haye the new lewis?!?! HA HA HA...

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 16 Feb 2006, 22:42

Tyson benching 250lbs at 16. I can believe that, he was a big bastard, mainly down to genetics. But I dont believe it was done without some sort of weight training.

I remember seeing Tyson in his comeback fight vs McNeeley, he was built like a brickhouse!! Must of did alot of weights in Prison.

That Sandrak kid was quite amazing. Anyone know what came of him?

Also shouldnt this thread be Haye the new Holyfield? Which is still absurd!

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 17 Feb 2006, 05:49

Max- How the hell can you compare a pre pubescent kid like Richard Sandrak to a 16 year old man child like Mike Tyson???
Tyson had pretty much reached his physical peak at 16 which is why i find these numbers very believeable.
However if Sandrak could bench press 210lbs when he was 8 years old then Tyson pressing 250 at 16 years old isnt too hard to believe even for you.

I do lift weights, can bench press about 130kg (290lbs) when i am on my A game...but my bodyweight is about 105 so its not overly impressive.

Guys like Tyson, natural bulls, dont come along to often, certainly not in the UK.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 17 Feb 2006, 05:51

lvlarc_uk wrote:
I remember seeing Tyson in his comeback fight vs McNeeley, he was built like a brickhouse!! Must of did alot of weights in Prison.

He was actually pretty skinny when he came out of prison but was extremely jacked when he fought McNeeley. i suspect some foul play there.

Is physique pre prison and post prison was completely different which makes me a little suspect as to what he was doing with his diet etc

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2006, 06:34

Was reading Mike Tyson Money ?Myth and Betrayal last night, and Tyson was over 200 lbs when he was 15, he was a little overweight back then probably. He probably lost a fair bit in training

Tyson also DID NOT look like a bodybuilder in his early career, he had an elongated and supple musculature, unlike the thick knotted muscles he had late on.

People who trained Tyson late in his career, said he jacked loads of weight in the gym, but did little roadwork or circuit training, hence the decline in his stamina.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 17 Feb 2006, 08:29

knockout wrote:Max- How the hell can you compare a pre pubescent kid like Richard Sandrak to a 16 year old man child like Mike Tyson???
Tyson had pretty much reached his physical peak at 16 which is why i find these numbers very believeable.
However if Sandrak could bench press 210lbs when he was 8 years old then Tyson pressing 250 at 16 years old isnt too hard to believe even for you.

I do lift weights, can bench press about 130kg (290lbs) when i am on my A game...but my bodyweight is about 105 so its not overly impressive.

Guys like Tyson, natural bulls, dont come along to often, certainly not in the UK.

Yeah I pretty much can compare because Sandrak was given a special drink and once he stopped having that drink he was going softer and was training all his life.

Tyson was a street thug and was in and out of places till Cus so how he could that all before 16 is pretty much bullcrap.

105 pounds! No way would you be 105 pounds if you can bench 130kg, now your lying!

Tyson did look like a minibodybuilder James, your muscles don't go big like that without weights so they were lying that he just did floor work. He had a broad build for his size but your muscles don't go big like that without weights. If he did floorwork alone he'd be more lean.

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 17 Feb 2006, 08:46

tyson had extremely fast hands.........bodybuilders who push heavy weights would never EVER be able to move so quick,hence the lack of them in the sport.tyson may of pushed a few weights,but i doubt he trained seriously with heavy,slow reps to bulk up when he was young.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 17 Feb 2006, 09:02

Have you ever shaken hands with Tyson. His hands are like a bunch of Bananas.

He also has size 14 feet.

He has a massive bone structure. A lot of body builders have loads of bulk but small bone structures. A 200lb body builder may looked more ripped than Tyson, but may have a bone structure of a 155lb man.

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 17 Feb 2006, 09:39

anyways,bodybuilders are just guys who aint got the stomach for real sport

back to the haye/heavyweight saga,am i right in saying that holyfield was just 14stone 7 pound when he beat buster douglas?

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 17 Feb 2006, 10:37

KO Atrist wrote:Have you ever shaken hands with Tyson. His hands are like a bunch of Bananas.

He also has size 14 feet.

He has a massive bone structure. A lot of body builders have loads of bulk but small bone structures. A 200lb body builder may looked more ripped than Tyson, but may have a bone structure of a 155lb man.

Young Tyson was all about explosiveness and fast twitch fibers.. just what you need for good bench press single reps.
Thats why sprinters are always good at cleans and squats etc...fast twich fibers

Like KOA says Tyson is a naturally big man, big hands, big joints etc...
Most top bodybuilders have relatively small bone structure which gives the impression of bigger muscles as the difference between the joints and the muscle is larger... (which is the reason they are succesful)

See a guy like Flex wheeler for example...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2006, 10:59

Max Molyneux wrote:
knockout wrote:Max- How the hell can you compare a pre pubescent kid like Richard Sandrak to a 16 year old man child like Mike Tyson???
Tyson had pretty much reached his physical peak at 16 which is why i find these numbers very believeable.
However if Sandrak could bench press 210lbs when he was 8 years old then Tyson pressing 250 at 16 years old isnt too hard to believe even for you.

