haye the new lewis?!?! HA HA HA...

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 16 Feb 2006, 08:12

apparently some people have been making this comparison just lately.its absurd!!dont get me wrong,david haye is a good fighter,with good skills and a big punch,but how can a guy who gets battered by a 40 yr old carl thompson!who at best can be described as fringe top 10 cruiser in his prime,expect to last with a heavy with only mediocre power?i undersatnd he will be substantially faster than most heavies,but imagine klitschko,rahman or god forbid peter landing flush on hayes chin?!? thats a scary thought! :(

Post by **The Law** » 16 Feb 2006, 08:30

I agree, such a comparison is ludicrous. They are totally diffferent types of fighters.

I think Haye's power can definitely knock out a lot of heavies but his chin is questionable. He could be the second coming of Herbie Hide.........

However, Hide was fighting in heavies during a decent era, in contrast the current era sucks so who knows what haye can achieve.........

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 16 Feb 2006, 09:11

He lost to Thompson on experiance and not pacing himself.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 16 Feb 2006, 09:21

I think the comparisons are inaccurate, they don't fight the same, act the same etc. However I think Haye is a great boxer BUT I don't think he has the frame to be a HW. To me he looks good and big at cruiserweight. There are two reasons why he wants to move up to heavy. He says its because he struggles to make the weight. If that so he's being lazy and thats not a good sign. He looks fine at Cruiser. I think its because of the money and prestige at HW. To be honest I hope he does well because he's a nice bloke. But I think what you'll see is someone who will KO someone or get KOed and its whatever happens first. Its a bad HW scene at the moment so I can see him winning a title but he'll be a boxer who will win one lose one at HW. At Cruiser he could absolutely clean up and dominate for quite a while.

Post by **The Law** » 16 Feb 2006, 09:35

Max Molyneux wrote:He lost to Thompson on experiance and not pacing himself.

That is true, but the fact remains his chin is very questionable. He was badly floored by Lolenga Mock, and Mock used to be a super middleweight . He also got knocked out cold during his amateur career.

His punching power is unquestionable, but his chin and stamina are suspect.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 16 Feb 2006, 12:14

the lewis comparison is only because of the maloney connection. haye is legit top 10, most ppl rated Gurov in or near the top 10 mark. there's a poll by print/net boxing writers worldboxingmedia.com (an independent rankings system) & i think Gurov is still rated on it!

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 16 Feb 2006, 12:22

Haye will get laid out at heavyweight by the first puncher who connects no doubt about it.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 16 Feb 2006, 12:36

When I have met Haye he has looked to have a relatively slim build, not at all as physically intimidating as say Tyson, Sweet D Williams or even Audley - those blokes are real heavies, not manufactured, blown up.

Before someone puts forward Holyfield as Haye's potential blueprint for success, remember Holyfield has a legendarily stout chin, not to mention one of the best work ethics of any figher before or since - can the same be said of Haye?

I hope he makes it, I really do, but I just can't see him mixing all that well with the big boys...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 16 Feb 2006, 12:53

Yep, even compared to a relatively slim heavyweight by modern standards like Ali, Haye would not look as big. Haye has a very slender neck for a heavyweight, it's quite long too, wonder if that's why his punch resistance seems to be an issue?

Holyfield was quite compactly put together and had a 19 inch neck. He looked like he juiced when you see how much he stacked on his frame, but even so, took him a long time to get to a solidly built 215 lbs.

Haye is built more like Johnny Nelson, long and lean with broad shoulders and doesn't have that stockiness in the legs most heavyweights have.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 16 Feb 2006, 13:29

Can;t really go off appearance of how he looks though as he knows his own body.

Maybe he dehydrates himself to make Cruiser and puts on another 10 pounds or so on the fight.

Anyone sure the Mock KD wasn't just a fluke or that he was able to carry his punch up to Cruiser?

As for being put out cold it can happen to any fighter who did it btw?

Tyson is real heavie, not manufactured, blown up.

Tyson obviously pumped Iron to become a heavtweight

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 16 Feb 2006, 13:32

No he didn't Tyson was 190 lbs when he was 16, and could bench press about 250 lbs, and that was before even working out.

when he trained with Cus he would have been doing very little in the way of weight training as Cus was a traditionalist.

Tyson was a natural 215 lber, huge thighs, huge neck, big shoulders and chest and thick around the midriff.

