Edwin Valero vs Henry Armstrong

[Kalan]

Kinda sorta what I thought you'd say

That's just another BS line from you.. Lets see how good you are. Analyze some upcoming fights in depth.

[BoxBuzz]

Hey Kalan.....you are on my brother!


TRIAL BY ASSESSMENT!!!!

You're on.

Let's take an oldie but a goodie. Please give us your round by round commentary on Ali vs Liston 1......... I'll follow suit immediately after you engage in the challenge that you yourself have chosen.

You can start the thread if you wish. Perhaps others could chime in as well. I suspect you are going to be pretty good, so I'm not even looking at this as much as a competition as it is a chance to take a look at a controversial fight and give some very pointed, and hopefully thought out feedback on just what was going on in that ring on that fateful night.

Just start a thread with a title that's recognizable and I'll follow your lead!

[Kalan]

Liston has a severely torn left biceps which hampered him in the 4th, 5th and especially the 6th -- after which he quit because the injury was hopeless... Despite being so handicapped the judges had it an even fight after 6... Ali should have been DQ'd in the rematch when he refused to go to a neutral corner for the ENTIRE COUNT!!! ... But that's not what I'm talking about... Analyze an UPCOMING fights. Anybody can blather on about a fight that's already happened or a fantasy fight that will NEVER happen.. How is Joshua-Breazeale going to go???

[BoxBuzz]

Liston has a severely torn left biceps which hampered him in the 4th, 5th and especially the 6th -- after which he quit because the injury was hopeless... Despite being so handicapped the judges had it an even fight after 6... Ali should have been DQ'd in the rematch when he refused to go to a neutral corner for the ENTIRE COUNT!!! ... But that's not what I'm talking about... Analyze an UPCOMING fights. Anybody can blather on about a fight that's already happened or a fantasy fight that will NEVER happen.. How is Joshua-Breazeale going to go???

First it was "crickets chirping" for some time.

Then after some time for reflection it sounds like a "no" from you. And this was YOUR challenge.....and yet you shirk.....

Although I could warm up to the fact that you seem to have no rules.....just whatever you happen to believe is true can be stated as if it's fact. No empirical expectations other than the imagination.

But hold the phone....... anybody can do that. Come to think of it, they usually do. As, so it appears, do you.

So I must bid you adieu,

Good day to you sir!


By the way, would you describe in similar terms Vitali's injury when engaged with Chris Byrd? In that case it actually happened that way. And Vitali quit when it was hopeless as well. However that information was clearly true, though you could argue "good on Chris" for tying the big guy up in knots, so that he strained himself into hopelessness while in pursuit.

Is this something a smaller man can impose on giants?

It's damn near imponderable....aint it?


And now as I said earlier.....Good day to you sir!

[Kalan]

"good on Chris" for tying the big guy up in knots, so that he strained himself into hopelessness while in pursuit. Is this something a smaller man can impose on giants?"

Byrd didn't impose anything on VK did he??? He was way behind on points, but got a gift win because VK was injured and couldn't continue. Ali also got a gift win because Liston was injured in their 1st fight ... and the fight was even on the cards at the end of 6 in case you missed that... Ali got another gift win when Liston didn't receive ANY count from the referee in the Ali-Liston rematch -- because Ali refused to go to a neutral corner and Joe Walcott spent the ENTIRE count desperately trying to push Ali to a neutral corner. Liston was ON HIS FEET at that point and the fight continued only to be erroneously stopped by a shouting Nat Fleischer, who was NOT an official... Ali MISSED ALL of his follow up punches following the knockdown showing Liston was unhurt... Liston easily ducked Ali's punches showing he suffered no effects from the knockdown punch... When Dempsey refused to go to a corner in the Dempsey-Tunney rematch the count was properly suspended for 4 seconds... Liston was screwed because nobody in Lewiston knew the rule.

As for Lewis-Klitschko... Vitali was winning the fight on all scorecards at the finish and the fight should have gone to the scorecards.. Shortly after the 3rd round started, Lewis (who was almost knocked out in the first 2 rounds which he lost) sliced a cut open on Vitali's left eyelid with an illegal thumb strike... Then he pulled Vitali into a clinch with his left arm around the back of Vitali's neck and rubbed his head and hair into the wound to expand it... Then as Vitali was still in a headlock Lewis raked the palm of his right glove over Vitali' left eye and cheek ripping open the cut on Vitali's eye and slashing 2 more cuts open on his face... So Vitali, who never suffered a threating cut in any other fight, now had blood streaming into his eye... So there were 3 foul blows by Lewis: 1 the thumb strike... 2 holding and hitting... 3 the palm rake... Therefore the fight should have gone to the scorecards as the British announcers explained in their telecast. Vitali should have won a Unanimous Technical Decision.

