Who was the better World Heavyweight Champion?

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 13 Feb 2006, 12:46

Between these 2 boxers, who was the best Heavyweight Champion...

(Please ignore everything they did up to the point where they won the Heavyweight title).

Rocky Marciano
Champion from September 1952 to September 1955. (36 months)
6 succesful title defences in 3 years...

Lennox Lewis
Champion from May 1993 to September 1994. (16 months)
+ from February 1997 to November 2000. (47 months)
+ from November 2001 to June 2003. (18 months)

15 successful title defences in (overall 81 months)

Who was the better champion

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 13 Feb 2006, 13:00

Crease wrote:Between these 2 boxers, who was the best Heavyweight Champion...

(Please ignore everything they did up to the point where they won the Heavyweight title).

Rocky Marciano
Champion from September 1952 to September 1955. (36 months)
6 succesful title defences in 3 years...

Lennox Lewis
Champion from May 1993 to September 1994. (16 months)
+ from February 1997 to November 2000. (47 months)
+ from November 2001 to June 2003. (18 months)

15 successful title defences in (overall 81 months)

Who was the better champion

I'm going to take a hit on this one. Lennox Lewis was the better fighter and the better champion. Take your shots! I think I'll disappear from the board for a while now.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 13 Feb 2006, 13:25

evndrbsn wrote:
Crease wrote:Between these 2 boxers, who was the best Heavyweight Champion...

(Please ignore everything they did up to the point where they won the Heavyweight title).

Rocky Marciano
Champion from September 1952 to September 1955. (36 months)
6 succesful title defences in 3 years...

Lennox Lewis
Champion from May 1993 to September 1994. (16 months)
+ from February 1997 to November 2000. (47 months)
+ from November 2001 to June 2003. (18 months)

15 successful title defences in (overall 81 months)

Who was the better champion
I'm going to take a hit on this one. Lennox Lewis was the better fighter and the better champion. Take your shots! I think I'll disappear from the board for a while now.

did rocky lose his title twice by KO to 2nd rate contenders?

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 13 Feb 2006, 14:00

Lewis. But Marciano's achievements are far more impressive - he was often at the physical disadvantage, the skill disadvantage, the experience disadvantage, yet still remained undefeated, with a gaudy knockout percentage.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 13 Feb 2006, 14:32

Hmmm, one guy beat all of his challengers while the other had his reigns interuppted by KO defeats to C graders . . . I go with the first guy!

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 13 Feb 2006, 14:35

As a Lewis fan I would say Lewis. As you point out Lewis dominated for longer. However Marciano beat everyone in front of him and being an undefeated champion is something. However if they fought I would say Lewis would win on points or maybe, just maybe KO Marciano but that would be tough. I just can't see Marciano beating Lewis. But does being undefeated necessarily mean that you are better than someone else? I don't think so. And is Marciano's era better than the one Lewis fought in?
I think too much is made of Lewis defeats because he avenged them which is what all great champions do. Tyson getting beat by Douglas was a bigger upset but this doesn't seem to sway people away from Tyson's feats as champion. McCall and Rahman may have been 2nd rate but you can't deny they could both hit.

As regards Lewis defeats I think the McCall fight was stopped way too early. Lewis was a young fighter, hadn't been in lots of tough fights and had never been knocked down. He got up, on shaky legs yes, but he got up. Why don't people ever mentiont that? They always say he got Koed twice. Look at boxers who were in alot worse condition and took more punishment than Lewis and were allowed to continue. I'm seen refs literally drag fighters up off the floor. Lewis gets knocked down for the first time and the ref stops it. Thats a bit suspious to me.

As for the Rahman KO that punch would have Koed any HW in history including Ali, Marciano, Tyson etc. Lewis was winning the fight and got caught by a sucker punch. That can happen to anyone including the best.
No-one makes a deal of the fact that every time Tyson was knocked down he lost. Exactly like Lewis. Too me that says one thing - You have to KO them to beat them. Thats shows they are tough!

Louis was Koed by Schemling in a big upset. Does that take away from what he achieved? No. If you take Tyson-Douglas, Louis-Schemling, Lewis-McCall and Lewis-Rahman and look at the bettinbg which were the biggest upsets? Also where were Douglas, McCall, Rahman and Schemling ranked when they fought the champions. Getting beaten by an outsider shouldn't take away from a boxers achievements especially if they avenge those defeats (Robinson v Turpin is a good example).