Later in his career, mike started pumping the weights and went up ini weight to around 230, but he hit harder at 215.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 16 Feb 2006, 13:37

jamesmcdonnell wrote:No he didn't Tyson was 190 lbs when he was 16, and could bench press about 250 lbs, and that was before even working out.

when he trained with Cus he would have been doing very little in the way of weight training as Cus was a traditionalist.

Tyson was a natural 215 lber, huge thighs, huge neck, big shoulders and chest and thick around the midriff.

Later in his career, mike started pumping the weights and went up ini weight to around 230, but he hit harder at 215.

Tyson was obviously lifting weights when he was in his 15 stone days he would been a cruiserweight without them.

250lbs at 16? That is bullshit I could do about 60kg at the most at that age and I was 15 to 16 stone back then!

Yeah he got a huge neck, thighs, shoulders, chest and midriff obviously doing the weights.

He was even attempting to fight at Heavyweight in the Olympics not Super Heavy which he would of been if he was a natural 215.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Feb 2006, 13:38

Max Molyneux wrote:Can;t really go off appearance of how he looks though as he knows his own body.

Maybe he dehydrates himself to make Cruiser and puts on another 10 pounds or so on the fight.

Anyone sure the Mock KD wasn't just a fluke or that he was able to carry his punch up to Cruiser?

As for being put out cold it can happen to any fighter who did it btw?

Tyson is real heavie, not manufactured, blown up.
Tyson obviously pumped Iron to become a heavtweight

Jim Twite did it...

Amazing how skinny Tyson was in prison..... a natural heavyweight shouldnt get that skinny.
Check Eubanks biography... the photo of Tyson and him together... Eubank looks bigger than him

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Feb 2006, 13:41

Max Molyneux wrote: 250lbs at 16? That is bullshit I could do about 60kg at the most at that age and I was 15 to 16 stone back then!

you are not Mike Tyson, the guy was a physical freak......

Look how muscular he was at 14... a real man child

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 16 Feb 2006, 13:45

Picture please?

I know I'm not Mike Tyson tell me something I don't know but 250lbs for a 16 year old is bull.

Even that Kid who was a muscular freak only did 200lbs at most.

He may of had a broad build but he was not a solid 190 at 16 thats crap.

No way could he have been that muscular at 14 either.

Even onthe picture of him with Lewis he wasn't as built as he was at 20.

Tyson's the most lied about Heavy ever.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Feb 2006, 13:49

Max Molyneux wrote:Picture please?

I know I'm not Mike Tyson tell me something I don't know but 250lbs for a 16 year old is bull.

Even that Kid who was a muscular freak only did 200lbs at most.

He may of had a broad build but he was not a solid 190 at 16 thats crap.

No way could he have been that muscular at 14 either.

Even onthe picture of him with Lewis he wasn't as built as he was at 20.

dude 250lbs isnt a lot..... its 113kg
Remember there are 16 year olds who can run the 100m in 10.2 seconds
Javier Sotomayor high jumped 2m33 at 16

You are comparing yourself an average man to the youngest heavyweight champion ever....

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 16 Feb 2006, 13:55

Max Molyneux wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:No he didn't Tyson was 190 lbs when he was 16, and could bench press about 250 lbs, and that was before even working out.

when he trained with Cus he would have been doing very little in the way of weight training as Cus was a traditionalist.

Tyson was a natural 215 lber, huge thighs, huge neck, big shoulders and chest and thick around the midriff.

Later in his career, mike started pumping the weights and went up ini weight to around 230, but he hit harder at 215.
Tyson was obviously lifting weights when he was in his 15 stone days he would been a cruiserweight without them.

250lbs at 16? That is bullshit I could do about 60kg at the most at that age and I was 15 to 16 stone back then!

Yeah he got a huge neck, thighs, shoulders, chest and midriff obviously doing the weights.

He was even attempting to fight at Heavyweight in the Olympics not Super Heavy which he would of been if he was a natural 215.

Max Tyson was a genetic freak, plain and simple. He was 15 stone in his mid teens and there was very little fat on him. All that without really touching weights. He was a born fighting machine

Get the series he did with Harry Carpenter on the Heavyweights in the mid 80s. His insights and historical knowledge are one thing to behold, but on there he talks about Bruno's love of weight lifting and Tyson admits to never having really down any weight training "just calasthenics" (floor work) etc, as he puts it.