But that's just explaining what happened in those 4 fights to counter weird interpretations in the media that Liston faked the knockdown and took a dive in both fights... that Byrd somehow had the best of Vitali... or that Lewis opened those cut (he never won another fight on cuts and Vitali never lost another fight on cuts) with legal blows.

But you're refusing to give your analysis on Joshua-Breazeale... which is a little harder to predict than past fights or fantasy fights.

[gilgamesh]

"good on Chris" for tying the big guy up in knots, so that he strained himself into hopelessness while in pursuit. Is this something a smaller man can impose on giants?"

Byrd didn't impose anything on VK did he??? He was way behind on points, but got a gift win because VK was injured and couldn't continue. Ali also got a gift win because Liston was injured in their 1st fight ... and the fight was even on the cards at the end of 6 in case you missed that... Ali got another gift win when Liston didn't receive ANY count from the referee in the Ali-Liston rematch -- because Ali refused to go to a neutral corner and Joe Walcott spent the ENTIRE count desperately trying to push Ali to a neutral corner. Liston was ON HIS FEET at that point and the fight continued only to be erroneously stopped by a shouting Nat Fleischer, who was NOT an official... Ali MISSED ALL of his follow up punches following the knockdown showing Liston was unhurt... Liston easily ducked Ali's punches showing he suffered no effects from the knockdown punch... When Dempsey refused to go to a corner in the Dempsey-Tunney rematch the count was properly suspended for 4 seconds... Liston was screwed because nobody in Lewiston knew the rule.

As for Lewis-Klitschko... Vitali was winning the fight on all scorecards at the finish and the fight should have gone to the scorecards.. Shortly after the 3rd round started, Lewis (who was almost knocked out in the first 2 rounds which he lost) sliced a cut open on Vitali's left eyelid with an illegal thumb strike... Then he pulled Vitali into a clinch with his left arm around the back of Vitali's neck and rubbed his head and hair into the wound to expand it... Then as Vitali was still in a headlock Lewis raked the palm of his right glove over Vitali' left eye and cheek ripping open the cut on Vitali's eye and slashing 2 more cuts open on his face... So Vitali, who never suffered a threating cut in any other fight, now had blood streaming into his eye... So there were 3 foul blows by Lewis: 1 the thumb strike... 2 holding and hitting... 3 the palm rake... Therefore the fight should have gone to the scorecards as the British announcers explained in their telecast. Vitali should have won a Unanimous Technical Decision.

But that's just explaining what happened in those 4 fights to counter weird interpretations in the media that Liston faked the knockdown and took a dive in both fights... that Byrd somehow had the best of Vitali... or that Lewis opened those cut (he never won another fight on cuts and Vitali never lost another fight on cuts) with legal blows.

But you're refusing to give your analysis on Joshua-Breazeale... which is a little harder to predict than past fights or fantasy fights.

Joshua knocks out Breazeale easy because Breazeale sucks and is easy to hit. Not a hard fight to predict at all. I'll be surprised if Breazeale makes it to the 5th

[Kalan]

That's a pretty strong analysis...better than your Charlo-Trout take... I want to see if BoxBuzz is going to lend his massive insights to a future fight.

[gilgamesh]

That's a pretty strong analysis...better than your Charlo-Trout take... I want to see if BoxBuzz is going to lend his massive insights to a future fight.

I had the Charlo-Trout fight a draw myself so I wasn't too far off on that prediction, but yeah Charlo edged it in a close one. Breazeale is sh*t though. He's looked awful every time I've seen him fight. Anthony Joshua does everything better than Breazeale. Joshua wins easy or he's not all he's cracked up to be.

[Kalan]

That's a pretty strong analysis...better than your Charlo-Trout take... I want to see if BoxBuzz is going to lend his massive insights to a future fight.

I had the Charlo-Trout fight a draw myself so I wasn't too far off on that prediction, but yeah Charlo edged it in a close one. Breazeale is sh*t though. He's looked awful every time I've seen him fight. Anthony Joshua does everything better than Breazeale. Joshua wins easy or he's not all he's cracked up to be.

