Rocky Marciano vs Joe Bugner

[ImranSarwar]

Cygnus475:
Pretty sure Michael Spinks could "connect" on joe Louis but he wouldn't have a 3% chance of beating him so why bring it up? < YOU. I think
It would be intriguing and I'd "FAVOR JOE LOUIS" but..70 to 30%! WE'LL NEVER KNOW. "Too bad" how MS career ended! He shouldn't be remembered just for that fight, though!

[ImranSarwar]

I think Foreman discusses the differences between the young fighter and the old fighter at length in By George - though I don't want to have to dredge up all the passages in order to 'prove' it.

George says what there (?)

[Cygnus475]

2-forget about the fix allegation, you're obviously not gonna change your mind.

Forget that you believe THIS is a fix? How can I forget it? Your basic intelligence is in question. Anyone who can watch this fight and believe it was fixed is obviously mad. Anyone who would call it a fix without even bothering to watch it is an idiot. Which one are you, O wise "some guy on the internet"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pPfPUQopfg

You are so emotional omg

I'm obviously not going to convince you and you aren't going to convince me. I was trying to be polite and drop the issue but you insist on focusing on only one part of my post. I brought up several valid points that are shared by many respected writers, posters, fighters, trainers, etc. You act like what I'm saying is nonsense and unfounded but you have yet to prove it.

Either form some logical arguments/evidence or stfu and go back to jacking off over the Marciano poster in your room. We're way off topic anyway.

[Caractacus]

Im pretty sure Nick Toshes just quoted someone in his book who just misspoke probably due to advancing age.
Because just about everyone knows it was the Archie Moore vrs Floyd Patterson fight for the vacant Heavyweight Championship
that was obviously probably a tank job to those at ringside who saw it.
(just bump up the thread from 2013 on this same very same subject for further discussion).

[Tuan_Jim]

2-forget about the fix allegation, you're obviously not gonna change your mind.

Forget that you believe THIS is a fix? How can I forget it? Your basic intelligence is in question. Anyone who can watch this fight and believe it was fixed is obviously mad. Anyone who would call it a fix without even bothering to watch it is an idiot. Which one are you, O wise "some guy on the internet"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pPfPUQopfg

You are so emotional omg

I'm obviously not going to convince you and you aren't going to convince me. I was trying to be polite and drop the issue but you insist on focusing on only one part of my post. I brought up several valid points that are shared by many respected writers, posters, fighters, trainers, etc. You act like what I'm saying is nonsense and unfounded but you have yet to prove it.

Either form some logical arguments/evidence or stfu and go back to jacking off over the Marciano poster in your room. We're way off topic anyway.

I'm not going to convince you that Marciano/Moore was real? I shouldn't need to convince any man with a flicker of intelligence that the above spectacle was real. The eyes will tell anyone who watches such an intense, violent fight that it is real.

The fact you refuse to concede this brings your basic faculties into question, which is why I can't answer your points. For obvious reasons, your opinions are under suspicion. Why can't you answer whether you have watched the fight? If you watched it and think it's fake, you're hopelessly mad. If you haven't watched it but are happy to dismiss it as a fix because of an old obscure crook in a book you're obviously an idiot.

What's very clear is that you regret taking this Marciano/Moore fix stance and have been trying to wriggle out of it ever since. Your silence on whether you have watched the fight says it all. You even asked me to "prove" it was real. Well, there's the tape. You keep trying to save face by reaching for the desperation "fanboy" diminutive. I'm not an obsessive Marciano fanboy, as my posts on Boxing History attest. I am a fan of logic and reason. Where do you stand on logic and reason?

[Tuan_Jim]

Im pretty sure Nick Toshes just quoted someone in his book who just misspoke probably due to advancing age.
Because just about everyone knows it was the Archie Moore vrs Floyd Patterson fight for the vacant Heavyweight Championship
that was obviously probably a tank job to those at ringside who saw it.
(just bump up the thread from 2013 on this same very same subject for further discussion).