As James said Cus was a traditionalist, there is no way he would have had his fighters working the weights room, no way.

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 16 Feb 2006, 13:56

knockout wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Picture please?

I know I'm not Mike Tyson tell me something I don't know but 250lbs for a 16 year old is bull.

Even that Kid who was a muscular freak only did 200lbs at most.

He may of had a broad build but he was not a solid 190 at 16 thats crap.

No way could he have been that muscular at 14 either.

Even onthe picture of him with Lewis he wasn't as built as he was at 20.
dude 250lbs isnt a lot..... its 113kg
Remember there are 16 year olds who can run the 100m in 10.1 seconds

You are comparing yourself an average man to the youngest heavyweight champion ever....

Come on...113 Kg is a lot.

A lot of big and/or muscular people I've seen at gyms can't bench much more than that.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 16 Feb 2006, 14:01

Matchfixer wrote:
knockout wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Picture please?

I know I'm not Mike Tyson tell me something I don't know but 250lbs for a 16 year old is bull.

Even that Kid who was a muscular freak only did 200lbs at most.

He may of had a broad build but he was not a solid 190 at 16 thats crap.

No way could he have been that muscular at 14 either.

Even onthe picture of him with Lewis he wasn't as built as he was at 20.
dude 250lbs isnt a lot..... its 113kg
Remember there are 16 year olds who can run the 100m in 10.1 seconds

You are comparing yourself an average man to the youngest heavyweight champion ever....
Come on...113 Kg is a lot.

A lot of big and/or muscular people I've seen at gyms can't bench much more than that.

I cant remember the total Kostya Tszyu is said to be able to bench but I think its greater then that - possibly 120kg. For a 10stish man its remarkable. You must remember though Tyszu trains 4 hrs a day and is an elite athlete. He isnt some muscle mary in your local fitness first.

Same goes for Tyson - from the age of 13 he was groomed for one goal - to win the heavyweight title. All else was secondary. Can you say you trained singularly, daily, from 13 in a physically unrelenting way like Tyson? No? then why be surprised that he could out bench you in his youth?

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Feb 2006, 14:03

Matchfixer wrote:
knockout wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Picture please?

I know I'm not Mike Tyson tell me something I don't know but 250lbs for a 16 year old is bull.

Even that Kid who was a muscular freak only did 200lbs at most.

He may of had a broad build but he was not a solid 190 at 16 thats crap.

No way could he have been that muscular at 14 either.

Even onthe picture of him with Lewis he wasn't as built as he was at 20.
dude 250lbs isnt a lot..... its 113kg
Remember there are 16 year olds who can run the 100m in 10.1 seconds

You are comparing yourself an average man to the youngest heavyweight champion ever....
Come on...113 Kg is a lot.

A lot of big and/or muscular people I've seen at gyms can't bench much more than that.

you must go to poor gyms :-)
mosley can do 130kg, Kosta 120kg, Lennox +160kg, Tua +160kg.

You guys are comparing Joe Bloggs to the finest athletes in the world

You gotta understand some people are much better physically gifted than others....

Going back to my sprint analogy above.. if we didnt have TV and I told you i knew a 16 year old kid could do 10.2 seconds you would tell me to F**K off because you knew loads of good runners in your gym who looked the part but couldnt break 11 seconds

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Feb 2006, 14:05

TerribleTerry wrote:
I cant remember the total Kostya Tszyu is said to be able to bench but I think its greater then that - possibly 120kg. For a 10stish man its remarkable. You must remember though Tyszu trains 4 hrs a day and is an elite athlete. He isnt some muscle mary in your local fitness first.

Same goes for Tyson - from the age of 13 he was groomed for one goal - to win the heavyweight title. All else was secondary. Can you say you trained singularly, daily, from 13 in a physically unrelenting way like Tyson? No? then why be surprised that he could out bench you in his youth?

Thank you TT.. at last some common sense

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 16 Feb 2006, 14:09

Guys I hear what you are saying.

It's the age factor that makes it hard to believe. A teenager who without training can bench significantly more than his body weight sounds incredible. Guess I'd have to see pics to believe it.

I think it's also hard to compare running with weight lifting; far too different but I see your point.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Feb 2006, 14:17

Matchfixer wrote:Guys I hear what you are saying.

It's the age factor that makes it hard to believe. A teenager who without training can bench significantly more than his body weight sounds incredible. Guess I'd have to see pics to believe it.

