OK I confess. I'm on the AJ train.

[mickey1975]

Lennox getting iced by even more inferior opponents, twice, doesn't matter to some...

[SNG]

Lennox getting iced by even more inferior opponents, twice, doesn't matter to some...

I think it's easier to dismiss as anomalies because we have the entire career to look at now, I imagine at the time people were very critical. I was young so don't really remember the press at the time of both losses.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Lennox getting iced by even more inferior opponents, twice, doesn't matter to some...

McCall and Rahman even more inferior? No. Rahman beat sanders so that's fairly cut and dried. McCall was vastly superior to all of wlad's conquerors

[BitPlayer]

ok, i'll do a short version, and then hopefully we can get the thread back on track.

plus points, powerful, good jab, dominant albeit over a substandard era of heavyweights.

negative points: beaten 4 times, stopped 3 times by substandard foes. down around 10 times, nearly lost to sam friggen peter. best win povetkin??? limited punch artillery (jab right hand, very occasional left hook but not so much latterly), no inside game, low workrate, reliance on fouling by pushing and grabbing (see his best win), only avenged one defeat and it was when the guy was shot.

That's quite a collection of detriments for an all-time great, but I'm sure they don't matter to a lot of people

Why are you willing to do all that but not just list those you think have surpassed his achievements? Also I'm curious do you consider Rocky Marciano an all time great?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

ok, i'll do a short version, and then hopefully we can get the thread back on track.

plus points, powerful, good jab, dominant albeit over a substandard era of heavyweights.

negative points: beaten 4 times (So was Ali), stopped 3 times by substandard foes (Jack Dempsey). down around 10 times (Joe Louis), nearly lost to sam friggen peter (Louis nearly lost to Billy Conn - a light heavyweight, Ali nearly lost to Doug Jones - also a light heavyweight). best win povetkin??? (Rocky Marciano's best win - against an ancient Jersey Joe Walcott) limited punch artillery (jab right hand, very occasional left hook but not so much latterly) (again, Rocky Marciano), no inside game (Muhammad Ali, Floyd Patterson, some fighters are suited to having an inside game nor are they built for it) low workrate (based on the fact he is a counter-puncher and a heavyweight - why would he be penalised for that when it is based on the workrate of the opposition), reliance on fouling by pushing and grabbing (see his best win) (Hahaha - Rocky Marciano, Evander Holyfield), only avenged one defeat and it was when the guy was shot (Mike Tyson avenged none of his defeats).

That's quite a collection of detriments for an all-time great, but I'm sure they don't matter to a lot of people

You forgot his olympic gold medal, he actually unified the belts in a time when that is nearly impossible, and apart from Ali's era, the depth of opposition has always been pretty weak in the heavyweight division, you obviously never heard of Joe Louis 'Bum of the Month' club - compared to what Louis faced, Klitsckho faced far superior opponents, also, he fought in an era where the whole world and their heavyweights were open to face him, Ali was probably lucky (or maybe not) that Teofilo Stevenson wasn't on hand to turn pro - what would have happened? We don't know, but there wasn't just him, but also a load of eastern bloc hard cases like Simon, Yayev, Yemeyaov. Say what you want - Klitsckho is a true world champion - something not many of them were until Ali, until then, it was as much of a world championship as the 'world series' in baseball, where the odd Brit, European and sometimes Canadian, Australian or South American was allowed to compete. Also, he has ducked absolutely no-one, everyone who has deserved a shot at the world title has got it, lot's of champions ducked hard and dangerous contenders - more often than not by drawing a colour line - including some of the all time greats, you might say this era of contenders aren't impressive, but there might only be one or two eras where the depth of opposition was of a very high standard.

So, that is a bit more of an even handed history of it all, you're welcome.

Nobody minds you not rating him, but when you refuse to acknolwedge his achievements against other fighters - that aint good in my opinion

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

ok, i'll do a short version, and then hopefully we can get the thread back on track.

plus points, powerful, good jab, dominant albeit over a substandard era of heavyweights.

negative points: beaten 4 times, stopped 3 times by substandard foes. down around 10 times, nearly lost to sam friggen peter. best win povetkin??? limited punch artillery (jab right hand, very occasional left hook but not so much latterly), no inside game, low workrate, reliance on fouling by pushing and grabbing (see his best win), only avenged one defeat and it was when the guy was shot.

