cant see why u dont have joe louis in ur top 5? i would have him at # 1 or 2. and i strongly disagree with holyfield at # 5 head to head.


it seems in a head to head sense, u favor fighters post 1960

Whom in my top 5 do you see Louis beating?

DEFINITELY favor post 1960 in head to head. The heavyweights all started getting bigger and stronger.

i see louis beating every heavyweight in history. the only one I could see beating a peak joe louis would be muhammad ali, but i still favor joe in that matchup.



I think louis knocks out/stops frazier, foreman, holmes, holyfield

and i favor joe in a 3 fight series 2-1 over ali

[surf-bat]

interesting lists, thanx.



i disagree with ur head to head rankings, i cant see why u dont have joe louis in ur top 5? i would have him at # 1 or 2. and i strongly disagree with holyfield at # 5 head to head.


it seems in a head to head sense, u favor fighters post 1960

Whom in my top 5 do you see Louis beating?

DEFINITELY favor post 1960 in head to head. The heavyweights all started getting bigger and stronger.

i see louis beating every heavyweight in history. the only one I could see beating a peak joe louis would be muhammad ali, but i still favor joe in that matchup.

Really? That's interesting. Joe's greatest strength was his crippling punching power. Ali showed in his career that he could take the best shots of heavy hitters quite well(see vs. Liston, Foreman, Williams, Bonavena, Lyle, Frazier, Shavers, ad infinitum). Based on the evidence I see no reason to think that he couldn't take Joe's best.

On the other hand, Joe showed that if you gave him slick movement and angles that you could befuddle him. Who was better at this than Ali? The evidence supports Ali in this bout.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

its not about taking joes hardest shot. joe wasnt a harder hitter than liston or foreman, but he was a greater puncher than all of them. louis had faster handspeed, much more accuracy, threw far better and more unpredictable combinations, had late KO power, and had incredible snap in his punches. it wasnt the one shot, it was JOES COMBINATIONS. joe louis would hit u with one shot and it would paralzye u, then he would follow it up with the most devastating combinations uve ever seen and ur done. thats what made joe louis so deadly. he would hit u with a right that would paralyse u, u wouldnt go down but u wouldnt be able to move. thats when he would unlease his combos and finish u off. joe louis was the greatest puncher of all time and the greatest finisher of all time.


ali cant take joes combinations, no one can. dont forget, ali had a lot of flaws that he made up with incredible unheard of natural athletic ability and speed for a heavyweight. however i think joe louis would expose those flaws and ali would finally have to pay for them. even if he couldnt do it the first time, blackburn would prepare louis and i have no doubt louis would win the rematch vs ali. ali was also very sucepbtible to a left hook and joe had one of the best.

the question u have to ask urself is....would alis incredible speed and natural athletic ability be able to cover for his defensive flaws against the greatest puncher and offensive machine of all time?



of course then u have to ask urself........ would joe louis be able to cope with alis speed, movement considering during louis career he had trouble with slick fast movers

[surf-bat]

its not about taking joes hardest shot. joe wasnt a harder hitter than liston or foreman, but he was a greater puncher than all of them. louis had faster handspeed, much more accuracy, threw far better and more unpredictable combinations, had late KO power, and had incredible snap in his punches. it wasnt the one shot, it was JOES COMBINATIONS. joe louis would hit u with one shot and it would paralzye u, then he would follow it up with the most devastating combinations uve ever seen and ur done. thats what made joe louis so deadly. he would hit u with a right that would paralyse u, u wouldnt go down but u wouldnt be able to move. thats when he would unlease his combos and finish u off. joe louis was the greatest puncher of all time and the greatest finisher of all time.


ali cant take joes combinations, no one can. dont forget, ali had a lot of flaws that he made up with incredible unheard of natural athletic ability and speed for a heavyweight. however i think joe louis would expose those flaws and ali would finally have to pay for them. even if he couldnt do it the first time, blackburn would prepare louis and i have no doubt louis would win the rematch vs ali. ali was also very sucepbtible to a left hook and joe had one of the best.

the question u have to ask urself is....would alis incredible speed and natural athletic ability be able to cover for his defensive flaws against the greatest puncher and offensive machine of all time?

