Lennox Lewis Versus Ali, Frazier,Foreman, Holmes, And...

[Tuan_Jim]

Lennox Lewis would have beaten them all, if any of those beat Lewis then boxing hasnt progressed in over 30 years. Lewis would have been too strong for any of them.

I know I will get rediculed by saying that but Lewis would have had more power and better training facilities and better diet etc etc. Its called evolution really.

That's quite facile reasoning you're employing their, Mimmy old boy. Evolution plays out over millions of years, not a couple of decades!

A man only need compare, say, a Walcott/Charles bout, or a Liston/Machen, a 60s Ali fight or a Holmes/Norton with any heavyweight title fight of the last decade to see how much technique has declined.

[man]

Lennox Lewis would have beaten them all, if any of those beat Lewis then boxing hasnt progressed in over 30 years. Lewis would have been too strong for any of them.

I know I will get rediculed by saying that but Lewis would have had more power and better training facilities and better diet etc etc. Its called evolution really.

watch holmes-shavers and afterwards any
fight of the last ten years. stunning difference,
but not in the direction that your evolution idea
would indicate.

[man]

Lennox Lewis would have beaten them all, if any of those beat Lewis then boxing hasnt progressed in over 30 years. Lewis would have been too strong for any of them.

I know I will get rediculed by saying that but Lewis would have had more power and better training facilities and better diet etc etc. Its called evolution really.

That's quite facile reasoning you're employing their, Mimmy old boy. Evolution plays out over millions of years, not a couple of decades!

A man only need compare, say, a Walcott/Charles bout, or a Liston/Machen, a 60s Ali fight or a Holmes/Norton with any heavyweight title fight of the last decade to see how much technique has declined.

funny, i wrote almost the same text, before
i saw your post ... :) ...

[Mimmy]

Lennox Lewis would have beaten them all, if any of those beat Lewis then boxing hasnt progressed in over 30 years. Lewis would have been too strong for any of them.

I know I will get rediculed by saying that but Lewis would have had more power and better training facilities and better diet etc etc. Its called evolution really.

That's quite facile reasoning you're employing their, Mimmy old boy. Evolution plays out over millions of years, not a couple of decades!

A man only need compare, say, a Walcott/Charles bout, or a Liston/Machen, a 60s Ali fight or a Holmes/Norton with any heavyweight title fight of the last decade to see how much technique has declined.

I knew it would raise eyebrows but im a great believer that we move on in life and things do get better. I just think Lewis would have been too good for those guys really.

[Tuan_Jim]

Lennox Lewis would have beaten them all, if any of those beat Lewis then boxing hasnt progressed in over 30 years. Lewis would have been too strong for any of them.

I know I will get rediculed by saying that but Lewis would have had more power and better training facilities and better diet etc etc. Its called evolution really.

That's quite facile reasoning you're employing their, Mimmy old boy. Evolution plays out over millions of years, not a couple of decades!

A man only need compare, say, a Walcott/Charles bout, or a Liston/Machen, a 60s Ali fight or a Holmes/Norton with any heavyweight title fight of the last decade to see how much technique has declined.

I knew it would raise eyebrows but im a great believer that we move on in life and things do get better. I just think Lewis would have been too good for those guys really.

That's fair enough mate, but you have to ask yourself, if a man can be outjabbed by low-IQ fighters like Frank Bruno and Ray Mercer, and even Hasim Rahman, and as a consequence become utterly flummoxed and thrown off his game, how does he cope with thinking, conniving, subtly adapting, opening-seeking dangerous men like Ali, Holmes, Walcott, Charles, Louis, Patterson, Norton et al likely outjabbing him and having the equipment to capitalise on his confusion?

[Mimmy]

That's quite facile reasoning you're employing their, Mimmy old boy. Evolution plays out over millions of years, not a couple of decades!

A man only need compare, say, a Walcott/Charles bout, or a Liston/Machen, a 60s Ali fight or a Holmes/Norton with any heavyweight title fight of the last decade to see how much technique has declined.