Yes, the fellow speaking to Tosches was an old bum in his 80s. What he says would fit Patterson/Moore, with its strange looking kayo, but who knows what his agenda was. Maybe he was just excited to appear in a Tosches book. As you say, everyone knows it's Patterson/Moore that has been rumoured to be a fix, and yet it seems to have escaped our learned friend Cygnus who is evidently of the simple & impressionable sort.

[Caractacus]

yeah, like Truman Gibson was like 88 years old when Nick Tosches interviewed him for his book
THE DEVIL AND SONNY LISTON.
You had to maybe give him him slack for trying to remember names and maybe getting some people and things confused.

[Caractacus]

There is also some joker on this forum here who claims maybe Jersey Joe Walcott "Threw"
the rematch with Rocky Marciano
(despite it not only having been shown on live television to a nation of millions but also
the match was specifically filmed with multiple special cameras to film ringside in friggen "3-D"
for showing at the Cinema on a huge friggen screen !
(looks like Im going to have to bump up that thread too).

[yancey]

There is also some joker on this forum here who claims maybe Jersey Joe Walcott "Threw"
the rematch with Rocky Marciano
(despite it not only having been shown on live television to a nation of millions but also
the match was specifically filmed with multiple special cameras to film ringside in friggen "3-D"
for showing at the Cinema on a huge friggen screen !
(looks like Im going to have to bump up that thread too).

The joker is right.

[ImranSarwar]

(Cygnus475) Kind of doubt it we could go "off topic" talking boxing at a "Joe Bugner" vs The Rock Rocky Marciano stream! : ) [Joe Bugner "great" for his age/ "era" but...Rocky proved himself again again again and again and again]

Question: What happens when this idea becomes exhausted?

I was on a "Topix" thread (Nate Knuckles design of: "How would you improve boxing in USA, amateur and pro") [title something like that!] and, well.."same idea" [I check them here and there. Me & Nate"fought ugly" but became friends. Even I have him in Fb! : )]
Jerry Quarry Foundation "letters" we have small group conversation going on there, too. [Bugner vs Jerry lot "closer" Haa!]
John Wilkinson 24(11)-15-1 amateur w-l-d (I thought I "lost" that DRAW!) & I was ARMY V Corp champ (139lbs.). Pro I'm 12-1-0 l-w-d. ("The 'W' was almost a draw, ha ha!")

[Cygnus475]

Forget that you believe THIS is a fix? How can I forget it? Your basic intelligence is in question. Anyone who can watch this fight and believe it was fixed is obviously mad. Anyone who would call it a fix without even bothering to watch it is an idiot. Which one are you, O wise "some guy on the internet"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pPfPUQopfg

You are so emotional omg

I'm obviously not going to convince you and you aren't going to convince me. I was trying to be polite and drop the issue but you insist on focusing on only one part of my post. I brought up several valid points that are shared by many respected writers, posters, fighters, trainers, etc. You act like what I'm saying is nonsense and unfounded but you have yet to prove it.

Either form some logical arguments/evidence or stfu and go back to jacking off over the Marciano poster in your room. We're way off topic anyway.

I'm not going to convince you that Marciano/Moore was real? I shouldn't need to convince any man with a flicker of intelligence that the above spectacle was real. The eyes will tell anyone who watches such an intense, violent fight that it is real.

The fact you refuse to concede this brings your basic faculties into question, which is why I can't answer your points. For obvious reasons, your opinions are under suspicion. Why can't you answer whether you have watched the fight? If you watched it and think it's fake, you're hopelessly mad. If you haven't watched it but are happy to dismiss it as a fix because of an old obscure crook in a book you're obviously an idiot.

What's very clear is that you regret taking this Marciano/Moore fix stance and have been trying to wriggle out of it ever since. Your silence on whether you have watched the fight says it all. You even asked me to "prove" it was real. Well, there's the tape. You keep trying to save face by reaching for the desperation "fanboy" diminutive. I'm not an obsessive Marciano fanboy, as my posts on Boxing History attest. I am a fan of logic and reason. Where do you stand on logic and reason?

I have seen it, all you're blowing is hot air to cover up the fact you can't form a credible argument to counter any of my points. You're focusing on this and not dropping it because you've got nothing else.