Greatest puncher/finisher? Maybe. I personally would go with Sam Langford.

You make some good points. But your argument becomes flawed when you say something about no one being able to take Joe's combinations(Tommy Farr did. Millions of 'em). Then you mention Joe hitting Ali with combinations. Joe would be lucky to hit Ali with any one shot, let alone with combinations. I see no reason to believe that Ali's chin, which withstood punches from harder hitters than Joe(like Shavers) would suddenly be "paralyzed" from a shot. This phenomena never occurred in his career so I see no reason to believe Louis could achieve this. I have however, seen Joe Louis get danced around and peppered with jabs and combos by fleet-footed boxers. That is something I could very easily see Ali achieving here. Look at the evidence.

You want to highlight Ali's flaws and Joe's strengths without mentioning that, although none of Ali's hard-punching opponents were as great as Joe, some were still great and Ali took their best. Joe on the other hand was unable to deal with any kind of movement as he had dreadfully slow, shuffling feet.

Ali was susceptible to the left hook? OK, but he always got up IMMEDIATELY, didn't he? Joe was susceptible to all sorts of shots. He was floored 10 times in his career against much lesser punchers than the monsters Ali fought. And he didn't always get up(see Schmeling 1)

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

well the ali-louis arguement IMO can go either way and has been beaten to death a millions times........


however im interested on hearing why think foreman, frazier, holmes, liston, and holyfield could beat joe louis?

[Jaclem]

..the thing that made ali seemingly impossible to kayo was ..in addition to his chin.... was his remarkable ability to avoid being hit...and if he was hit hard..once...it was virtually impossible to hit him again...reflexes got him out of the way. but...here's where i agree with brockton boy....joe COULD stop you in your tracks with one short punch...and then with as fast a pair of hands as any heavyweight champion in history...follow up instantlly with more bombs... and this is where i think he could..and would..kayo ali.

the max baer fight it easy to find on classic boxing tapes and films...a marvelous display of the bomber's devastating speed/power punches. he hits baer with three left hooks so fast that they're almost like one solid punch....a magnificent display....and baer had a chin that some opponents hurt their hands on.

those shots that shaver hit ali with were atomic in power...but he hit him with just one at a time....never with a quick follow up finisher. that's the difference between louis and just about every other super puncher amog the heavyweights.

[Grimm]

its not about taking joes hardest shot. joe wasnt a harder hitter than liston or foreman, but he was a greater puncher than all of them. louis had faster handspeed, much more accuracy, threw far better and more unpredictable combinations, had late KO power, and had incredible snap in his punches. it wasnt the one shot, it was JOES COMBINATIONS. joe louis would hit u with one shot and it would paralzye u, then he would follow it up with the most devastating combinations uve ever seen and ur done. thats what made joe louis so deadly. he would hit u with a right that would paralyse u, u wouldnt go down but u wouldnt be able to move. thats when he would unlease his combos and finish u off. joe louis was the greatest puncher of all time and the greatest finisher of all time.


ali cant take joes combinations, no one can. dont forget, ali had a lot of flaws that he made up with incredible unheard of natural athletic ability and speed for a heavyweight. however i think joe louis would expose those flaws and ali would finally have to pay for them. even if he couldnt do it the first time, blackburn would prepare louis and i have no doubt louis would win the rematch vs ali. ali was also very sucepbtible to a left hook and joe had one of the best.

the question u have to ask urself is....would alis incredible speed and natural athletic ability be able to cover for his defensive flaws against the greatest puncher and offensive machine of all time?

Greatest puncher/finisher? Maybe. I personally would go with Sam Langford.

Really how many of his fights have you seen?

[BoxBuzz]

I never tire of this debate Ali Vs Louis..... Unlike Bert Sugar and some very educated minds who favor Louis I'm with the Ali group.