That's quite a collection of detriments for an all-time great, but I'm sure they don't matter to a lot of people

Why are you willing to do all that but not just list those you think have surpassed his achievements? Also I'm curious do you consider Rocky Marciano an all time great?

Don't hold you breath, he isn't capable of it.

[Bard of Boxrec]

See, this is why we don't talk about something entirely irrelevant in a thread. Here's a thought, seeing as you're so concerned about it why don't one of you resurrect one of the umpteen 'where does wlad rank all time' threads and I will probably regurgitate whatever I had undoubtedly written already in that thread and all the others. Just do a search, boxrec wlad all time or something.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

See, this is why we don't talk about something entirely irrelevant in a thread.

Says who, I didn't know there was this boxrec rulebook, you brought up the subject, no-one else did.

Here's a thought, seeing as you're so concerned about it why don't one of you resurrect one of the umpteen 'where does wlad rank all time' threads and I will probably regurgitate whatever I had undoubtedly written already in that thread and all the others.

You brought it up right here, so we can discuss it right here, that is how the internet works, you make a stupid comment and people can challenge it. You're pissed off because the post you made was discceted into little pieces.

Here is a thought, don't bring up points you can't back up.

Just do a search, boxrec wlad all time or something.

Nah, I know it is only going to be more shite. If you don't want to discuss it, then don't bring it up.

[Bard of Boxrec]

I didn't bring it up.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

I didn't bring it up.

You brought your point up, and repeated it ad nauseum - so it is there to be challenged, as if I am going to trawl through any of your past shite... it's Sunday! Even here in China.

[Bard of Boxrec]

I didn't bring it up.

You brought your point up, and repeated it ad nauseum - so it is there to be challenged, as if I am going to trawl through any of your past shite... it's Sunday! Even here in China.

I didn't bring up anything to do with wlad that wasn't connected to Joshua in some way. Now you're spouting random crap about wlad being in the top ten all time. It's as irrelevant to the thread as if I started talking about stonemasonry or why the Everly Brothers didn't get along. You're the one who mentioned the wlad stuff, so if you care that much you can take it elsewhere

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Now you're spouting random crap about wlad being in the top ten all time.

Name 10 heavyweight fighters who achieved more, go on, it will be easy if I am talking crap.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Now you're spouting random crap about wlad being in the top ten all time.

Name 10 heavyweight fighters who achieved more, go on, it will be easy if I am talking crap.

Isn't it bedtime in China yet?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Now you're spouting random crap about wlad being in the top ten all time.

Name 10 heavyweight fighters who achieved more, go on, it will be easy if I am talking crap.

Isn't it bedtime in China yet?

You're fornicating clueless.

What you know about boxing, you can write on the back of a stamp.

I'll wait for your list of ten better heavyweight fighters than Wlad, don't worry, it'll keep.

[Tomasino]

Name 10 heavyweight fighters who achieved more, go on, it will be easy if I am talking crap.

Isn't it bedtime in China yet?

You're effing clueless.

What you know about boxing, you can write on the back of a stamp.

I'll wait for your list of ten better heavyweight fighters than Wlad, don't worry, it'll keep.

Joe Louis, Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Rocky Marciano, George Foreman.

Just because it is easy to do, but I don't want dragged into this argument you have been having for years

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Isn't it bedtime in China yet?

You're effing clueless.

What you know about boxing, you can write on the back of a stamp.

I'll wait for your list of ten better heavyweight fighters than Wlad, don't worry, it'll keep.

Joe Louis, Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Rocky Marciano, George Foreman.

Just because it is easy to do, but I don't want dragged into this argument you have been having for years

Joe Louis (fought on average, a worst list of contenders than Wlad)
Riddick Bowe (Very short reign)
Joe Frazier (defended against poor opposition bar Ali during his reign as undisputed champ)
Sonny Liston (Defended his title successfully once)
Rocky Marciano (defended title against some woeful challengers)

I think you are mistaking who would beat Wlad or who was the better fighter than him - are you really trying to say the achievements of Bowe, Marciano or Liston as world heavyweight champion were superior to Klitsckho's?

[Bard of Boxrec]

Isn't it bedtime in China yet?

You're effing clueless.

What you know about boxing, you can write on the back of a stamp.

I'll wait for your list of ten better heavyweight fighters than Wlad, don't worry, it'll keep.