For the record, all I said was there were RUMOURS of fixed fights which is a FACT. It is a FACT that Marciano hung out with mafia members and it's a FACT that his brother Peter fought under fake aliases to fight him which was stated in his own biography.

[yancey]

(Cygnus475) Kind of doubt it we could go "off topic" talking boxing at a "Joe Bugner" vs The Rock Rocky Marciano stream! : ) [Joe Bugner "great" for his age/ "era" but...Rocky proved himself again again again and again and again]

Question: What happens when this idea becomes exhausted?

I was on a "Topix" thread (Nate Knuckles design of: "How would you improve boxing in USA, amateur and pro") [title something like that!] and, well.."same idea" [I check them here and there. Me & Nate"fought ugly" but became friends. Even I have him in Fb! : )]
Jerry Quarry Foundation "letters" we have small group conversation going on there, too. [Bugner vs Jerry lot "closer" Haa!]
John Wilkinson 24(11)-15-1 amateur w-l-d (I thought I "lost" that DRAW!) & I was ARMY V Corp champ (139lbs.). Pro I'm 12-1-0 l-w-d. ("The 'W' was almost a draw, ha ha!")

A novel idea, listing the number of losses, then wins. In your case, very smart.

btw, Jerry also beats Rocky.

[Tuan_Jim]

You are so emotional omg

I'm obviously not going to convince you and you aren't going to convince me. I was trying to be polite and drop the issue but you insist on focusing on only one part of my post. I brought up several valid points that are shared by many respected writers, posters, fighters, trainers, etc. You act like what I'm saying is nonsense and unfounded but you have yet to prove it.

Either form some logical arguments/evidence or stfu and go back to jacking off over the Marciano poster in your room. We're way off topic anyway.

I'm not going to convince you that Marciano/Moore was real? I shouldn't need to convince any man with a flicker of intelligence that the above spectacle was real. The eyes will tell anyone who watches such an intense, violent fight that it is real.

The fact you refuse to concede this brings your basic faculties into question, which is why I can't answer your points. For obvious reasons, your opinions are under suspicion. Why can't you answer whether you have watched the fight? If you watched it and think it's fake, you're hopelessly mad. If you haven't watched it but are happy to dismiss it as a fix because of an old obscure crook in a book you're obviously an idiot.

What's very clear is that you regret taking this Marciano/Moore fix stance and have been trying to wriggle out of it ever since. Your silence on whether you have watched the fight says it all. You even asked me to "prove" it was real. Well, there's the tape. You keep trying to save face by reaching for the desperation "fanboy" diminutive. I'm not an obsessive Marciano fanboy, as my posts on Boxing History attest. I am a fan of logic and reason. Where do you stand on logic and reason?

I have seen it, all you're blowing is hot air to cover up the fact you can't form a credible argument to counter any of my points. You're focusing on this and not dropping it because you've got nothing else.

For the record, all I said was there were RUMOURS of fixed fights which is a FACT. It is a FACT that Marciano hung out with mafia members and it's a FACT that his brother Peter fought under fake aliases to fight him which was stated in his own biography.

No, no. It's all here in the thread. You asked me to "prove" Marciano/Moore was real. You said you would take Tosches' word "over some guy on the internet." And now, finally, you say you have watched the fight as well.

So you've watched Marciano/Moore.... and you think it's 'fake'.

What a tragic & cringeworthy position to have to take.

[Cygnus475]

I'm not going to convince you that Marciano/Moore was real? I shouldn't need to convince any man with a flicker of intelligence that the above spectacle was real. The eyes will tell anyone who watches such an intense, violent fight that it is real.

The fact you refuse to concede this brings your basic faculties into question, which is why I can't answer your points. For obvious reasons, your opinions are under suspicion. Why can't you answer whether you have watched the fight? If you watched it and think it's fake, you're hopelessly mad. If you haven't watched it but are happy to dismiss it as a fix because of an old obscure crook in a book you're obviously an idiot.

What's very clear is that you regret taking this Marciano/Moore fix stance and have been trying to wriggle out of it ever since. Your silence on whether you have watched the fight says it all. You even asked me to "prove" it was real. Well, there's the tape. You keep trying to save face by reaching for the desperation "fanboy" diminutive. I'm not an obsessive Marciano fanboy, as my posts on Boxing History attest. I am a fan of logic and reason. Where do you stand on logic and reason?