Joshua is the dominant Heavyweight for the next 10 years... He's all he's cracked up to be and more.

[BoxBuzz]

That's a pretty strong analysis...better than your Charlo-Trout take... I want to see if BoxBuzz is going to lend his massive insights to a future fight.

I would, but you make up rules as you go and your always extrapolating in pretzelated tangent logic, meaning I would be imposed upon by the constant changing of your attitudinal and emotional dramas.

As soon as you find yourself in a corner you change the rules. And you edit facts to fit whatever mood you have transitioned to.

So you would easily beat me into submission by your constant regulatory and protocol morphing.



Anyway, speaking of fiction....in what VERY EARLY round did Sonny hurt himself and how? And does this injury explain how Ali got away in that blinded round? Cuz that does need an explanation.
And what the heck was up with that liniment thing anyway? Now there's something that surely bends a rule or two. I don't think they allow you to put liniment in your opponents eye, just because he makes you nervous.
And while we're on the subject of injuries while pugilating, are you as easily accepting of the possibility that Norton broke Ali's jaw early on in their fight?
And if you are more accepting of one scenario than the other, can you explain why?

Now if your stumped.....it's ok, because you can just go with some sort of wonderful fiction to make sense of it all.



And excuse me, but Chris Byrd beat the Giant I just went back and checked the record, just in case I had forgotten......... maybe making the big lanky guy pull his own arm out of socket was part of the plan? We need to ask him! You mentioned how Chris was doing on the scorecards with Ibeabuchi when Ike caught up with him? I believe Vitali was actually doing better than Ike round for round wasn't he? That's a genuine question cause I can't quite remember other than I was admiring how well Chris was slipping those big bombs, up until he got caught in Ike's flyswatter.


Any ways cheers!

[gilgamesh]

That's a pretty strong analysis...better than your Charlo-Trout take... I want to see if BoxBuzz is going to lend his massive insights to a future fight.

I would, but you make up rules as you go and your always extrapolating in pretzelated tangent logic, meaning I would be imposed upon by the constant changing of your attitudinal and emotional dramas.

As soon as you find yourself in a corner you change the rules. And you edit facts to fit whatever mood you have transitioned to.

So you would easily beat me into submission by your constant regulatory and protocol morphing.



Anyway, speaking of fiction....in what VERY EARLY round did Sonny hurt himself and how? And does this injury explain how Ali got away in that blinded round? Cuz that does need an explanation.
And what the heck was up with that liniment thing anyway? Now there's something that surely bends a rule or two. I don't think they allow you to put liniment in your opponents eye, just because he makes you nervous.
And while we're on the subject of injuries while pugilating, are you as easily accepting of the possibility that Norton broke Ali's jaw early on in their fight?
And if you are more accepting of one scenario than the other, can you explain why?

Now if your stumped.....it's ok, because you can just go with some sort of wonderful fiction to make sense of it all.



And excuse me, but Chris Byrd beat the Giant I just went back and checked the record, just in case I had forgotten......... maybe making the big lanky guy pull his own arm out of socket was part of the plan? We need to ask him! You mentioned how Chris was doing on the scorecards with Ibeabuchi when Ike caught up with him? I believe Vitali was actually doing better than Ike round for round wasn't he? That's a genuine question cause I can't quite remember other than I was admiring how well Chris was slipping those big bombs, up until he got caught in Ike's flyswatter.


Any ways cheers!

I think Liston was hurt a little the second he realized he wasn't as tall as Ali.

[BoxBuzz]

yep.....that had to be sorely painful.

[PredatorHayds]

Lennox opened that cut by a punch. Not a thumb strike. He did rub his head in afterwards but that's what you do when someone's cut.
Your analysis of fights and recollection of the past is truly appalling.

[cfang]

Lennox opened that cut by a punch. Not a thumb strike. He did rub his head in afterwards but that's what you do when someone's cut.
Your analysis of fights and recollection of the past is truly appalling.

I agree, I always thought it was a punch at the time, big right hand and watched it again last night. There's no thumb, it's a straight right. Also Kal's analysis of that fight is way off in that yeah Vald was ahead but it certainly wasn't a walk over, it was a war and Lewis landed some huge shots. Ka'ls views on the two Ali liston fights (one he had a bad shoulder and two had a dodgy count) are totally biased.