Joe Louis, Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Rocky Marciano, George Foreman.

Just because it is easy to do, but I don't want dragged into this argument you have been having for years

Thanks a lot mate, now he's going to bore on and pollute this thread with his crap for pages and pages.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

You're effing clueless.

What you know about boxing, you can write on the back of a stamp.

I'll wait for your list of ten better heavyweight fighters than Wlad, don't worry, it'll keep.

Joe Louis, Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Rocky Marciano, George Foreman.

Just because it is easy to do, but I don't want dragged into this argument you have been having for years

Thanks a lot mate, now he's going to bore on and pollute this thread with his crap for pages and pages.

Instead of you polluting it with your crap.

Have you seen what Tomasino has done - he has named 10 fighters - why can't you do the same? It is dead easy.

How could you have been a member here for 13 years and still be as clueless as you are about the sport...

Or is it just an obsession with muscular blokes?

[Bard of Boxrec]

Stop embarrassing yourself and go to bed. It must have been a hard day for you.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Stop embarrassing yourself and go to bed. It must have been a hard day for you.

Reading your shite is hard work - yes.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Stop embarrassing yourself and go to bed. It must have been a hard day for you.

Reading your shite is hard work - yes.

I know you're devastated that I don't rate wlad as high as you do, but that's no reason to take it out on the Anthony Joshua thread.

[Tomasino]

You're effing clueless.

What you know about boxing, you can write on the back of a stamp.

I'll wait for your list of ten better heavyweight fighters than Wlad, don't worry, it'll keep.

Joe Louis, Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Larry Holmes, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, Evander Holyfield, Mike Tyson, Rocky Marciano, George Foreman.

Just because it is easy to do, but I don't want dragged into this argument you have been having for years

Joe Louis (fought on average, a worst list of contenders than Wlad)
Riddick Bowe (Very short reign)
Joe Frazier (defended against poor opposition bar Ali during his reign as undisputed champ)
Sonny Liston (Defended his title successfully once)
Rocky Marciano (defended title against some woeful challengers)

I think you are mistaking who would beat Wlad or who was the better fighter than him - are you really trying to say the achievements of Bowe, Marciano or Liston as world heavyweight champion were superior to Klitsckho's?

No, just that those fighters are far superior. I only really read one post of your argument, the one I replied to

[Bard of Boxrec]

negative points: beaten 4 times (So was Ali), stopped 3 times by substandard foes (Jack Dempsey). down around 10 times (Joe Louis), nearly lost to sam friggen peter (Louis nearly lost to Billy Conn - a light heavyweight, Ali nearly lost to Doug Jones - also a light heavyweight). best win povetkin??? (Rocky Marciano's best win - against an ancient Jersey Joe Walcott) limited punch artillery (jab right hand, very occasional left hook but not so much latterly) (again, Rocky Marciano), no inside game (Muhammad Ali, Floyd Patterson, some fighters are suited to having an inside game nor are they built for it) low workrate (based on the fact he is a counter-puncher and a heavyweight - why would he be penalised for that when it is based on the workrate of the opposition), reliance on fouling by pushing and grabbing (see his best win) (Hahaha - Rocky Marciano, Evander Holyfield), only avenged one defeat and it was when the guy was shot (Mike Tyson avenged none of his defeats).

Haha, only just noticed he dissected this. Git, you don't seem to understand that it isn't worth much to scour the annals of heavyweight history looking for different ATG heavyweights who each happen to fit one of those descriptions I listed. If you want to be credible, you have to find someone who fits at least most of those descriptions who also belongs in the top 10. Good luck with that, although I'm sure someone exists in your head.

Anyway, you got me talking about Wlad, so I guess you think you won in some way. Congratulations. This is my last post about Wlad in this thread.

Joshua Train! CHOO CHOO! WHO NECKS?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Haha, only just noticed he dissected this. Git, you don't seem to understand that it isn't worth much to scour the annals of heavyweight history looking for different ATG heavyweights who each happen to fit one of those descriptions I listed. If you want to be credible, you have to find someone who fits at least most of those descriptions who also belongs in the top 10. Good luck with that, although I'm sure someone exists in your head.

Give me your top ten and I will do it very easily.

Anyway, you got me talking about Wlad, so I guess you think you won in some way. Congratulations. This is my last post about Wlad in this thread.

I couldn't give a shite, you're not important.