Weight divisions - why so many???

[Lennox]

Dont know Jezz, we had a fighter that was very good but could not compete because he was not big enough to be a full Heavyweight, he had a huge punch and knocked a couple of decent heavyweights out but his natural weight was 14.5 stone, he could not make 13 stone 8, he could probably have got to 14 stone. In the end he retired. You are right that there are not many fighters at that weight but that is because .....

The problem with dropping the very light weights is there will be more deaths. A 3 pound difference at stone is very similar to 6 or 7 pounds at 10 or 11 stone. Super-feather is probably the one that could go with Lightweight moving back to 9 stone 7 (133) but that could still cause problems.

Safety is the key issue.

[jezzamundo]

Dont know Jezz, we had a fighter that was very good but could not compete because he was not big enough to be a full Heavyweight, he had a huge punch and knocked a couple of decent heavyweights out but his natural weight was 14.5 stone, he could not make 13 stone 8, he could probably have got to 14 stone. In the end he retired. You are right that there are not many fighters at that weight but that is because .....

The problem with dropping the very light weights is there will be more deaths. A 3 pound difference at stone is very similar to 6 or 7 pounds at 10 or 11 stone. Super-feather is probably the one that could go with Lightweight moving back to 9 stone 7 (133) but that could still cause problems.

Safety is the key issue.

Which fighter are you referring to?

[actjac]

That's why I only follow the heavyweights. In the lower divisions everybody is a champion of the world.

I agree there are too many weight classes and Interim titles, "regular" champions, "super" championships , "international" champions etc.. . Now catch weight fights are allowed. . My gawd!. . . Heavyweights are the only weight class I follow.

[asdfjkl]

That's why I only follow the heavyweights. In the lower divisions everybody is a champion of the world.

I agree there are too many weight classes and Interim titles, "regular" champions, "super" championships , "international" champions etc.. . Now catch weight fights are allowed. . My gawd!. . . Heavyweights are the only weight class I follow.

Indeed and next to that you can be the best boxer of the world for years and never get a belt. Look at Ortiz, the top guys simply seem to ignore him till he's too old. Look at Wilder, he managed to delay the mandatory fight against Povetkin till Povetkin was 37 or so.

[Lennox]

Dont know Jezz, we had a fighter that was very good but could not compete because he was not big enough to be a full Heavyweight, he had a huge punch and knocked a couple of decent heavyweights out but his natural weight was 14.5 stone, he could not make 13 stone 8, he could probably have got to 14 stone. In the end he retired. You are right that there are not many fighters at that weight but that is because .....

The problem with dropping the very light weights is there will be more deaths. A 3 pound difference at stone is very similar to 6 or 7 pounds at 10 or 11 stone. Super-feather is probably the one that could go with Lightweight moving back to 9 stone 7 (133) but that could still cause problems.

Safety is the key issue.

Which fighter are you referring to?

Keith Fletcher

[bigman1968]

That's why I only follow the heavyweights. In the lower divisions everybody is a champion of the world.

I agree there are too many weight classes and Interim titles, "regular" champions, "super" championships , "international" champions etc.. . Now catch weight fights are allowed. . My gawd!. . . Heavyweights are the only weight class I follow.

Indeed and next to that you can be the best boxer of the world for years and never get a belt. Look at Ortiz, the top guys simply seem to ignore him till he's too old. Look at Wilder, he managed to delay the mandatory fight against Povetkin till Povetkin was 37 or so.

Come on, Ortiz was and will be ignored becouse he isn't interesting to broad public. That's his team's failure. Business failure, nothing to do with his boxing skills...

The beloved by this forum Povetkin became mandatorial at June 2015, and could have his shot at January....but he cannot fight outside Russia lately...out of patriotism I presume (or PED tests, others may say). So his team dragged it till purse bid and someone wasted 5 millions or so to give him home advantage.

[jezzamundo]

Which fighter are you referring to?