I knew it would raise eyebrows but im a great believer that we move on in life and things do get better. I just think Lewis would have been too good for those guys really.

That's fair enough mate, but you have to ask yourself, if a man can be outjabbed by low-IQ fighters like Frank Bruno and Ray Mercer, and even Hasim Rahman, and as a consequence become utterly flummoxed and thrown off his game, how does he cope with thinking, conniving, subtly adapting, opening-seeking dangerous men like Ali, Holmes, Walcott, Charles, Louis, Patterson, Norton et al likely outjabbing him and having the equipment to capitalise on his confusion?

Lennox Lewis imo was a great fighter, not invincible but a great fighter. He was a league above the likes of Frank Bruno. Im not saying that every fighter in this millenium would have beaten the above boxers mentioned, Bruno for example would not have beaten Larry Holmes. The subject touched on a very good heavyweight as in Lewis and I stand by what I said in my comments. I think Mike Tyson would have beaten those guys too, Tyson was a mean bstard but left to his own devices. Nurtured correctly Tyson would have beaten Marciano's record im sure. Infact I think Tyson would have beaten Marciano too. I feel Tyson's pure power would have been far too much for those guys in the 50's 60's etc.

[elmersalsa]

The Iron Mike of the 80s would've destroyed Lennox Lewis

[Kurgen22]

"That's quite facile reasoning you're employing their, Mimmy old boy. Evolution plays out over millions of years, not a couple of decades! "

Evolution and sports medicine, health care, training methods and nutrition are different things.

My son's High School Football Team were bigger, stronger and faster than most Div 1 Football Teams in the 1960s.

[jbizzle20]

First post. Lewis was simply a monster at 6'5 240-256 lbs, compared to these guys. For a fighter to have such an incredible mix of size and intelligence on this scale is rivaled only by the Klitschko's (and even then, Lewis is a level above them). None of these men would stand a chance against Lewis when size is factored in. Against Lewis, both Tyson and Holyfield were reduced to a complete laughing stock. Both of them barely looked like professional fighters against Lewis and they were supposed to be the greatest of the 80's/90's. By the time he fought Klitschko, Lewis was basically retired mentally, and only came back to prove doubters wrong. He took the fight on two weeks notice and gave Vitali (an ATG HW) the WORST beating of his career. Only Holmes, Ali, and comeback Foreman had the ring IQ that came closest to matching Steward-era Lewis, from this group. However, when you add in size/athelticism, it's all over. I think prime Holmes has the best chance. Assuming all are in their prime:

vs Ali: Lewis by UD
vs Frazier: Lewis by TKO
vs Foreman (1972): Lewis by TKO
vs Foreman (comeback): Lewis by UD
vs Holmes: Lewis by MD
vs Liston: Lewis by KO
vs Marciano: Lewis by TKO

[Tuan_Jim]

Evolution and sports medicine, health care, training methods and nutrition are different things.

My son's High School Football Team were bigger, stronger and faster than most Div 1 Football Teams in the 1960s.

So explain to me exactly what 'sports medicine, health care, training methods and nutrition' mean & how they will make Lennox Lewis win a head to head with a Louis, Ali, Holmes et al.

Everyone who cites these modern advancements always seems to become vague when asked to define what they are.

[Tuan_Jim]

First post. Lewis was simply a monster at 6'5 240-256 lbs, compared to these guys. For a fighter to have such an incredible mix of size and intelligence on this scale is rivaled only by the Klitschko's (and even then, Lewis is a level above them). None of these men would stand a chance against Lewis when size is factored in. Against Lewis, both Tyson and Holyfield were reduced to a complete laughing stock. Both of them barely looked like professional fighters against Lewis and they were supposed to be the greatest of the 80's/90's. By the time he fought Klitschko, Lewis was basically retired mentally, and only came back to prove doubters wrong. He took the fight on two weeks notice and gave Vitali (an ATG HW) the WORST beating of his career. Only Holmes, Ali, and comeback Foreman had the ring IQ that came closest to matching Steward-era Lewis, from this group. However, when you add in size/athelticism, it's all over. I think prime Holmes has the best chance. Assuming all are in their prime:

vs Ali: Lewis by UD
vs Frazier: Lewis by TKO
vs Foreman (1972): Lewis by TKO
vs Foreman (comeback): Lewis by UD
vs Holmes: Lewis by MD
vs Liston: Lewis by KO
vs Marciano: Lewis by TKO

Tyson and Holyfield reduced to a "laughing stock"? A fat, shot 36 year old Tyson wobbled Lewis with a jab. The waning 37 year old Holyfield won the rematch in the opinion of many ringside.