I have seen it, all you're blowing is hot air to cover up the fact you can't form a credible argument to counter any of my points. You're focusing on this and not dropping it because you've got nothing else.

For the record, all I said was there were RUMOURS of fixed fights which is a FACT. It is a FACT that Marciano hung out with mafia members and it's a FACT that his brother Peter fought under fake aliases to fight him which was stated in his own biography.

No, no. It's all here in the thread. You asked me to "prove" Marciano/Moore was real. You said you would take Tosches' word "over some guy on the internet." And now, finally, you say you have watched the fight as well.

So you've watched Marciano/Moore.... and you think it's 'fake'.

What a tragic & cringeworthy position to have to take.

I said disprove Tosche's arguments...something you have failed to do and just keep spamming the fight on youtube.

I see you are unable to form any constructive counter arguments. Concession accepted.

[Tuan_Jim]

I have seen it, all you're blowing is hot air to cover up the fact you can't form a credible argument to counter any of my points. You're focusing on this and not dropping it because you've got nothing else.

For the record, all I said was there were RUMOURS of fixed fights which is a FACT. It is a FACT that Marciano hung out with mafia members and it's a FACT that his brother Peter fought under fake aliases to fight him which was stated in his own biography.

No, no. It's all here in the thread. You asked me to "prove" Marciano/Moore was real. You said you would take Tosches' word "over some guy on the internet." And now, finally, you say you have watched the fight as well.

So you've watched Marciano/Moore.... and you think it's 'fake'.

What a tragic & cringeworthy position to have to take.

I said disprove Tosche's arguments...something you have failed to do and just keep spamming the fight on youtube.

I see you are unable to form any constructive counter arguments. Concession accepted.

Toshes presents no arguments. You can't even get that straight. He relates the words of an octagenarian gangster, which don't survive scrutiny. The video of the fight squelches all infantile conspiracy nonsense. The video IS unequivocally, empirically the most articulate counter argument to your embarrassing claim of a fix. You want the proof. There it is!

The fact you have to cling to the fix claim is your concession. Frame it however you want. Your position is nonsense and you have been humiliated here.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I was wondering how this thread got so long. Amazing how many fans call brutal beatings fixed fights. There were a bunch on the Mansour/Breazeale fight recently. Dives don't come with the preclusion that you have to take an inhuman beating for an exact amount of time. Fools act like it's Freddie Ling telling Vandamn you must get punished all the rounds or Archie Moore die!

[yancey]

I was wondering how this thread got so long. Amazing how many fans call brutal beatings fixed fights. There were a bunch on the Mansour/Breazeale fight recently. Dives don't come with the preclusion that you have to take an inhuman beating for an exact amount of time. Fools act like it's Freddie Ling telling Vandamn you must get punished all the rounds or Archie Moore die!

Saad, do you have an opinion on the second Rocky-JJW fight?

(and for the Rocky fans, I do not dispute that Rocky landed a good punch in the second fight, but I do think JJW quit)

[Caractacus]

perhaps Nick Tosches has what they use to call in England "Cloth ears"
because in his 2005 memoir
KNOCKING DOWN BARRIERS:My FIGHT FOR BLACK AMERICANS
Truman Gibson wrote in it that although he knew Frankie Carbo
he insitited that no fights were fixed.
(at least the ones with the IBC)

[Caractacus]

I was wondering how this thread got so long. Amazing how many fans call brutal beatings fixed fights. There were a bunch on the Mansour/Breazeale fight recently. Dives don't come with the preclusion that you have to take an inhuman beating for an exact amount of time. Fools act like it's Freddie Ling telling Vandamn you must get punished all the rounds or Archie Moore die!

Saad, do you have an opinion on the second Rocky-JJW fight?

(and for the Rocky fans, I do not dispute that Rocky landed a good punch in the second fight, but I do think JJW quit)

I have an opinion.
The punch The Rock landed would have Knocked unconcious 95.2 percent
of the opponents it had landed flush on.
BTW
When or how many times was Jersey joe Walcott knocked unconcious in a boxing match previous to that anyway ?