Keith Fletcher

This guy? I think he probably could have trained/drained down to 190lb, but regardless, I don't think he would have been good enough to be any more than a journeyman at either weight.

http://boxrec.com/boxer/6648

[asdfjkl]

I agree there are too many weight classes and Interim titles, "regular" champions, "super" championships , "international" champions etc.. . Now catch weight fights are allowed. . My gawd!. . . Heavyweights are the only weight class I follow.

Indeed and next to that you can be the best boxer of the world for years and never get a belt. Look at Ortiz, the top guys simply seem to ignore him till he's too old. Look at Wilder, he managed to delay the mandatory fight against Povetkin till Povetkin was 37 or so.

Come on, Ortiz was and will be ignored becouse he isn't interesting to broad public. That's his team's failure. Business failure, nothing to do with his boxing skills...

The beloved by this forum Povetkin became mandatorial at June 2015, and could have his shot at January....but he cannot fight outside Russia lately...out of patriotism I presume (or PED tests, others may say). So his team dragged it till purse bid and someone wasted 5 millions or so to give him home advantage.

Hahahahaha

[Lennox]

Which fighter are you referring to?

Keith Fletcher

This guy? I think he probably could have trained/drained down to 190lb, but regardless, I don't think he would have been good enough to be any more than a journeyman at either weight.

http://boxrec.com/boxer/6648

He absolutely could not make 190. You don't know. His first loss was an bad decision, then he went in with a great amateur who was a 'prospect' having his first fight, he knocked him straight out almost all his fights were as the opponent. He actually became something of a star on Sky Sports because as he was knocking fighters out. Then he got himself dSQ for biting Michael Murray and he lost his way a bit, but he could have made 200 okay but not another 10 pounds. He dropped a couple of stars sparring as well.

Herbie Hide could not make 190 either. If there was a 200 division around at his prime he would have ruled. Having a 200 division only highlights the problem from 175 to 200, if you are 185 you are not going to be strong enough.

[jezzamundo]

Keith Fletcher

This guy? I think he probably could have trained/drained down to 190lb, but regardless, I don't think he would have been good enough to be any more than a journeyman at either weight.

http://boxrec.com/boxer/6648

He absolutely could not make 190. You don't know. His first loss was an bad decision, then he went in with a great amateur who was a 'prospect' having his first fight, he knocked him straight out almost all his fights were as the opponent. He actually became something of a star on Sky Sports because as he was knocking fighters out. Then he got himself dSQ for biting Michael Murray and he lost his way a bit, but he could have made 200 okay but not another 10 pounds. He dropped a couple of stars sparring as well.

Herbie Hide could not make 190 either. If there was a 200 division around at his prime he would have ruled. Having a 200 division only highlights the problem from 175 to 200, if you are 185 you are not going to be strong enough.

You're right, I don't know, but considering he fought as low at 197lb and guys at lower weights can rehydrate more than 20lb after a weigh in, I would have thought it possible. I still stand by my comment that he wouldn't have been good enough to be more than a journeyman at either weight, though, but certainly, he would have probably had more success had there been a 200lb cruiserweight division at the time. Herbie Hide certainly could have made 190lb early in his career, but probably not past 1993 without being a fairly big drainer. If a guy as big as Tarver could drain to 175lb for much of his career, I think Fletcher and Hide could have made 190lb for at least some of theirs.

[Lennox]

Jezz - Your not someone I have noticed that talks shit before but you just did. You don't know what Keith Fletcher or Herbie Hide could make weightwise yet you are still saying he could. Watch Fletcher v Corrie Sanders on youtube. You tell me how he loses 22 pounds to make Cruiserweight. THERE WAS NO DIVISION Keith could fight in. He was never going to be a journeyman. Unfortunately I can't say who he had over in the gym but Keith was a big puncher but with no 200 division he fought at heavyweight and was too small. Herbie Hide was exactly the same, he may have started out at cruiser but as he got older he could not make it. The 200 division came too late for him.