I do lift weights, can bench press about 130kg (290lbs) when i am on my A game...but my bodyweight is about 105 so its not overly impressive.

Guys like Tyson, natural bulls, dont come along to often, certainly not in the UK.
Yeah I pretty much can compare because Sandrak was given a special drink and once he stopped having that drink he was going softer and was training all his life.

Tyson was a street thug and was in and out of places till Cus so how he could that all before 16 is pretty much bullcrap.

105 pounds! No way would you be 105 pounds if you can bench 130kg, now your lying!

Tyson did look like a minibodybuilder James, your muscles don't go big like that without weights so they were lying that he just did floor work. He had a broad build for his size but your muscles don't go big like that without weights. If he did floorwork alone he'd be more lean.

Tyson first did boxing at reform school, which he started at the age of 13,

You seem to be in denial about something. I've seen loads of young guys where weren't even stand out athletes

Some people are just born with way above average genetics, if you think that bodybuilding is all just down to hard work, then you're dreaming.

No matter how hard I trained, I would never have a massive broad back and huge lats, because I am simply not built that way. I could add muscle to my frame, but you cannot change the underlying bone structure very much. Your bone structure will adapt a little to exercise, for instance your shoulders will broaden slightly if you are under the age of 25, but not my much. Your bones will also become thicker to cope with the extra muscle mass, but again, not dramatically.

The shape you are born with is largely set, and there's only so much bulk you can carry and still be biomechanically correct.

For Tyson to be as quick and supple as he was as a young heavyweight, there's no way he was doing weights.

There's a famous training video of Tyson and Cus, Tyson is about 17 I think, and he's doing this bobbing and weaving exercise whilst throwing punches whilst doing a circle in the ring, and the guy is as flexible as a fornicating eel. No extra bulk on him at all.

Tyson's physique is nothing like a bodybuilders in his prime, you're just wrong.

Tyson would probably have made an exceptional body builder or weightlifter, he has the pefect genotype for it.

That's the thing you notice when you stand next to a proper heavyweight, is just how massive their frame is. Danny Williams would fill a whole doorway up, and not because of the extra weight, his shoulders are absolutely huge, and his calves are thicker than most people's thighs, he is a beast of a man.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 17 Feb 2006, 11:28

As a registered strength and conditioning coach I have read this post with some interest. I can't believe the misconceptions about weight training. You can lift weights, get stronger and more powerful without getting bigger. Its all to do with hormone release and how many sets/reps you do. Size has nothing to do with how strong powerful someone is its all to do with muscle fibres and genetics. Just like size is no indication of punch power. Relatively speaking the smaller guys hit harder then bigger guys. Thats why we do pound for pound lists. For example who hits harder Lennox Lewis or Valuev? Or why is it that two guys in the same weight class have different KO %? Some people hit harder and some lift more in the gym. Look at Jonathan Edwards the triple jumper. He could lift huge weights in the gym but look how slim he was. Or look at the weightlifters who lift twice their own bodyweight. The bigger weightlifters lift more but not twice their bodyweight. In most sports you need to big strong and powerful but not necessarily bigger. Remember you have to carry that weight around and that can cause problems. Boxing is a prime example where you need to start within a certain weight limit. I currently train a boxer who has increased how much he can lift by about 20%. He has got much stronger and more powerful but has only increased his weight by about 1kg. If lifting weight was relative to body size he would have put on between 20-30kg!

As for Tyson lifting 113kg at 16. Seeing he was 95kg thats very believable, actually its not that much. When you bench a good marker is that you can lift your own bodyweight. I'm 76kg and I can bench 102kg but I'm not an elite athlete and I have a very slim build. If you look at the website below you can see what people of different ages lift. The record for someone u18, weighing 90kg is 167kg! So I don't understand why people are making such a big deal about what Tyson could lift. Honestly its not some unbelievable amount, its good but not exceptional.

http://www.britishpowerlifting.org.uk/

I knew an ex European powerlifting champion. He was 95kg and his record was 225Kg. I think people need to do a bit more research before they make sweeping statements about what people can or can't do. Weight training is a complicated thing and not just about pushing weights. tTre is a science behind it.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 17 Feb 2006, 11:38

Arsenal... exactly the point i was trying to make, but put much more eloquently.

Edwards could clean 140kg apparently and like you say he is a skinny dude...

I didnt wanna say it at the time as i knew it would get shot down, but the quote i heard about Tysons bench press was that he did 250lbs for 10 reps.. which again I find pretty reasonable for someone with Tysons genetics and professional training at that age.

attached a link to a video of Tyson aged 16....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av3vupYW ... %20amateur

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 17 Feb 2006, 12:11

Well I can do 10 at 75kg. Seeing Tyson is 20kg heavier than me doing 10 at 113kg is fine. As regards Edwards its only if you do clean or snatch you see how unbelievable 140KG is! The technique is extremely hard to get. I can only do 60kg! Another thing about edwards was he done jumping squats over about 10m lifting something like 100kg! Thats amazing. What some people don't realise is if you watch elite athletes train thats do some incedible things which to us mere mortals seems impossible. Ko I have a mpeg that you'll love. I'll try and find it. An Olympic Bobsleigher cleans 140Kg, drops the weight, it bounces up, he catches it and bicep curls it! Its hilarious and scary at the same time!