[Kalan]

Lennox opened that cut by a punch. Not a thumb strike. He did rub his head in afterwards but that's what you do when someone's cut. Your analysis of fights and recollection of the past is truly appalling.

I agree, I always thought it was a punch at the time, big right hand and watched it again last night. There's no thumb, it's a straight right. Also Kal's analysis of that fight is way off in that yeah Vald was ahead but it certainly wasn't a walk over, it was a war and Lewis landed some huge shots. Ka'ls views on the two Ali liston fights (one he had a bad shoulder and two had a dodgy count) are totally biased.

You guys don't catch much when you're reviewing. You need to watch carefully in slow motion because NOBODY can miss this. Shortly after the 3rd round starts Lewis throws a series of left jabs followed by the right thumb strike. Slow it down, but the legal punching area of Lewis's right glove sails past Vitali's head and the thumb makes contact with a twist of Lewis's wrist, and opens a small nick...in a classic thumb strike.. The illegal head work also counts as a foul and also contributed to the cut as you ADMITTED!!! ... The holding and hitting (also a foul) along with Lewis's palm slash (another foul) over Vitali's face ripped 3 cuts open.. 2 cuts on VK's left eyelid and 1 on his cheek.. It doesn't make any difference if Vitali was only ahead 4-2 in rounds on all cards.. If the fight goes to the scorecards, which the rules call for when fouls cause or contribute to a cut and 4 or MORE rounds are completed... Vitali still wins a Unanimous Technical Decision... It doesn't matter how far ahead he was, he should have been awarded the fight.

Again... Lewis never won another fight on cuts in his life, he's not a cutting puncher... and Vitali never lost another fight on cuts. He wasn't a bleeder

[Kalan]

I think Liston was hurt a little the second he realized he wasn't as tall as Ali.

Very funny... Sonny was hurt more (emotionally - in the rematch) when he was ruled out without getting a count from the referee... And AFTER Ali was given an opportunity to follow up and Liston easily ducked all of Ali's follow up punches to show he was fine... Nat Fleischer told Walcott to stop the fight (in progress) and the idiot DID... if I'm the referee and an arrogant fighter refuses to go to a neutral corner for the ENTIRE COUNT???? ... I DQ him... He's outta there.. BTW, after the FIRST fight the Boxing Commission brought in 7 doctors to examine Liston's torn biceps.. They ALL said Liston's torn muscle was severe and a legitimate reason for retiring after 6 rounds.. Liston said they were looking for 1 doctor to say he was faking the injury so they could take his license.

But in the rematch they took Sonny Liston's license to box away in all 50 states and made him the fall guy... Liston asked "Why?" They told him "We think you faked the knockdown" and they wouldn't back down ... That was just as dumb as taking Ali's license away for 3 years in all 50 states... Boxing is so damned fkd I can't believe it.

[Kalan]

They seem to have taken down the LL-VK YouTube videos that show the 3rd round thumb strike in in slow motion, but you can see the head rub, and holding and hitting palm rake immediately afterwards.. Any blow other then with the end of the fist is illegal.. You can't strike with the edge or palm of the glove to slash an eyelid open while you holding your opponent around the neck.. So fouls did contribute to the cuts and the scorecards come into play in that case.

[BoxBuzz]

You said we should compare "analysis" info of a match....I agreed and you kinda sorta walked away from your own words.
That bothers me.
You have opinions. You say you are a boxing expert. I like reading your contributions.

Here is your own analysis of Liston vs Clay. Apparently you believe this fight is about nothing more than Liston hurting his shoulder.

Liston has a severely torn left biceps which hampered him in the 4th, 5th and especially the 6th -- after which he quit because the injury was hopeless... Despite being so handicapped the judges had it an even fight after 6... Ali should have been DQ'd in the rematch when he refused to go to a neutral corner for the ENTIRE COUNT!!! ... But that's not what I'm talking about... Analyze an UPCOMING fights. Anybody can blather on about a fight that's already happened or a fantasy fight that will NEVER happen.. How is Joshua-Breazeale going to go???

So that's your analysis here's mine......(and by the way, I'm not a boxing expert, I am a head injury specialist, and I have a good education in forensics, and reading body language, so that's how I review fights.

Here's my take.

I watched this thing on a very big screen one time and wrote this while watching it.

