Cleveland Williams as a challenger in 1960 to

[yancey]

Patterson or Johansson.

I think Big Cat would have won the title against either man.

Thoughts?

[klompton]

They both would have beaten him. Williams is one of the most overrated HWs in history. Besides beating a green Terrell what did he do at HW? Nothing.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Cleve cracked up a mess of green eggs and ham is it now? Buy a clue, Terrell was 24-3 in his 6th year of boxing when Cleve knocked him out.

Fought him twice and Machen too as well as the best versions of Liston, lasting longer than Floyd and getting off better shots as well. Cleve could have used better management and development, but nonetheless he was a solid contender of the era, but modern revisionism absent any context is all the rage these days.

[klompton]

- Cleve cracked up a mess of green eggs and ham is it now? Buy a clue, Terrell was 24-3 in his 6th year of boxing when Cleve knocked him out.

Fought him twice and Machen too as well as the best versions of Liston, lasting longer than Floyd and getting off better shots as well. Cleve could have used better management and development, but nonetheless he was a solid contender of the era, but modern revisionism absent any context is all the rage these days.

Actually it was Terrells fifth year as a pro but Terrell was fighting his first "big" fight in his opponents backyard. Lets not pretend this was a prime Terrell, the guy had lost to the only three fighters he faced with a pulse and even if it was a prime Terrell its not like Terrell was some legend.

Yeah he fought Terrell, Machen, and Liston and what his record? 1-3-1. The guy was nothing special. Go figure up his record against all of the actual contenders he fought. Its a losing record.

Not sure how you can blame his management. Both he and Liston wanted a shot at Patterson so they fought each other, twice, he lost both times. Cream rises to the top and Cleveland Williams was not cream. He had an eliminator with Machen and blew that too. He even got a title shot without doing anything at all to earn it. How can you blame his management? Should they have been more protective? because outside of the guys he lost to he fought total nobodys.

[yancey]

Physically he looked like he should have been great.

He could have been a football or basketball player, I bet.

He probably lost confidence in his boxing ability after Sonny got finished with him.

[Controversial]

A big puncher but his record is littered with average fighters. I could never really understand why he is often mentioned as being one of Ali's greasiest performances.

He has a punchers chance against them both, especially in the early rounds against Patterson, but my money would be on him losing.

[evrenb]

A big puncher but his record is littered with average fighters. I could never really understand why he is often mentioned as being one of Ali's greasiest performances.

He has a punchers chance against them both, especially in the early rounds against Patterson, but my money would be on him losing.

I think its more that Ali looked great....he did...

[Ambling Alp II]

Williams would have a serious chance against Patterson or Johansson. However, he would usually lose. He did have some ability.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

A big puncher but his record is littered with average fighters. I could never really understand why he is often mentioned as being one of Ali's greasiest performances.

He has a punchers chance against them both, especially in the early rounds against Patterson, but my money would be on him losing.

It's outrageous how many people call Ali beating a literally shot fighter his best performance in a career so full of legitimately great ones. I wouldn't rank Williams in his top 25.

[evrenb]

A big puncher but his record is littered with average fighters. I could never really understand why he is often mentioned as being one of Ali's greasiest performances.

He has a punchers chance against them both, especially in the early rounds against Patterson, but my money would be on him losing.

It's outrageous how many people call Ali beating a literally shot fighter his best performance in a career so full of legitimately great ones. I wouldn't rank Williams in his top 25.

I agree it wasnt a great performance in that Ali overcame a very serious threat. It was just how sublime Ali looked..but I do understand that it is flattering....

[Tuan_Jim]

I think there's more to Big Cat's LKO3 to Liston than a plain simple loss. Patterson and Ingo would collapse under such a frightful barrage. It's clear from Liston's comments over the years that Williams made a big impression on him.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

A big puncher but his record is littered with average fighters. I could never really understand why he is often mentioned as being one of Ali's greasiest performances.

He has a punchers chance against them both, especially in the early rounds against Patterson, but my money would be on him losing.

It's outrageous how many people call Ali beating a literally shot fighter his best performance in a career so full of legitimately great ones. I wouldn't rank Williams in his top 25.

I agree it wasnt a great performance in that Ali overcame a very serious threat. It was just how sublime Ali looked..but I do understand that it is flattering....

Too each their own, I found him more impressive losing to Frazier than beating up on a guy with a bullet inside of him.

[evrenb]

It's outrageous how many people call Ali beating a literally shot fighter his best performance in a career so full of legitimately great ones. I wouldn't rank Williams in his top 25.

I agree it wasnt a great performance in that Ali overcame a very serious threat. It was just how sublime Ali looked..but I do understand that it is flattering....

Too each their own, I found him more impressive losing to Frazier than beating up on a guy with a bullet inside of him.

Yeah I get that too....I find it amazing how many of Ali's contemporaries and publications like 'The Ring' only gave the respect befitting him after that Frazier loss. It was like 'He has been humbled..he has been beaten ...we can give him a some kudos now'.
I was reading the 1971 souvenir issue of Ring Magazine that featured the 1st fight and it certainly came across that way....

[Caractacus]

There was a long thread on this subject a few years back.
Why dont you guys just bump it up ?

[Controversial]

A big puncher but his record is littered with average fighters. I could never really understand why he is often mentioned as being one of Ali's greasiest performances.

He has a punchers chance against them both, especially in the early rounds against Patterson, but my money would be on him losing.

I think its more that Ali looked great....he did...

Yes sure I get that, I meant that Williams was hardly a world beater so I could never work out why so much credit was given to Ali in that fight.