Champ with toughest opponents on his record.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 13 Feb 2006, 16:27

I gotta go with Sugar Ray Robinson. I know he shoulda fought Burley and a couple others but I think he has fought the toughest opposision.One reason why he is regarded as P.F.P. best by many.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 13 Feb 2006, 16:45

Tough as in tough tough (Chuvalo, Briscoe etc.), or tough as in excellent fighter tough (Harold Johnson, Holman Williams etc.)?

If the latter, then Sammy Angott has by far the best resume of any fighter I know of, including Greb, Charles, LaPorte and whoever.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 13 Feb 2006, 17:01

Decagon wrote:Greb and Ali. Robinson doesn't even compare.

I dont know, Lamotta, Zivic , Basilio, Fullmer ,Maxim, Angott, Bell,Henry Armstrong, Damn tough opponents I dont know how you can say he doesnt compare.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 13 Feb 2006, 17:18

expug wrote:I gotta go with Sugar Ray Robinson. I know he shoulda fought Burley and a couple others but I think he has fought the toughest opposision.One reason why he is regarded as P.F.P. best by many.

Harry Greb probably has more victories over more great fighters than anyone in history.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 13 Feb 2006, 17:29

After years of studying different fighter's records and the quality of opp., I think it's fair to say that Harry Greb's resume stands at the top of the mountain. Simply amazing.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 13 Feb 2006, 17:31

dempseyfire wrote:After years of studying different fighter's records and the quality of opp., I think it's fair to say that Harry Greb's resume stands at the top of the mountain. Simply amazing.

I agree. If one looks into those scores of no-decision bouts it's discovered that Harry won most of them. He boggles my mind.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 13 Feb 2006, 18:22

Here is a list of Champions fought for both Robinson and Greb. Robinson: Denny Moyer, Joey Giardello, Ralph Dupas, Terry Downes, Gene Fullmer, Paul Pender, Carmen Basilio, BoBo Olson, Joey Maxim, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Jake Lamotta, Kid Gavilan, Tommy Bell, Sammy Angott, Henry Armstrong, Marty Servo, Fritzie Zivic. For Greb: Tiger Flowers, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker, Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, Jimmy Slattery, Johnny Wilson, Mike Mctigue, Al Mcoy, Jack Dillon, Mike Odowd, George Chip. I still gotta go with Sugar Ray, but Grebs record is also great. Apologies if I missed any.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 13 Feb 2006, 19:05

Ray fought alotta contenders also. Joey Archer, Rocky Castellani, Tiger Jones, Holly Mimms, Bobby Dykes, Charley Fusari, Robert Villeman, George Costner, Steve Belloise, Georgie Abrams, Artie Levine, Jose Basora.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 13 Feb 2006, 19:11

Check out Sammy Angott's resume then...

Henry Armstrong (my #1 of all time)
Ray Robinson (#2)
Willie Pep (#4)

'Nuff said.

Oh, hang on. Add these lot:

Ike Williams
Beau Jack
Bob Montgomery
Lew Jenkins
Fritzie Zivic
Baby Arizmendi
Freddie Miller

All Hall of Famers.

Then there's the other guys... Champions/contenders such as Petey Sarron, Leo Rodak and Milt Aron. There are another dozen or so world contenders who Sammy faced.

Greatest resume of all time, by a long way

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 13 Feb 2006, 19:18

DoubleM wrote:Check out Sammy Angott's resume then...

Henry Armstrong (my #1 of all time)
Ray Robinson (#2)
Willie Pep (#4)

'Nuff said.

Oh, hang on. Add these lot:

Ike Williams
Beau Jack
Bob Montgomery
Lew Jenkins
Fritzie Zivic
Baby Arizmendi
Freddie Miller

All Hall of Famers.

Then there's the other guys... Champions/contenders such as Petey Sarron, Leo Rodak and Milt Aron. There are another dozen or so world contenders who Sammy faced.

Greatest resume of all time, by a long way

He has a great reume no doubt . And really I would not have known. Maybe it was his style, you dont hear very much about Angott . But as far as fighting champions go I have Robinson fighting 18, Greb fighting 12 and Angott fighting 10.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 13 Feb 2006, 19:24

expug wrote:
DoubleM wrote:Check out Sammy Angott's resume then...