Round 1. First of all the body language and the facial expressions tell me a story. Ali looks hopeful and energetic but may not be as confident as he has been talking. Sonny is not kidding around, and he's got the body language and looks of a man who means business and intends and believes he is about to deliver a beating. And in these first three minutes he is forced off balance, he's lunging and knows he's looking bad, and he almost shows embarrassment. I counted 3 shots that he fully put his hopes on to end the fight and they landed on thin air and nothing more. They took the wind out of his sails. You can see in his eyes on the third shot that he is frustrated. The skirmish after the bell is interesting and shows genuine ill intent on both men's and corners part.

Round 1 Clay

Round 2. Okay I'll give this round to Liston, he hits some pay dirt twice with his big jab...not quite a hook but I'd call it a power shot anyway and it got Clay's attention. I see Clay studying and measuring. I see Clay taking charge as the boss in this round, but on pure points I will give this to Sonny...he is the champion. Liston did land the more meaningful punches but if you read these men and not purely the blow exchanges, Clay is clearly beginning to get the upper hand mentally between these two. He is gaining confidence and Liston is deflating.

Round 2. Liston

Round 3 Clay is slipping masterfully or else Liston just can't be read wrong...you pick it. First two minutes are Clay's and he completely gets Liston's attention/respect. I'll give the last minute to Liston but not enough to carry the round. Liston has a cut and a mouse on the left side of his face ALREADY and he appears to be confused, he has few answers but he's far from giving up, his body language is clearly telling me he is intensely searching for openings and hoping they might come. He is NOT his typical confident self and his posture is revealing doubt. He has now gone farther than his last two fights combined, and it's a whole different world for him. He may have rang Clay's bell a bit in the last minute. But Clay rang Liston's in the earlier going. Clay knows this guy can hit now. But it does not win Liston the round IMHO.

Round 3 Clay

Round 4. Now Liston's OTHER eye is puffy and he looks like he's aged in the last round. I called this round even there is back and forth action in this round and Liston has a few good moments as does Clay. One gets the sense that Clay is in charge but that alone does not carry the round in my opinion.

Round 4 Even....

Round 5. In between rounds Clay complains about his eyes, it looks like the sponge may have made things worse as the corner tries to wash his eyes out. It seems to take Liston by surprise that something has changed. Liston looks like he knows he must end this now, and somehow Clay manages to punt this round.. It's not a 10 8 round but it comes close because all Clay is doing is attempting to survive. The first 2 minutes are completely lopsided but Clay never loses composure and senses how to keep in the game. He gets tagged but keeps angles nicely and manages to avoid a deadly moment. Keeping distance, and coming in close and clinching when needed. Clays reaction time is stupefying in retreat. Liston doesn't seem to quite trust that Clay is helpless and that may have sewn his fate. Nevertheless there is no forensic body language that tells me that this is anything but fight and flight. There is NO indication that either man is NOT giving everything they have to end it on one hand, and to survive on the other. If this fight has any "fix" in it...it's the liniment moment and it did not pan out. Still Liston appears to have hit Clay with a shot or two that would have taken out lesser men.

Round 5 Liston

Round 6. You can see in Liston's facial expressions that he feels he blew his chance. And shockingly he is LOSING the battle of the Jabs. How about that? And it aint cause Liston aint tryin. Anyone with an ounce of ability to read these guys body language knows they are both intent on victory, one smells it and the other is feeling it slip away. In this round Liston tends to look confused and tentative and a bit embarrassed.

Round 6 Clay.

I think Liston or his corner chooses not to take the beating he/they know is coming here. He shakes his head negatively, THE MOMENT he arrives at his corner. His cornermen are nearly silent and looking sullen. If Liston hurt his left shoulder, you could never have guessed it by the last very powerful left Jab he threw in the 6th, Was it his right that he claimed was injured? I thought it was the left? I forget. You COULD make a case that his right shoulder was bugging him in that last round. Missing throwing big punches can give you all kinds of misery I suppose. We are told that his corner and not Liston made this decision. So Liston should not be held in contempt here. He wanted to come back out.


And that's all for that fight.


However, Take a close look at Liston's NEXT fight......there is very little difference in the way Liston fights in his next go round. He has far more success because the fella he is facing does not have Ali's abilities. (I always refer to Clay as Clay until he announces his name change, and I then always refer to him as Ali, this was his expressed preference as I understand it)

[BoxBuzz]

Oops and Just to get back on topic, I still think Armstrong is a strong favorite to beat Valero.