[jujigatame]

The problem with the weight classes is mostly at the bottom of the scale, where they're 3-4 pounds apart. You had guys like Jorge Arce cutting weight across 4 classes, which turns the whole thing into a farce.

The original weight classes (no junior/super classes) plus cruiserweight would really be fine.

[jezzamundo]

Jezz - Your not someone I have noticed that talks poo before but you just did. You don't know what Keith Fletcher or Herbie Hide could make weightwise yet you are still saying he could. Watch Fletcher v Corrie Sanders on youtube. You tell me how he loses 22 pounds to make Cruiserweight. THERE WAS NO DIVISION Keith could fight in. He was never going to be a journeyman. Unfortunately I can't say who he had over in the gym but Keith was a big puncher but with no 200 division he fought at heavyweight and was too small. Herbie Hide was exactly the same, he may have started out at cruiser but as he got older he could not make it. The 200 division came too late for him.

I'm totally willing to admit that I could be wrong - just stating what I suspect. I agree that a 200lb would have been ideal for Fletcher. I watched the Sanders fight - Fletcher looks trim, but quite muscular and bulky - I don't think it's inconceivable that with a change in diet and training (less focus on strength, more on speed), plus a fairly substantial cut in water weight, he could have made 190lb - after all, he made 197lb just 14 months earlier.

I'm in total agreement about the weight gap from 175lb to 200lb being too big. Danny Green was a good example of this - in his late 30s, he probably still could have made 175lb, but it would have been difficult. However, when he fought at the full 200lb limit, he found himself being outweighed by 20lb. My argument is that the talent pool isn't really deep enough to justify two divisions between between, plus guys like Holyfield and Haye have proven that small heavyweights can have success, hence my belief that moving cruiser back to 190lb would be the best thing for boxing, although not the best thing for a few fighters.

[JamesK]

Heavyweight
Cruiserweight
Light Heavyweight
Middleweight
Welterweight
Lightweight
Featherweight
Bantamweight
Flyweight
All with 1 champion and you will see boxing return to a more mainstream appeal

[jezzamundo]

Heavyweight
Cruiserweight
Light Heavyweight
Middleweight
Welterweight
Lightweight
Featherweight
Bantamweight
Flyweight
All with 1 champion and you will see boxing return to a more mainstream appeal

In an ideal world, yes. We just need some Russian billionaire to buy out all of the governing bodies, disband them and form one singular governing body for boxing.

[Lennox]

Jezz - Your not someone I have noticed that talks poo before but you just did. You don't know what Keith Fletcher or Herbie Hide could make weightwise yet you are still saying he could. Watch Fletcher v Corrie Sanders on youtube. You tell me how he loses 22 pounds to make Cruiserweight. THERE WAS NO DIVISION Keith could fight in. He was never going to be a journeyman. Unfortunately I can't say who he had over in the gym but Keith was a big puncher but with no 200 division he fought at heavyweight and was too small. Herbie Hide was exactly the same, he may have started out at cruiser but as he got older he could not make it. The 200 division came too late for him.

I'm totally willing to admit that I could be wrong - just stating what I suspect. I agree that a 200lb would have been ideal for Fletcher. I watched the Sanders fight - Fletcher looks trim, but quite muscular and bulky - I don't think it's inconceivable that with a change in diet and training (less focus on strength, more on speed), plus a fairly substantial cut in water weight, he could have made 190lb - after all, he made 197lb just 14 months earlier.

I'm in total agreement about the weight gap from 175lb to 200lb being too big. Danny Green was a good example of this - in his late 30s, he probably still could have made 175lb, but it would have been difficult. However, when he fought at the full 200lb limit, he found himself being outweighed by 20lb. My argument is that the talent pool isn't really deep enough to justify two divisions between between, plus guys like Holyfield and Haye have proven that small heavyweights can have success, hence my belief that moving cruiser back to 190lb would be the best thing for boxing, although not the best thing for a few fighters.