Overall you could say Marciano was a better champion because he was undeated but Lewis reigned for longer, had more defences and I think he would beat Marciano.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 13 Feb 2006, 14:57

Marciano far better than Lewis who suffered bad KO defeats to fringe contenders.

Lewis is a league below Marciano

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 14 Feb 2006, 05:21

Even though Marciano's reign was shorter, I'd say that the crop of fighters he defeated as champion are more impressive than the crop that Lewis defeated.

Marciano:

KO 1 Jersey Joe Walcott
TKO 11 Roland LaStarza
UD 15 Ezzard Charles
KO 8 Ezzard Charles
KO 9 Don Cockell
KO 9 Archie Moore

Lewis (Lewis' reign as champion starts after he defeated Shannon Briggs...his first reign was as a paper champion):

UD 12 Zeljko Mavrovic
D 12 Evander Holyfield
UD 12 Evander Holyfield
KO 2 Michael Grant
TKO 2 Francois Botha
UD 12 David Tua

L KO 5 Hasim Rahman

KO 4 Hasim Rahman
KO 8 Mike Tyson
TKO 6 Vitali Klitschko

The knock against Marciano is usually that he fought former champions who were well past their prime (Walcott, Charles, Moore). To those who knock the Rock (hey I rhymed!), look at Lewis' reign. The only two fighters Lewis beat who you can ever say in the same sentence as Walcott, LaStarza, Moore and Charles are Holyfield and Tyson. Holyfield was well past his prime in both fights with Lewis and Tyson...well..he was a shell of a shell of his former self. Throw in that Lewis got KO'd by Rahman in the middle of his reign and I'd have to say that Marciano had the better reign than Lewis. 4 of Marciano's defenses were against all-time greats, LaStarza is one of the best heavyweights to never win the title IMO and could have been a champion in a number of different eras, and though I don't know much about Don Cockell, I'm guessing that he couldn't have been any worse than Frans Botha. One last thing, even though Walcott and Moore were both older when they fought Marciano, they weren't past their primes. As BB49 loves to point out, Walcott didn't even reach his prime until he was 38 or 39

.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 14 Feb 2006, 08:15

Well put argument and I tend to agree even though I am a Lewis fan. However I still think Lewis would beat Marciano.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 14 Feb 2006, 09:05

I dont think Lewis will be remembered in boxing folklore as Marciano is, but as a fighter id put him higher; I think hed crush Rocky in the first 5 rounds. Lewis' losses against McCall and Rahman will always be held against him especially by American boxing fans. People should also remember how he beat Ruddock, Holyfield, Tyson and how Bowe chucked his WBC belt away rather than face Lennox

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 15 Feb 2006, 11:48

It seems to me these Marciano debates really are centred around the size differentials. Marciano's record & reputation are beyond reproach.
He was beating hall of famers & is one himself. You could just as easily substitute Jeffries, or Dempsey's name in this debate. What you are really asking is to-day better than yesterday? As years pass, yesterday gets forgotten. How many of us, talk anymore of the champion of champions,
The great John L, himself. Does that make him any less great? How will Lewis be judged 50 years from now vs. Marciano when both are yesterdays. Rocky would find a way to win. He always did.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Feb 2006, 13:31

It seems to me these Marciano debates really are centred around the size differentials. Marciano's record & reputation are beyond reproach

u said it perfectley

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 24 Feb 2006, 10:31

Admirable sentiments, Bill.Lockhart & I agree with them completly.

I've siad it once and I'll say it agian, I JUST CANNOT SEE ANYONE (in the entire history of Heavyweight Competion) DEFEATING ROCKY MARCIANO.

HE WAS THE GREATEST, in my book...

But then there's people on these thread who're using bs stats and facts trying to say that the likes of Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis and the like are better fighters than "The Brockton Blockbuster", and that they would defeat him...

I've even heard it being said than Foreman would KO Rocky...I don't think so...

Rocky never stopped punching, Foreman did!

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 24 Feb 2006, 10:36

I think Marciano's record is fantastic ans is better than Lewis'. But I still think Leiws would beat him not because of body size but because he is a better boxer.

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 24 Feb 2006, 10:58

So, was Rocky Marciano KOing the likes of Joe Louis, JJ Walcott, Ezzard Charles and Archie just 1 offs.

He battered Louis to a pulp before "The Brown Bomber" decided to fall...

Walcott was destroyed after the 2nd fight with Marcinao, Rocky broke his spirit.