Note the alibi afford the old Lewis vs Vitali. The old Tyson and Holyfield are permitted none vs Lewis.

A silly and over the top appraisal of Lewis.

[wouter]

Evolution and sports medicine, health care, training methods and nutrition are different things.

My son's High School Football Team were bigger, stronger and faster than most Div 1 Football Teams in the 1960s.

So explain to me exactly what 'sports medicine, health care, training methods and nutrition' mean & how they will make Lennox Lewis win a head to head with a Louis, Ali, Holmes et al.

Everyone who cites these modern advancements always seems to become vague when asked to define what they are.

I think Lewis might benefit from modern medicine and healthcare, but more so after a fight with Louis than beforehand.

[Ezzard]

Evolution and sports medicine, health care, training methods and nutrition are different things.

My son's High School Football Team were bigger, stronger and faster than most Div 1 Football Teams in the 1960s.

So explain to me exactly what 'sports medicine, health care, training methods and nutrition' mean & how they will make Lennox Lewis win a head to head with a Louis, Ali, Holmes et al.

Everyone who cites these modern advancements always seems to become vague when asked to define what they are.

It's like claiming to be more intelligent than Einstein because he didn't know how to use an iPhone.

[Kurgen22]

In every single sport athletes are bigger, stronger and faster. But I guess boxing is the one that has sort of mystique about it that defies that.
While the lesser weights may not have been at a disadvantage you put a 6'5 245 pound Lennox Lewis against Frazier, Patterson and Marciano he would beat them like he caught them stealing chickens. Holmes and Ali Probably have a chance of outboxing him if they had a good night. Liston and Foreman Never fought anyone that big, strong and quick, but they would have a puncher's chance.

[Tuan_Jim]

In every single sport athletes are bigger, stronger and faster. But I guess boxing is the one that has sort of mystique about it that defies that.
While the lesser weights may not have been at a disadvantage you put a 6'5 245 pound Lennox Lewis against Frazier, Patterson and Marciano he would beat them like he caught them stealing chickens. Holmes and Ali Probably have a chance of outboxing him if they had a good night. Liston and Foreman Never fought anyone that big, strong and quick, but they would have a puncher's chance.

There has always been giants in the heavyweights. They always came unstuck against a mobile, human-sized heavyweight who could employ speed & technique to work around the massive size disadvantage. Of course with technique (and apparently peak fitness) now extinct among the heavyweights, size of course wins out. There isn't the skill anymore to negate size.

Anyone who can look at Lewis/Vitali or Fury/Wladimir and believe that technique has advanced in time with weight training and nutrition has a better imagination than I do. It seems like one has come to completely replace the other.

In fact Lewis' bulk seemed a massive handicap when the 36 year old beer barrel Ray Mercer outjabbed him and roughed him up. He didn't even have the energy to produce a big finish in the 10th round. His bulk didn't look like some brilliant sports advancement when Zeljko Mavrovic, a man in the early stages of a wasting disease, set a fervid pace and pushed Lewis to the brink of exhaustion. These giants must be relieved they came after the days of the 15 rounders.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Evolution and sports medicine, health care, training methods and nutrition are different things.

My son's High School Football Team were bigger, stronger and faster than most Div 1 Football Teams in the 1960s.

So explain to me exactly what 'sports medicine, health care, training methods and nutrition' mean & how they will make Lennox Lewis win a head to head with a Louis, Ali, Holmes et al.

Everyone who cites these modern advancements always seems to become vague when asked to define what they are.

I think Lewis might benefit from modern medicine and healthcare, but more so after a fight with Louis than beforehand.