However if they fought 3 times my guess is they would both get at least one win out of the series. How's that for having it both ways?

[Ezzard]

OK, here's my greatest heavyweights list I promised you:

1. Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Jim Jeffries
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Larry Holmes
7. George Foreman/Joe Frazier(tie)
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Mike Tyson/Sonny Liston(tie)
10. Evander Holyfield

The top 5 I'm pretty solid on. The rest are open to debate.

Wow Jeffries really is having something of a renaissance! I like your list though. Top 3 is very solid (which means it's pretty much as mine).

Nero, I understand Jim Jeff being high on a head-to-head but in terms of achievements and ability I don't think he's above Holmes.

[Ezzard]

as far as a who-beats-who list(top 5), it would go more like this:

1. Ali
2. Liston
3. Tyson
4. Holmes/Foreman/Frazier(Holmes beats Foreman but loses to Frazier[styles])
5. Holyfield

Wow (again), it's quite something not to have Louis or Johnson in the top 5. For me Johnson would be number 2.

[evndrbsn]

as far as a who-beats-who list(top 5), it would go more like this:

1. Ali
2. Liston
3. Tyson
4. Holmes/Foreman/Frazier(Holmes beats Foreman but loses to Frazier[styles])
5. Holyfield

Wow (again), it's quite something not to have Louis or Johnson in the top 5. For me Johnson would be number 2.

While I strongly disagree having Liston and Tyson in the top 5, a strong case can be made for Johnson not making the cut also. There are just more deserving fighters. Louis not being in the top five though is just not excusable.

[Ezzard]

as far as a who-beats-who list(top 5), it would go more like this:

1. Ali
2. Liston
3. Tyson
4. Holmes/Foreman/Frazier(Holmes beats Foreman but loses to Frazier[styles])
5. Holyfield

Wow (again), it's quite something not to have Louis or Johnson in the top 5. For me Johnson would be number 2.

While I strongly disagree having Liston and Tyson in the top 5, a strong case can be made for Johnson not making the cut also. There are just more deserving fighters. Louis not being in the top five though is just not excusable.

Johnson would be a handful for anyone in history. I think his defensive style (adapted for 15 rounders) would break a lot of hearts in the list of big punching candidates and would frustrate a lot of the boxers who he would force to be the aggressor. I imaginhe Jack's biggest problem to be with the busy 15 round brawlers who could take a lot of rounds off him (Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier, Holyfield) and would be prepared to eat leather to do it.

[Jaclem]

..i think box buzzy's analysis of louis/ali is the most reasonable.

[surf-bat]

..the thing that made ali seemingly impossible to kayo was ..in addition to his chin.... was his remarkable ability to avoid being hit...and if he was hit hard..once...it was virtually impossible to hit him again...reflexes got him out of the way. but...here's where i agree with brockton boy....joe COULD stop you in your tracks with one short punch...and then with as fast a pair of hands as any heavyweight champion in history...follow up instantlly with more bombs... and this is where i think he could..and would..kayo ali.

the max baer fight it easy to find on classic boxing tapes and films...a marvelous display of the bomber's devastating speed/power punches. he hits baer with three left hooks so fast that they're almost like one solid punch....a magnificent display....and baer had a chin that some opponents hurt their hands on.

those shots that shaver hit ali with were atomic in power...but he hit him with just one at a time....never with a quick follow up finisher. that's the difference between louis and just about every other super puncher amog the heavyweights.

Yes, Joe could stop in their tracks the guys he BEAT with one punch. But we're not talking about Johnny Paycheck or Tony Galento here, we're talking about MUHAMMAD ALI. And to say that Joe would KO Ali is a pretty thin, baseless argument since Ali fought more gargantuan punchers than any heavyweight in history and always finished on his feet, usually with his hands raised in victory.

Sure the Baer fight was impressive. Here was a big, 210 lb statue that had no head or foot movement and was right there for Joe to hit. He was the perfect canvas for Louis to display all of his gifts.