Henry Armstrong (my #1 of all time)
Ray Robinson (#2)
Willie Pep (#4)

'Nuff said.

Oh, hang on. Add these lot:

Ike Williams
Beau Jack
Bob Montgomery
Lew Jenkins
Fritzie Zivic
Baby Arizmendi
Freddie Miller

All Hall of Famers.

Then there's the other guys... Champions/contenders such as Petey Sarron, Leo Rodak and Milt Aron. There are another dozen or so world contenders who Sammy faced.

Greatest resume of all time, by a long way
He has a great reume no doubt . And really I would not have known. Maybe it was his style, you dont hear very much about Angott . But as far as fighting champions go I have Robinson fighting 18, Greb fighting 12 and Angott fighting 10.

To my knowledge, from what I researched before, Robinson fought twelve Hall of Famers, Angott ten, and Greb I think eight.

Henry Armstrong also had a great resume. Eleven Hall of Famers - Midget Wolgast, Benny Bass, Baby Arizmendi, Beau Jack, Ray Robinson, Lou Ambers, Barney Ross, Lew Jenkins, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Chalky Wright, and a whole host of good contenders.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 13 Feb 2006, 19:57

For a guy with just 68 fights, Jimmy McLarnin's opposition is very impressive.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 13 Feb 2006, 21:57

Sven Ottke
Chris Byrd
Floyd Patterson

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Not

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 13 Feb 2006, 22:18

expug wrote:Here is a list of Champions fought for both Robinson and Greb. Robinson: Denny Moyer, Joey Giardello, Ralph Dupas, Terry Downes, Gene Fullmer, Paul Pender, Carmen Basilio, BoBo Olson, Joey Maxim, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Jake Lamotta, Kid Gavilan, Tommy Bell, Sammy Angott, Henry Armstrong, Marty Servo, Fritzie Zivic. For Greb: Tiger Flowers, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker, Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, Jimmy Slattery, Johnny Wilson, Mike Mctigue, Al Mcoy, Jack Dillon, Mike Odowd, George Chip. I still gotta go with Sugar Ray, but Grebs record is also great. Apologies if I missed any.

Well, let's break it down even more clearly. Greatest opponents by wins, losses and draws:

ROBINSON:

Gavilan: 2-0
Zivic 2-0
LaMotta 5-1(though I've read that Jake shouldould have gotten the dec in one other)
Angott 3-0
Olson 4-0
Graziano 1-0
Fullmer 1-2-1
Basilio 1-1

GREB:

Tunney 2-3
Loughran 4-1(a controversial loss)
Rosenbloom 1-0(an easy victory over a HOFer)
Dillon2-0(easy victories over another HOF Light Heavy)
Levinsky 6-0 (see above statement)
McTigue 2-0
Slattery 1-0
Norfolk 1-1
T. Gibbons 2-2

All the above mentioned fighters were LH Champions except Norfolk and Gibbons, who couldn't get title shots.

Walker 1-0
Chip 2-2 (Greb was young and still learning)
Flowers 1-2 (Harry was at the end of his career)
McGoorty 1-0
M.Gibbons 1-1
McCoy 2-0
Wilson 2-0

All the above were Middleweight champs except Gibbons, who couldn't get a title shot.

Miske 2-0
Gunboat Smith 2-0
Bill Brennan 4-0

All the above were top HEAVYWEIGHTS.

In summation, Greb established complete dominance over just about every quality fighter of his day from middleweight to Light Heavyweight except Tunney, whom he always gave hell to. Let's not forget the tough challengers he faced either: Bob Moha, Fay Kaiser, Willie Meehan(Dempsey's nemesis), Roper....it goes on forever.

Conversely, a look at the record shows that Robinson never displayed dominance over Fullmer or Basilio. His quality of tough opposition, though impressive, is nowhere near Harry's.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 13 Feb 2006, 22:21

expug wrote:
Decagon wrote:Greb and Ali. Robinson doesn't even compare.
I dont know, Lamotta, Zivic , Basilio, Fullmer ,Maxim, Angott, Bell,Henry Armstrong, Damn tough opponents I dont know how you can say he doesnt compare.