Good God Man, I am telling you the story about a boxer who could not make 190 and your still saying he could. Look he could not make 13stone 8. It was impossible for him he was as fit as a butchers dog and walked around just under 15 stone, he could not lose 1 and a half stone. To lose another 7 pounds from 197 was impossible. Most boxers fight at the lowest possible weight class, they cant drop another 4 or 5 pounds. Keith could have made 200 but never the 190...this is why I am telling you. It probably needs a 185 class in time there would be enough fighters, but not instantly as it stands the 13 stone boxer has no category, hence many give up.

[littlepug]

The problem with the weight classes is mostly at the bottom of the scale, where they're 3-4 pounds apart. You had guys like Jorge Arce cutting weight across 4 classes, which turns the whole thing into a farce.

The original weight classes (no junior/super classes) plus cruiserweight would really be fine.

its the lower classes with 3-4 pounds difference that take most of the heat in these debates, im assuming there are no former little boxers in this disscusion otherwise you would know of the sheer hell they have to go through to get down to fighting weight, its all guts and no glory for those boys

[cold187]

xxxtra weight classes were to cut down catch weights
#epicfail

[davie]

That's why I only follow the heavyweights. In the lower divisions everybody is a champion of the world.

I agree there are too many weight classes and Interim titles, "regular" champions, "super" championships , "international" champions etc.. . Now catch weight fights are allowed. . My gawd!. . . Heavyweights are the only weight class I follow.

Indeed and next to that you can be the best boxer of the world for years and never get a belt. Look at Ortiz, the top guys simply seem to ignore him till he's too old. Look at Wilder, he managed to delay the mandatory fight against Povetkin till Povetkin was 37 or so.

Povetkin is 36
And Wilder won the belt when Povetkin was 35.
For fucks sake.

[littlepug]

xxxtra weight classes were to cut down catch weights
#epicfail

no catchweight fights for the little guys

[jezzamundo]

Jezz - Your not someone I have noticed that talks poo before but you just did. You don't know what Keith Fletcher or Herbie Hide could make weightwise yet you are still saying he could. Watch Fletcher v Corrie Sanders on youtube. You tell me how he loses 22 pounds to make Cruiserweight. THERE WAS NO DIVISION Keith could fight in. He was never going to be a journeyman. Unfortunately I can't say who he had over in the gym but Keith was a big puncher but with no 200 division he fought at heavyweight and was too small. Herbie Hide was exactly the same, he may have started out at cruiser but as he got older he could not make it. The 200 division came too late for him.

I'm totally willing to admit that I could be wrong - just stating what I suspect. I agree that a 200lb would have been ideal for Fletcher. I watched the Sanders fight - Fletcher looks trim, but quite muscular and bulky - I don't think it's inconceivable that with a change in diet and training (less focus on strength, more on speed), plus a fairly substantial cut in water weight, he could have made 190lb - after all, he made 197lb just 14 months earlier.

I'm in total agreement about the weight gap from 175lb to 200lb being too big. Danny Green was a good example of this - in his late 30s, he probably still could have made 175lb, but it would have been difficult. However, when he fought at the full 200lb limit, he found himself being outweighed by 20lb. My argument is that the talent pool isn't really deep enough to justify two divisions between between, plus guys like Holyfield and Haye have proven that small heavyweights can have success, hence my belief that moving cruiser back to 190lb would be the best thing for boxing, although not the best thing for a few fighters.

Good God Man, I am telling you the story about a boxer who could not make 190 and your still saying he could. Look he could not make 13stone 8. It was impossible for him he was as fit as a butchers dog and walked around just under 15 stone, he could not lose 1 and a half stone. To lose another 7 pounds from 197 was impossible. Most boxers fight at the lowest possible weight class, they cant drop another 4 or 5 pounds. Keith could have made 200 but never the 190...this is why I am telling you. It probably needs a 185 class in time there would be enough fighters, but not instantly as it stands the 13 stone boxer has no category, hence many give up.

Ok fair enough - I take it the 197 was for a fight at an agreed weight where he had to cut weight and rehydrate?