And what about Joe's shakey chin? How would he react to Ali hitting him with a blizzard of punches round after round?

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

And what about Joe's shakey chin?

louis did not have a shaky chin. i cant believe how underated louis's chin is nowadays

[surf-bat]

its not about taking joes hardest shot. joe wasnt a harder hitter than liston or foreman, but he was a greater puncher than all of them. louis had faster handspeed, much more accuracy, threw far better and more unpredictable combinations, had late KO power, and had incredible snap in his punches. it wasnt the one shot, it was JOES COMBINATIONS. joe louis would hit u with one shot and it would paralzye u, then he would follow it up with the most devastating combinations uve ever seen and ur done. thats what made joe louis so deadly. he would hit u with a right that would paralyse u, u wouldnt go down but u wouldnt be able to move. thats when he would unlease his combos and finish u off. joe louis was the greatest puncher of all time and the greatest finisher of all time.




ali cant take joes combinations, no one can. dont forget, ali had a lot of flaws that he made up with incredible unheard of natural athletic ability and speed for a heavyweight. however i think joe louis would expose those flaws and ali would finally have to pay for them. even if he couldnt do it the first time, blackburn would prepare louis and i have no doubt louis would win the rematch vs ali. ali was also very sucepbtible to a left hook and joe had one of the best.

the question u have to ask urself is....would alis incredible speed and natural athletic ability be able to cover for his defensive flaws against the greatest puncher and offensive machine of all time?

Greatest puncher/finisher? Maybe. I personally would go with Sam Langford.

Really how many of his fights have you seen?

Nice try at trapping me Grimm. I know that there are only 3 filmed Langford fights in existence(and a couple that have yet to be found). I have seen the Flynn and Lang bouts. The rest of my argument can rest on his record. Hard to argue with it.

[surf-bat]

those shots that shaver hit ali with were atomic in power...but he hit him with just one at a time....never with a quick follow up finisher. that's the difference between louis and just about every other super puncher amog the heavyweights.[/quote]

Precisely my point. A past-prime Ali took Earnie's atomic shots. It diffuses your and Brock's argument that Ali would be "stunned" or "stopped" by one Louis shot so that Joe could follow up. If Shavers couldn't stun Ali into stillness, how could Louis?

[surf-bat]

OK, here's my greatest heavyweights list I promised you:

1. Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Jim Jeffries
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Larry Holmes
7. George Foreman/Joe Frazier(tie)
8. Rocky Marciano
9. Mike Tyson/Sonny Liston(tie)
10. Evander Holyfield

The top 5 I'm pretty solid on. The rest are open to debate.

Wow Jeffries really is having something of a renaissance! I like your list though. Top 3 is very solid (which means it's pretty much as mine).

Nero, I understand Jim Jeff being high on a head-to-head but in terms of achievements and ability I don't think he's above Holmes.

EZZ- I didn't either until I read the book on Jeffries and learned more about his opponents. From the starting gate Jeff was fighting and beating top men. He was the absolute and undisputed dominant heavyweight of his day(a tough era in the division) and he proved it by beating everybody.

[surf-bat]

as far as a who-beats-who list(top 5), it would go more like this:

1. Ali
2. Liston
3. Tyson
4. Holmes/Foreman/Frazier(Holmes beats Foreman but loses to Frazier[styles])
5. Holyfield

Wow (again), it's quite something not to have Louis or Johnson in the top 5. For me Johnson would be number 2.

Unless you took a modern trainer and showed Jack Johnson the modern techniques, I don't think Jack would have much success. His style wouldn't translate today. He's used to blocking one or two shots at a time and then clinching. How would he be able to defensively cope with something he's never seen before? Like a Larry Holmes or Ali 4-5 punch combination?

[surf-bat]

And what about Joe's shakey chin?

louis did not have a shaky chin. i cant believe how underated louis's chin is nowadays

Schmeling. no huge puncher, stunned him numerous times and finally KO'd him.