He gets zero credit for beating a washed-up Armstrong. I don't give Ray credit for that win any more than I give Harry Greb credit for beating Jack Blackburn.

Ray lost to Maxim. Greb beat every light-heavyweight he fought, all of whom rank higher than Maxim on all-time LH lists.

Fullmer beat Ray more times than Ray beat Fullmer

Ray was 1-1 vs. Basilio.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 13 Feb 2006, 22:22

expug wrote:Ray fought alotta contenders also. Joey Archer, Rocky Castellani, Tiger Jones, Holly Mimms, Bobby Dykes, Charley Fusari, Robert Villeman, George Costner, Steve Belloise, Georgie Abrams, Artie Levine, Jose Basora.

Yeah, but Robinson LOST to some of them(Archer). Greb didn't.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 13 Feb 2006, 22:24

DoubleM wrote:Check out Sammy Angott's resume then...

Henry Armstrong (my #1 of all time)
Ray Robinson (#2)
Willie Pep (#4)

'Nuff said.

Oh, hang on. Add these lot:

Ike Williams
Beau Jack
Bob Montgomery
Lew Jenkins
Fritzie Zivic
Baby Arizmendi
Freddie Miller

All Hall of Famers.

Then there's the other guys... Champions/contenders such as Petey Sarron, Leo Rodak and Milt Aron. There are another dozen or so world contenders who Sammy faced.

Greatest resume of all time, by a long way

Lost to Zivic. Lost to Williams twice. Lost to Rodak. Miller was ANCIENT.

Sammy LOST to most of the best he fought. His resume is not comparable to Greb's. Harry BEAT the great fighters he fought.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 13 Feb 2006, 22:33

Gotta disagree with you on this one nero. The only thing I was saying is Ray fought the Toughest Opposition ,not how he did against it. Greb didnt fight as many champs or Hall of Famers as Ray.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 13 Feb 2006, 22:36

expug wrote:Gotta disagree with you on this one nero. The only thing I was saying is Ray fought the Toughest Opposition ,not how he did against it. Greb didnt fight as many champs or Hall of Famers as Ray.

Who on Ray's resume compares with Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker and Tommy Loughran?

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 13 Feb 2006, 22:41

Armstrong ,Lamotta,Basilio,Gavilan, Ill give ya Tunney as probably the best single opponent for both.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 13 Feb 2006, 22:44

expug wrote:Armstrong ,Lamotta,Basilio,Gavilan, Ill give ya Tunney as probably the best single opponent for both.

Armstrong was washed-up. Don't even think of giving Ray credit for that one(no one else at the time did)

LaMotta, Basilio and Gavilan over Walker and Loughran?? I don't think so. Never heard anybody put them in league with those two.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 13 Feb 2006, 22:46

Nero3000 wrote:
expug wrote:Armstrong ,Lamotta,Basilio,Gavilan, Ill give ya Tunney as probably the best single opponent for both.
Armstrong was washed-up. Don't even think of giving Ray credit for that one(no one else at the time did)

LaMotta, Basilio and Gavilan over Walker and Loughran?? I don't think so. Never heard anybody put them in league with those two.

I wouldn't even put Basilio in league with Tiger Flowers, Mike Gibbons, Tommy Gibbons, Jack Dillon or Maxie Rosenbloom

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 13 Feb 2006, 22:53

Armstrong fought 22 more times after Ray beat him,went17-3-2,k.oing Bummy Davis and former champ Mike Belloise.

surf-bat · Post by **surf-bat** » 13 Feb 2006, 22:57

expug wrote:Armstrong fought 22 more times after Ray beat him,went17-3-2,k.oing Bummy Davis and former champ Mike Belloise.

He was still considered well past his prime. Ike Williams, who was a close friend of mine, told me that everybody in the boxing community considered Henry past his prime. A prime Armstrong gives Robby hell. Maybe even beats him.

All Grebs toughest opponents were prime.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 13 Feb 2006, 23:11

armstrong wasnt even in his prime when he lost to zivic

however armstrong was still a good fighter when robinson beat him even though he was well past his prime. i give credit to the robinson victory

hank even said on his best day he would never beat sugar ray because he was too fast

Champ with toughest opponents on his record.

Champ with toughest opponents on his record.

Re: Champ with toughest opponents on his record.