If that's indeed the case and his natural lean fighting weight was around 210lb, then I don't buy that he was too small to fight heavyweights - smaller guys have had success before and since.

[jujigatame]

The problem with the weight classes is mostly at the bottom of the scale, where they're 3-4 pounds apart. You had guys like Jorge Arce cutting weight across 4 classes, which turns the whole thing into a farce.

The original weight classes (no junior/super classes) plus cruiserweight would really be fine.

its the lower classes with 3-4 pounds difference that take most of the heat in these debates, im assuming there are no former little boxers in this disscusion otherwise you would know of the sheer hell they have to go through to get down to fighting weight, its all guts and no glory for those boys

I'm not slighting the fighters, they're not the ones who designed the system. I'm just saying that when Jorge Arce was 130 pounds and cutting down to 115, he really could have fought at 118 without an issue. The extra weight class only serves to limit matchmaking, add a bunch of belts to fight over, and thin out the talent pool. It doesn't serve much of a legitimate sporting purpose.

[littlepug]

The problem with the weight classes is mostly at the bottom of the scale, where they're 3-4 pounds apart. You had guys like Jorge Arce cutting weight across 4 classes, which turns the whole thing into a farce.

The original weight classes (no junior/super classes) plus cruiserweight would really be fine.

its the lower classes with 3-4 pounds difference that take most of the heat in these debates, im assuming there are no former little boxers in this disscusion otherwise you would know of the sheer hell they have to go through to get down to fighting weight, its all guts and no glory for those boys

I'm not slighting the fighters, they're not the ones who designed the system. I'm just saying that when Jorge Arce was 130 pounds and cutting down to 115, he really could have fought at 118 without an issue. The extra weight class only serves to limit matchmaking, add a bunch of belts to fight over, and thin out the talent pool. It doesn't serve much of a legitimate sporting purpose.

ive always thought more weight classes means more fighters at their ideal weight but i can see what your saying

[Lennox]

I'm totally willing to admit that I could be wrong - just stating what I suspect. I agree that a 200lb would have been ideal for Fletcher. I watched the Sanders fight - Fletcher looks trim, but quite muscular and bulky - I don't think it's inconceivable that with a change in diet and training (less focus on strength, more on speed), plus a fairly substantial cut in water weight, he could have made 190lb - after all, he made 197lb just 14 months earlier.

I'm in total agreement about the weight gap from 175lb to 200lb being too big. Danny Green was a good example of this - in his late 30s, he probably still could have made 175lb, but it would have been difficult. However, when he fought at the full 200lb limit, he found himself being outweighed by 20lb. My argument is that the talent pool isn't really deep enough to justify two divisions between between, plus guys like Holyfield and Haye have proven that small heavyweights can have success, hence my belief that moving cruiser back to 190lb would be the best thing for boxing, although not the best thing for a few fighters.

Good God Man, I am telling you the story about a boxer who could not make 190 and your still saying he could. Look he could not make 13stone 8. It was impossible for him he was as fit as a butchers dog and walked around just under 15 stone, he could not lose 1 and a half stone. To lose another 7 pounds from 197 was impossible. Most boxers fight at the lowest possible weight class, they cant drop another 4 or 5 pounds. Keith could have made 200 but never the 190...this is why I am telling you. It probably needs a 185 class in time there would be enough fighters, but not instantly as it stands the 13 stone boxer has no category, hence many give up.

Ok fair enough - I take it the 197 was for a fight at an agreed weight where he had to cut weight and rehydrate?

If that's indeed the case and his natural lean fighting weight was around 210lb, then I don't buy that he was too small to fight heavyweights - smaller guys have had success before and since.

He could make 200. He weighed in at higher weights fully clothed and (its a long time ago now) I think we tried to make him bigger. 200 was his natural lean fighting weight. He was too small to fight 240 pounders. Today Cruiserweight would have been ok but not then. Today the problem is the 185 guys.