[Kalan]

Hank by early KO. Valero was going to get exposed soon enough. His chin was on a platter.

You guys never checked the videos on YouTube.com... Never ONCE!!!

Armstrong's chin was on a platter... He led with his head lost to guys who were no good... He lost to guys who couldn't box or punch -- pathetic!!!

Valero won every fight he ever fought --- AND he took it out of the judges' hands... He knocked out every one he ever fought...

[BoxBuzz]

Hank by early KO. Valero was going to get exposed soon enough. His chin was on a platter.

You guys never checked the videos on YouTube.com... Never ONCE!!!

Armstrong's chin was on a platter... He led with his head lost to guys who were no good... He lost to guys who couldn't box or punch -- pathetic!!!

Valero won every fight he ever fought --- AND he took it out of the judges' hands... He knocked out every one he ever fought...

Maybe others simply think differently.


I noticed you simply ignored your own challenge. Cmon, give a bit of insight to the Liston Clay fight. What's it gonna hurt?

[gilgamesh]

Hank by early KO. Valero was going to get exposed soon enough. His chin was on a platter.

You guys never checked the videos on YouTube.com... Never ONCE!!!

Armstrong's chin was on a platter... He led with his head lost to guys who were no good... He lost to guys who couldn't box or punch -- pathetic!!!

Valero won every fight he ever fought --- AND he took it out of the judges' hands... He knocked out every one he ever fought...

Valero also never fought anybody particularly dangerous. He was rumored to be in talks to fight Juan Manuel Marquez before he died, Marquez would've forever ended the mythical status he now enjoys amongst dumbasses like you because he would've picked him apart and knocked him out easily.

[Kalan]

Valero also never fought anybody particularly dangerous. He was rumored to be in talks to fight Juan Manuel Marquez before he died, Marquez would've forever ended the mythical status he now enjoys amongst dumbasses like you because he would've picked him apart and knocked him out easily.

Valero would have murdered Marquez.. He was way too fast, strong, and hard punching for him.. He stopped guys like Antonio DeMarco, 23-1-1 and Vicente Mosquera, 24-1-1 in World Title Fights. They had never been knocked out or stopped before in their careers ... He also destroyed tough veteran Antonio Pitalua, 47-3 in 2 rounds.. People didn't expect that.

Look at all the weak, cherry-picked opponents Armstrong fought while he was racking up 21 losses and 9 draws... Armstrong fought a guy 0-2 in his 96th fight... Armstrong fought a guy 0-0-1 in his 29th fight... Armstrong fought a guy 4-0-1 in his 65th fight... Armstrong also fought guys coming off long strings of losses to pad up his record... That's how they often did it in those days so the newspapers and fight posters carried their impressive sounding record... Fans had NO way of checking ridiculously padded up records but now we do -- thanks to Websites like this one... Also viewing Armstrong's actual fights on YouTube will reveal that he lacked skills and led with his head... He illegally pushed, shoved, and levered with his head all night... Homicide Hank often butted people right in the face... and his skills were fairly crude for such a super hyped up fighter... But I don't think Valero haters are objective enough to view Armstrong's actual fights to verify this.. They prefer going with the myth.

[BoxBuzz]

Kalan, you don't engage in any serious discussion that challenges your rather unusual theories.


Who can blame you.....structuring sensible thoughtful feedback, is not as much fun as imagining.

[Kalan]

Right... And you aren't capable of doing that. It's impossible to discuss Boxing at a high intellectual level if YOU won't study records, study video, think in terms of Boxing Styles and Dynamics, or try to get your brain around the facts that information supplies you with - to come up with objective conclusions. Instead you rely on myth, majority public opinion, and "expert" historians who have never boxed or trained boxers in their lives, but use a pompous pseudo-intellectual approach and ridiculous pretense to assume a knowledgeable façade. They never lay a dollar on a fight because eventually they’d get their asses busted.

You could start by actually WATCHING videos on Henry Armstrong to see whether or not he actually boxed masterfully and cleverly – or if he led with his head, and used it illegally to butt, shove, and leverage his opponents into a position where he could punch them as I claim, and realize he fought 30 fights he DIDN’T win. And also watch Edwin Valero’s available fights and try to get a fair grasp of his speed, power, and boxing ability... Because this is what this discussion should be all about – your independent thoughts and any unique insights YOU might have – and not whose position is the most popular and who’s presenting the alternative viewpoint.