[Bard of Boxrec]

In every single sport athletes are bigger, stronger and faster. But I guess boxing is the one that has sort of mystique about it that defies that.
While the lesser weights may not have been at a disadvantage you put a 6'5 245 pound Lennox Lewis against Frazier, Patterson and Marciano he would beat them like he caught them stealing chickens. Holmes and Ali Probably have a chance of outboxing him if they had a good night. Liston and Foreman Never fought anyone that big, strong and quick, but they would have a puncher's chance.

There has always been giants in the heavyweights. They always came unstuck against a mobile, human-sized heavyweight who could employ speed & technique to work around the massive size disadvantage. Of course with technique (and apparently peak fitness) now extinct among the heavyweights, size of course wins out. There isn't the skill anymore to negate size.

Anyone who can look at Lewis/Vitali or Fury/Wladimir and believe that technique has advanced in time with weight training and nutrition has a better imagination than I do. It seems like one has come to completely replace the other.

In fact Lewis' bulk seemed a massive handicap when the 36 year old beer barrel Ray Mercer outjabbed him and roughed him up. He didn't even have the energy to produce a big finish in the 10th round. His bulk didn't look like some brilliant sports advancement when Zeljko Mavrovic, a man in the early stages of a wasting disease, set a fervid pace and pushed Lewis to the brink of exhaustion. These giants must be relieved they came after the days of the 15 rounders.

I don't think there is anything that can be done to stop the 'OMG BUT LOOK HOW BIG AND STRONG HEAVYWEIGHTS HAVE BECOME' brigade.

[jbizzle20]

In every single sport athletes are bigger, stronger and faster. But I guess boxing is the one that has sort of mystique about it that defies that.
While the lesser weights may not have been at a disadvantage you put a 6'5 245 pound Lennox Lewis against Frazier, Patterson and Marciano he would beat them like he caught them stealing chickens. Holmes and Ali Probably have a chance of outboxing him if they had a good night. Liston and Foreman Never fought anyone that big, strong and quick, but they would have a puncher's chance.

There has always been giants in the heavyweights. They always came unstuck against a mobile, human-sized heavyweight who could employ speed & technique to work around the massive size disadvantage. Of course with technique (and apparently peak fitness) now extinct among the heavyweights, size of course wins out. There isn't the skill anymore to negate size.

Anyone who can look at Lewis/Vitali or Fury/Wladimir and believe that technique has advanced in time with weight training and nutrition has a better imagination than I do. It seems like one has come to completely replace the other.

In fact Lewis' bulk seemed a massive handicap when the 36 year old beer barrel Ray Mercer outjabbed him and roughed him up. He didn't even have the energy to produce a big finish in the 10th round. His bulk didn't look like some brilliant sports advancement when Zeljko Mavrovic, a man in the early stages of a wasting disease, set a fervid pace and pushed Lewis to the brink of exhaustion. These giants must be relieved they came after the days of the 15 rounders.

Haha, lots of challengers can make themselves look competent for a few rounds. Mercer gave his all, against Lewis. Lewis handled it like a boss and returned the favor with killer 3 hit combos and rocket uppercuts that would've removed Mercer's head had he not had a neck thicker than a tree stump. Mavrovic set a fervid pace and that's about it. He got outclassed by Lewis' superior technique. Wepner gave Ali all he could handle. Ali could barely throw a punch against Holmes or Berbick. Lewis never looked as horrible as Ali did in those fights. And yes, I do give Lewis a break against Klitschko but Lewis probably didn't even need one. Lewis actually fought decently and screwed up Klitschko's face horribly but Klitschko barely put a dent in Lewis'. Lewis' punches just did more damage than Klitschko's. Tyson and Holyfield could barely land a punch against Lewis.

Btw, don't bother with the Parkinson's argument for Ali. He chose to win by taking hits and outlasting the opponent, that was his style and he suffered the consequences of it. He didn't have to do that. Lewis chose to NOT get hit but still hit the other guy. Lewis upheld boxing's title as the sweet science, not just some toughman competition.