[Tuan_Jim]

I was wondering how this thread got so long. Amazing how many fans call brutal beatings fixed fights. There were a bunch on the Mansour/Breazeale fight recently. Dives don't come with the preclusion that you have to take an inhuman beating for an exact amount of time. Fools act like it's Freddie Ling telling Vandamn you must get punished all the rounds or Archie Moore die!

Yeah, Cygnus475 took the unfortunate position of labelling the fight a fix without ever having watched it, vigorously defended that point, watched the fight, realised how stupid his point had been, and now can't bring himself to admit he was wrong. Hence pages of him throwing out distress signals, trying every trick in the book to slip out the thread and save face. "OH, you only have the video to prove the fight is real? No written evidence? Concession accepted!" He's actually used "concession accepted" twice.

The only concession anyone would make to him in this thread is the concession of dumbing down their language in order to be understood by the mentally retarded. He's a troll or a loon, or some weird hybrid.

[Tuan_Jim]

perhaps Nick Tosches has what they use to call in England "Cloth ears"
because in his 2005 memoir
KNOCKING DOWN BARRIERS:My FIGHT FOR BLACK AMERICANS
Truman Gibson wrote in it that although he knew Frankie Carbo
he insitited that no fights were fixed.
(at least the ones with the IBC)

This gets better and better. I wonder if Cygnus475 can bring himself to admit the man he placed all his uncritical faith in might be as unreliable as you would expect an nearly 90 year old crook to be.

[Cygnus475]

No, no. It's all here in the thread. You asked me to "prove" Marciano/Moore was real. You said you would take Tosches' word "over some guy on the internet." And now, finally, you say y*ou have watched the fight as well.

So you've watched Marciano/Moore.... and you think it's 'fake'.

What a tragic & cringeworthy position to have to take.

I said disprove Tosche's arguments...something you have failed to do and just keep spamming the fight on youtube.

I see you are unable to form any constructive counter arguments. Concession accepted.

Toshes presents no arguments. You can't even get that straight. He relates the words of an octagenarian gangster, which don't survive scrutiny. The video of the fight squelches all infantile conspiracy nonsense. The video IS unequivocally, empirically the most articulate counter argument to your embarrassing claim of a fix. You want the proof. There it is!

The fact you have to cling to the fix claim is your concession. Frame it however you want. Your position is nonsense and you have been humiliated here.

I repeat,

There were RUMOURS that Marciano had some fixed fights. I never said I actually believed it. You've been arguing with yourself.

Now respond to the points I made or go jump in a lake. You have spammed this thread for 3 pages with your unhealthy obsession of the man.

Yeah, Cygnus475 took the unfortunate position of labelling the fight a fix without ever having watched it, vigorously defended that point, watched the fight, realised how stupid his point had been, and now can't bring himself to admit he was wrong. Hence pages of him throwing out distress signals, trying every trick in the book to slip out the thread and save face. "OH, you only have the video to prove the fight is real? No written evidence? Concession accepted!" He's actually used "concession accepted" twice.

-I said several pages ago that I've already seen the fight and read about it in Marcianos biography.

-I said there were rumours, I didn't say it was a fact.

-I'm not trying to save face, I think it's perfectly reasonable to put an asterisk on Rocky's record given his brothers fake aliases and mafia connections. I didn't change my position at all.

-Concession accepted.

The only concession anyone would make to him in this thread is the concession of dumbing down their language in order to be understood by the mentally retarded. He's a troll or a loon, or some weird hybrid.

Irrelevant and off topic.

Got anything else?

[ImranSarwar]

Yancey, YUP! : ) "thanks" & on 15 (=3) and on 12 (=3). [If I were the REF, would be 1/1]

[Tuan_Jim]

Presented without comment:

7-I'll take Tosches word over some guy on the internet unless you have evidence to refute it.

[Tuan_Jim]

Still sticking to the fix line.

If they kept him in the dark about other fixed matches that doesn't automatically mean the ones they mentioned weren't fixes.

Good job picking only one thing in my post and ignoring the rest. Concession accepted.