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2006, 12:30

Well, perhaps this can put it to bed, and Max can just accept the fact that Tyson was able to outbench him at 16. Johnathan Edwards' figures are pretty incredible.

Anyone here remember precious McKenzie, now there was a strong guy, not massively muscular, and only 4'11 I think, and he could lift HUGE amounts.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2006, 12:32

In fact Max, 60 year old midget precious McKenzie can STILL outlift you at bench press....

read it and weep...

http://www.preciousmckenzie.co.nz/current%20work.htm

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 17 Feb 2006, 12:35

EXACTLY!

I'll dig out some other facts and figures and you can see how incredible some of the things people do in training are. Anyone seen Michael Johnson's training program? Now that is something to be scared of!

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 17 Feb 2006, 12:37

Arsenal wrote:Well I can do 10 at 75kg. Seeing Tyson is 20kg heavier than me doing 10 at 113kg is fine. As regards Edwards its only if you do clean or snatch you see how unbelievable 140KG is! The technique is extremely hard to get. I can only do 60kg! Another thing about edwards was he done jumping squats over about 10m lifting something like 100kg! Thats amazing. What some people don't realise is if you watch elite athletes train thats do some incedible things which to us mere mortals seems impossible. Ko I have a mpeg that you'll love. I'll try and find it. An Olympic Bobsleigher cleans 140Kg, drops the weight, it bounces up, he catches it and bicep curls it! Its hilarious and scary at the same time!

Arsenal, thats MPEG sounds crazy.....
I love seeing elite athletes training....some of the things they do are incredible...
i am ok at the clean but i cannot get the snatch technique right at all, its is amazing feat of athletisism.
there is a good site that has some nice footage of elite shot putters training.. randy barnes and ulf timmermann..Timmermann doing bench press with pad on his chest to really work the speed and explosion he needed to become olympic champ.

http://macthrowvideo.com/annual_1980s.htm check timmermann bounce press

http://macthrowvideo.com/annual_1990s.htm check randy barnes bench

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 17 Feb 2006, 12:42

Arsenal wrote:EXACTLY!

I'll dig out some other facts and figures and you can see how incredible some of the things people do in training are. Anyone seen Michael Johnson's training program? Now that is something to be scared of!

No way michael johnson can run 19.32 i know loads of good sprinters who can only run 22 seconds

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2006, 12:44

Arsenal wrote:EXACTLY!

I'll dig out some other facts and figures and you can see how incredible some of the things people do in training are. Anyone seen Michael Johnson's training program? Now that is something to be scared of!

No but I'd love to see that. Aside from Ed Moses, I cannot think of another track athlete in history who was as dominant as Johnson, when you consider that he ran 200 and 400 and was equally dominant in both it's even more incredibly.

His leg turnover speed was freakish, and he had a choppy running style reminiscent of Jesse Owens.

I once read somewhere that with modern running spikes on a rubberised track, they reckon Jesse Owens would have been under 9.9 seconds.

Those old cinder tracks really were shit.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 17 Feb 2006, 12:44

KO I tell you mate if you do it then you realise how powerful and fast olympic weighlifters are contrary to what people think. They are not slow! I find the snatch extremely difficult as well. KO Something to take comfort from. I've seen World class sports people who have been competing for years and they still can't get the technique of clean and snatch right. Thats why its a sport in its own right. Its as much about technique as it is about power and strength.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 17 Feb 2006, 12:46

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Arsenal wrote:EXACTLY!

I'll dig out some other facts and figures and you can see how incredible some of the things people do in training are. Anyone seen Michael Johnson's training program? Now that is something to be scared of!
No but I'd love to see that. Aside from Ed Moses, I cannot think of another track athlete in history who was as dominant as Johnson, when you consider that he ran 200 and 400 and was equally dominant in both it's even more incredibly.

His leg turnover speed was freakish, and he had a choppy running style reminiscent of Jesse Owens.

I once read somewhere that with modern running spikes on a rubberised track, they reckon Jesse Owens would have been under 9.9 seconds.

Those old cinder tracks really were shit.

scary to think how fast Owen and Hayes would have been in the modern era....

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2006, 12:50

especially when you consider the lack of nutritional advice and scientific training methods, and the fact that they were amateurs in the true sense of the word who had to make a living whilst trying to be elite athletes.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 17 Feb 2006, 13:16

I'll dig out some of Johnson training files. Off the top of my head he used to do something like 30x200m with 30 sec rest keeping each one under something like 22secs. I'm not sure of the details but they are scary!

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Feb 2006, 14:39

Holy fornicate, that sounds impressive, mind you I don't have much to compare it to, interesting to compare it to other runners programmes.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 17 Feb 2006, 15:15

You guys will like this vid. Greek Olympic lifter Pyrros Dimas in 1993 manhandling incredible weights in training at only 180lbs...

http://media.putfile.com/Ironmind_1993_Dimas