[Tuan_Jim]

In every single sport athletes are bigger, stronger and faster. But I guess boxing is the one that has sort of mystique about it that defies that.
While the lesser weights may not have been at a disadvantage you put a 6'5 245 pound Lennox Lewis against Frazier, Patterson and Marciano he would beat them like he caught them stealing chickens. Holmes and Ali Probably have a chance of outboxing him if they had a good night. Liston and Foreman Never fought anyone that big, strong and quick, but they would have a puncher's chance.

There has always been giants in the heavyweights. They always came unstuck against a mobile, human-sized heavyweight who could employ speed & technique to work around the massive size disadvantage. Of course with technique (and apparently peak fitness) now extinct among the heavyweights, size of course wins out. There isn't the skill anymore to negate size.

Anyone who can look at Lewis/Vitali or Fury/Wladimir and believe that technique has advanced in time with weight training and nutrition has a better imagination than I do. It seems like one has come to completely replace the other.

In fact Lewis' bulk seemed a massive handicap when the 36 year old beer barrel Ray Mercer outjabbed him and roughed him up. He didn't even have the energy to produce a big finish in the 10th round. His bulk didn't look like some brilliant sports advancement when Zeljko Mavrovic, a man in the early stages of a wasting disease, set a fervid pace and pushed Lewis to the brink of exhaustion. These giants must be relieved they came after the days of the 15 rounders.

Haha, lots of challengers can make themselves look competent for a few rounds. Mercer gave his all, against Lewis. Lewis handled it like a boss and returned the favor with killer 3 hit combos and rocket uppercuts that would've removed Mercer's head had he not had a neck thicker than a tree stump. Mavrovic set a fervid pace and that's about it. He got outclassed by Lewis' superior technique. Wepner gave Ali all he could handle. Ali could barely throw a punch against Holmes or Berbick. Lewis never looked as horrible as Ali did in those fights. And yes, I do give Lewis a break against Klitschko but Lewis probably didn't even need one. Lewis actually fought decently and screwed up Klitschko's face horribly but Klitschko barely put a dent in Lewis'. Lewis' punches just did more damage than Klitschko's. Tyson and Holyfield could barely land a punch against Lewis.

Btw, don't bother with the Parkinson's argument for Ali. He chose to win by taking hits and outlasting the opponent, that was his style and he suffered the consequences of it. He didn't have to do that. Lewis chose to NOT get hit but still hit the other guy. Lewis upheld boxing's title as the sweet science, not just some toughman competition.

"Don't bother with the Parkinson's argument for Ali."

It's always telling when a man requests you don't debate the facts with him. 'I want to hold the Holmes and Berbick fights against Ali, but I don't want us to draw attention to his poor health because it will expose the flimsiness of my argument.'

"Tyson and Holyfield could barely land a punch against Lewis." Would that have anything to do with Tyson and Holyfield being closer to 40 than they were even to 30? Oh that's right, you skirt around the facts.

Since we're burying our heads in the sand at any sign of context then Lewis' two one-punch knockout losses to McCall and Rahman become even more damning. What great heavyweight champ in history got stretched for the 10-count, losing his title to a man as limited as Hasim Rahman?

[BoxBuzz]

Evolution and sports medicine, health care, training methods and nutrition are different things.

My son's High School Football Team were bigger, stronger and faster than most Div 1 Football Teams in the 1960s.

So explain to me exactly what 'sports medicine, health care, training methods and nutrition' mean & how they will make Lennox Lewis win a head to head with a Louis, Ali, Holmes et al.

Everyone who cites these modern advancements always seems to become vague when asked to define what they are.

I think Lewis might benefit from modern medicine and healthcare, but more so after a fight with Louis than beforehand.

This!

[jbizzle20]

There has always been giants in the heavyweights. They always came unstuck against a mobile, human-sized heavyweight who could employ speed & technique to work around the massive size disadvantage. Of course with technique (and apparently peak fitness) now extinct among the heavyweights, size of course wins out. There isn't the skill anymore to negate size.