I think it's also hard to compare running with weight lifting; far too different but I see your point.

you can develop a lot of strength by just doing push ups, dips and chins and of course hitting the heavy bag and wrestling with opponents whilst sparring.

here is an real life scenario for you... Erik Teymour (super middle) doesnt lift weights in training. He just does press ups chins and dips etc.... i was training one day and was doing sets with 100kg..... he came over after he had finished a 90 minute session on the bags etc and banged out 6 reps fairly easy......i was pretty shocked..... I reckon he could max about 130kg at 13stone bodyweight.... and he doesnt lift weights in training.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 16 Feb 2006, 14:27

I can remember going to the Gym with a guy called Raymond Ryan from my school when I was 16. I had been going to the gym for about 6 months, and could do about 45 KG I recall. Ray Ryan had never set foot in a gym in his life and went over to the machine put 80 on the stack and lifted it straight away. Ray was a big strong guy, but he was nowhere near Tyson's build.

Maybe they mean bench press as in machine as opposed to free weights? A lot bench press is technique.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 16 Feb 2006, 21:36

knockout wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Picture please?

I know I'm not Mike Tyson tell me something I don't know but 250lbs for a 16 year old is bull.

Even that Kid who was a muscular freak only did 200lbs at most.

He may of had a broad build but he was not a solid 190 at 16 thats crap.

No way could he have been that muscular at 14 either.

Even onthe picture of him with Lewis he wasn't as built as he was at 20.
dude 250lbs isnt a lot..... its 113kg
Remember there are 16 year olds who can run the 100m in 10.2 seconds
Javier Sotomayor high jumped 2m33 at 16

You are comparing yourself an average man to the youngest heavyweight champion ever....

Is a smeging lot, what you on about!

Most I do is 100kg at the moment since I did it light till I was 18 from 15.

Runnings different to weightlifting.

you must go to poor gyms
mosley can do 130kg, Kosta 120kg, Lennox +160kg, Tua +160kg.

You guys are comparing Joe Bloggs to the finest athletes in the world

You gotta understand some people are much better physically gifted than others....

Going back to my sprint analogy above.. if we didnt have TV and I told you i knew a 16 year old kid could do 10.2 seconds you would tell me to F**K off because you knew loads of good runners in your gym who looked the part but couldnt break 11 seconds

Poor gyms? Dude Tua and Lennox are Heavyweights so I can believe them but Kostya and Mosley wouldn't weigh under 12 stone if they were benching that much even in their walk around weights.

Hell Lacy walks around with at least 13 stone and look at his build to Mosley and Tyszu.

Boxers are fornicating liars when it comes to weights.

113 is a lot for anyone.

You ever lifted weights?

Plus there professionals but it is still a lot.

People can be physically more gifted? Bullshit depends on the persons attiude and how they do it.

A 16 year old would have to be steroids like that Sandrak kid and he never went past 90kg!

Going back to my sprint analogy above.. if we didnt have TV and I told you i knew a 16 year old kid could do 10.2 seconds you would tell me to F**K off because you knew loads of good runners in your gym who looked the part but couldnt break 11 seconds

Thats got nothing to do with anything here!

Terry Tyson was groomed for it but no way unless CUs was feeding him steroids would he have been able to do that even before ever touching a weight.

Plus Tszyu is only 10 stone only at weigh ins when he's dehydrated to make weight he'd have to be at least 12 stone normally.

Max Tyson was a genetic freak, plain and simple. He was 15 stone in his mid teens and there was very little fat on him. All that without really touching weights. He was a born fighting machine

Get the series he did with Harry Carpenter on the Heavyweights in the mid 80s. His insights and historical knowledge are one thing to behold, but on there he talks about Bruno's love of weight lifting and Tyson admits to never having really down any weight training "just calasthenics" (floor work) etc, as he puts it.

As James said Cus was a traditionalist, there is no way he would have had his fighters working the weights room, no way.

You can be built big but for his height he no doubt did weights to get that big and especially in his teens! I'm naturally built bigger than Tyson but I would of been 14 stone odd without the weights.

I hear Cus was for weight training elsewhere and I don't know what to believe because theres so many Tyson stories since he is the most lied about Heavy ever!

Tyson obviously did weights, he had a bodybuilders build. Doing floor work doesn't make you look like that!