Charles foguth well the first fight and the 2nd fight he was abolished in the final round, he didn't know what hit him.

And Moore was convincingly KOd by the Rock, that you can't deny.

Lewis lost to fighters like Rahman, hardly legnedary material, eh Arsenal.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 24 Feb 2006, 11:04

If you read my post I am not saying Lewis fought better fighters. What I am saying is Lewis would beat Marciano. I'm comparing the two fighters. Its not to do with their oppenents, they can only beat whos in front of them. You could argue that Marciano and Louis fought in era that were not the strongest but you can't argue with their records. However what you can do is compare them with other boxers and decide whether they would beat guys from other era's.

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 24 Feb 2006, 11:09

Yes, but you're only after saying that Marciano wasn't in the "strongest era of boxing" so, was Lennox Lewis in the strongest era of boxing with classic fights such as Rahman, an expired Mike Tyson and yes, of course, no-one can forget the legnedary Botha or Tua.

ohhhhhhhhhh, SCARY BEANS!

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 24 Feb 2006, 11:23

Well most of Marciano's best oppenents were old men and past their prime!

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 24 Feb 2006, 11:28

I know, cause Tyson was in his prime when Lewis sparked him out...

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 24 Feb 2006, 11:36

Exactly!

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 24 Feb 2006, 13:24

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
evndrbsn wrote:
Crease wrote:Between these 2 boxers, who was the best Heavyweight Champion...

(Please ignore everything they did up to the point where they won the Heavyweight title).

Rocky Marciano
Champion from September 1952 to September 1955. (36 months)
6 succesful title defences in 3 years...

Lennox Lewis
Champion from May 1993 to September 1994. (16 months)
+ from February 1997 to November 2000. (47 months)
+ from November 2001 to June 2003. (18 months)

15 successful title defences in (overall 81 months)

Who was the better champion
I'm going to take a hit on this one. Lennox Lewis was the better fighter and the better champion. Take your shots! I think I'll disappear from the board for a while now.

did rocky lose his title twice by KO to 2nd rate contenders?

that sums it up BB....rocky never lost as champ..lennox lost to too not so great fighters..that alone makes rocky better especially because he fought greats like jersey joe..ezzard charles..joe louis..and archie moore. lennox lewis as champ fought who????

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 24 Feb 2006, 13:32

I ended up going with Marciano on this one. Mostly for the reasons already given.

I'll add that like Rocky, Lennox handed out some good beatings for sure...to Tyson and Tua and others. But everytime he was in there with a big hitter you held your breath....admit it. And on two occasions he was swatted out by guys that if he could have been just a little slicker or more durable he probably would have got the better end of it. He had to learn over a 2 fight learning curve in each case.

The Rock learned lessons on a faster scale, he was behind in a few fights and in a 1 fight learning curve always solved the puzzle and brought home the prize.

I'm not going to comment in this thread of who I give the head to head matchup advantage to. I don't think that is the question here.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 24 Feb 2006, 14:04

Here's something to ponder about Marciano. Instead of a hypothetical "what if", let's say that in Rocky's 1950 bout with Roland LaStarza, that he lost the decision. In all fairness, had that happened, it wouldn't go down as one of the worst decisions of all time. That's not to imply that LaStarza really won, but it was a pretty close fight. My point is that had the decision gone to LaStarza, then there'd be no magical 49-0, and in my opinion, Marciano wouldn't be spoken of as one of the all time greats of boxing.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 24 Feb 2006, 14:26

I agree, 0 is just too much to comprehend. Zen masters have been tackling that subject for generations and coming up short. It adds something mystical and creates huge problems in data processing.

How the hell do you factor in perfection? The loss would have put "humanity" into the equation. Seamus I agree that it adds an intangible that no one can factor in with balance.

I mean the computers had Rocky vs Ali as a win for the Rock. But a computer is easily mislead by "nothing" or in this case the number "0".

bill.lockhart · Post by **bill.lockhart** » 24 Feb 2006, 17:36

As physically tough, & strong as Marciano was his greatest advantage
was how mentally tough he was. Their were bigger fighters, stronger fighers, faster fighters, stronger one puch hitters, better boxers, ... despite
his perfect record, he was far from perfect. The thing is, you had to beat him and nobody of his era could. Some argue that some of these fighters were past their best... true enough ... but not far past it. I can only imagine, what a guy like Lennox Lewis would be thinking, as he stood ready to face Marciano. Once you go tin their with him, it was a new ball game.