Anyone who can look at Lewis/Vitali or Fury/Wladimir and believe that technique has advanced in time with weight training and nutrition has a better imagination than I do. It seems like one has come to completely replace the other.

In fact Lewis' bulk seemed a massive handicap when the 36 year old beer barrel Ray Mercer outjabbed him and roughed him up. He didn't even have the energy to produce a big finish in the 10th round. His bulk didn't look like some brilliant sports advancement when Zeljko Mavrovic, a man in the early stages of a wasting disease, set a fervid pace and pushed Lewis to the brink of exhaustion. These giants must be relieved they came after the days of the 15 rounders.

Haha, lots of challengers can make themselves look competent for a few rounds. Mercer gave his all, against Lewis. Lewis handled it like a boss and returned the favor with killer 3 hit combos and rocket uppercuts that would've removed Mercer's head had he not had a neck thicker than a tree stump. Mavrovic set a fervid pace and that's about it. He got outclassed by Lewis' superior technique. Wepner gave Ali all he could handle. Ali could barely throw a punch against Holmes or Berbick. Lewis never looked as horrible as Ali did in those fights. And yes, I do give Lewis a break against Klitschko but Lewis probably didn't even need one. Lewis actually fought decently and screwed up Klitschko's face horribly but Klitschko barely put a dent in Lewis'. Lewis' punches just did more damage than Klitschko's. Tyson and Holyfield could barely land a punch against Lewis.

Btw, don't bother with the Parkinson's argument for Ali. He chose to win by taking hits and outlasting the opponent, that was his style and he suffered the consequences of it. He didn't have to do that. Lewis chose to NOT get hit but still hit the other guy. Lewis upheld boxing's title as the sweet science, not just some toughman competition.

"Don't bother with the Parkinson's argument for Ali."

It's always telling when a man requests you don't debate the facts with him. 'I want to hold the Holmes and Berbick fights against Ali, but I don't want us to draw attention to his poor health because it will expose the flimsiness of my argument.'

"Tyson and Holyfield could barely land a punch against Lewis." Would that have anything to do with Tyson and Holyfield being closer to 40 than they were even to 30? Oh that's right, you skirt around the facts.

Since we're burying our heads in the sand at any sign of context then Lewis' two one-punch knockout losses to McCall and Rahman become even more damning. What great heavyweight champ in history got stretched for the 10-count, losing his title to a man as limited as Hasim Rahman?

Lewis was 33 and 34 against Holyfield and 36 against Tyson. Yeah, age was really a factor there, NOT! Lewis, who was 37, and took the fight on 2 weeks notice, by the time he stepped into the ring against Klitschko (an ATG), f----d up Klitschko's face and gave him the worst beating of his career (a career that would include an 87% KO percentage and never being behind on a score card, ever). Ali was 38 against Holmes and 39 against Berbick. Due to the accumulation of punishment from years of his "take punches but outlast the other guy" strategy, Ali developed Parkinson's. Lewis did not take such punishment on a regular basis. Instead, he chose to avoid getting hit but hit the other guy. See the difference? Lewis chose the smarter path that enabled him to last longer at peak form than the other. No, Lewis didn't have Ali's chin but Ali lost to his share of sub-par competition (Spinks, Berbick). Lewis returned the favor, in epic fashion, against Rahman and sent the Rock into irrelevancy. Ali lost to a guy who would get TKO'd in the 1st round by Gerrie Coetzee. It's called luck, ever heard of it? On another note, Ali had a celebrity image and mouth, Lewis did not. It's why people think that Ali would actually be favored over Lewis. American celebrity status often inflates a fighter beyond their true capabilities (See Tyson, Mike). If you actually sized up Ali and Lewis based on career performance and size, you'd see that Ali would be a long shot against Lewis but, sadly, celebrity trumps reality with too many people when it comes to Ali.

[Keko]

vs Ali: Ali by UD
vs Frazier: Lewis by UD
vs Holmes: Holmes by UD
vs Foreman: Foreman by KO
vs Liston: Lewis by KO
vs Marciano: Lewis by UD
vs Patterson : Lewis by TKO