JOHN L. SULLIVAN, THE EARLY YEARS

[Brutu]

-Historical Marker-Mississippi City-Harrison County MS.

During the late 1970's,a historical marker was placed at the site
of the John L. Sullivan vrs Paddy Ryan fight that took place
February.9.1882 in Mississippi City.
The site had once been the front lawn of the luxurious Barnes Hotel
The Barnes Hotel burned down around 1904,
and for years it was an empty space that was made into a park(Forrest Park).
Some of the old oak tree grove that they fought under was
still there in the 1970's.
There was still at least one oak tree in which the 3 foot tall marker
was placed next to it.
In 2005 Hurricane Katrina probably destroyed whatever oak trees were left and also the marker.
But if you want to see the spot,
go on US Highway 90,one block west of Courthouse road
between Texas and Arkansas Streets.
(the old Courthouse (estbl. 1841 was also destroyed by Katrina,but
they are thinking of re-building it with the original bricks)
Last time i had heard all of the historical markers in the area were lost in Hurricane
Katrina,but if you go to 109 East Beach Boulevard, they may have replaced it by now.

http://www.city.passchristian.net/great_fight.htm

[Brutu]

I found this helpful thread from 2009.
As far as where John L. Sullivan had lived over the course of his life.

http://boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=136018


John L. Sullivan was born at 5 East Concord Street in 1858
in a house across the Street from Boston College were
approx. Boston University Medical Hospital is now.

[Brutu]

Thank you very much HomicideHenry, what an excellent read - I appreciate the time and effort you put into this.
I would love to read more about John L's opponents, especially any extra info about those he fought on his 'Grand Tour'.
Steve

here is a link to a newspaper article originally published
in the San Francisco Chronicle February.10.1918.
About the time Sullivan was in Butte Montana
on his Grand Knockout Tour of 1883-84.


http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bi ... 504.2.61.2

*Curiously I can find no mention of a "Dominic Hanafin"
listed as an opponent on any of Sullivan's exhibition tours.
Sullivan was in Butte Montana for 3 days in January 1884.
Could this be a previously unknown opponent on the tour?
However this story sounds a little famaliar though.
Maybe its been
changed around.

[The Great John L]

Thank you very much HomicideHenry, what an excellent read - I appreciate the time and effort you put into this.
I would love to read more about John L's opponents, especially any extra info about those he fought on his 'Grand Tour'.
Steve

here is a link to a newspaper article originally published
in the San Francisco Chronicle February.10.1918.
About the time Sullivan was in Butte Montana
on his Grand Knockout Tour of 1883-84.


http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bi ... 504.2.61.2

*Curiously I can find no mention of a "Dominic Hanafin"
listed as an opponent on any of Sullivan's exhibition tours.
Sullivan was in Butte Montana for 3 days in January 1884.
Could this be a previously unknown opponent on the tour?
However this story sounds a little famaliar though.
Maybe its been
changed around.

A 1918 telling of an 1884 occurence could be a little inaccurate, although it's unlikely that all of John L's fights/exhibitions are documented.

[Brutu]

It sort of sounds like the exhibition bout that Sullivan had in Memphis TN,
April.29.1884,
In his 1892 Autobiography,
when a local physician brought in a fighter named"Fleming"
to win a thousand dollars.
Sullivan threw one punch and the man was out for 20 minutes.
It was a record for shortest gloved fight(two seconds).
But then again may Dominic Hanafin had lasted 10 seconds?

[Brutu]

I found this helpful thread from 2009.
As far as where John L. Sullivan had lived over the course of his life.

http://boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=136018

From 1862 to 1868,John L. Sullivan lived at 376 Amee Place Shawmut Avenue,just about were Ramsey Park is today.

[Brutu]

Sullivan had trained at O'Donnell's Gymnasium
which was located at the corner of East Concord and Washington Streets
(just across the street and over from the historic Franklin Square House
at Washington Street and 11 East Newton streets)

http://books.google.com/books?id=hmw3of ... g=PA156&dq

*What is known of O'Donnell's Gymnasium?
From what I gather it was opened up in Boston by Australian heavyweight
Steve O'Donnell who was fighting in America during the early 1890's.
(O'Donnell fought Jake Kilrain to a draw in Boston 1895)
Jim Jeffries had trained at O'Donnells gymnasium
when he was preparing to fight Jack Monroe in San Francisco
in January 1904

[Brutu]

Here is the Cyclorama Building located at 539 Tremont Street in Boston.
Built in 1884 it originally housed the enormous 400x50 ft.
painting of The Battle of Gettysburg and later
the cyclorama painting of Custer's Last Stand.
John L. Sullivan trained and did an exhibition (or two) here in 1894
(presumabably the two 3 round exhibitions with Paddy Ryan in
May and June 1894).
scroll down to lower left of page to see the Cyclorama Building.


http://books.google.com/books?id=hmw3of ... g=PA149&dq

[Brutu]

I found this helpful thread from 2009.
As far as where John L. Sullivan had lived over the course of his life.

http://boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=136018

From 1862 to 1868,John L. Sullivan lived at 376 Amee Place Shawmut Avenue,just about were Ramsey Park is today.

I believe it was the Rice Primary School on West Concord Street
that Sullivan attened.Then to Dwight Grammar School on Springfield Street.

[Brutu]

Another thing that perhaps John L. Sullivan may be the first in doing was
the first to use the Stare down(of sorts)
whenever he entered the ring he had a scowl on his face looking over at his opponent,
who sometimes gave up then and there almost.
Check out this rare photograph of the Sullivan vrs. Kilrain bout.
You can partially see the fighting expression on Sullivan's face
somewhat obscured by the back of Kilrain's head.
Sullivan has the look of force and determination on it.
(click photo to enlarge)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... rain_5.jpg

[Brutu]

Another thing that perhaps John L. Sullivan may be the first in doing was
the first to use the Stare down(of sorts)
whenever he entered the ring he had a scowl on his face looking over at his opponent,
who sometimes gave up then and there almost.
Check out this rare photograph of the Sullivan vrs. Kilrain bout.
You can partially see the fighting expression on Sullivan's face
somewhat obscured by the back of Kilrain's head.
Sullivan has the look of force and determination on it.
(click photo to enlarge)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... rain_5.jpg

In looking at the eyes and the expression of John L. there in that photo,
it sort of reminded me of a certain scene in a famous movie from 1975.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VquLerRp-ps

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.bareknuckleboxinghalloffame.com/id2.html

Thanks to Zojo for finding this interesting interview done during Sullivan's stay at William Muldoon's in preperation for his fight with Jake Kilrain.

[HomicideHenry]

^^^Sullivan in 1889 in fighting shape for Jake Kilrain (notice the muscularity of the arms and chest)




^^^Sullivan @ Coney Island in the 1890's-1910's

[brendanshapiro]

John L. figures in two of his cousin/author Richard Sullivan's "The First Ward" book series. In book 2 the cousins all get together at Muldoon's in Belfast as John L. struggles with maintaining his training regimen for the Kilrain fight:
http://amzn.com/1478172932
In book 3 John L. attends a dance at the Mutual Rowing Club in Buffalo brimming with Sullivans:
http://amzn.com/1515212513
Author Sullivan put news clippings of the event online at http://www.mutualrowingclub.com/Mutual_ ... livan.html

[Caractacus]

This version may have been more like O'Donnell Abu as sung by John L.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c3lqpRxqw4

[Cap]

No doubt Sullivan was a great fist-fighter in his day, but it was as much like actual boxing as MMA is today. Sullivan would have lost to most real boxers unless he landed one of his windmill wild punches or tackled his opponent and fell on them with his knees. Corbett was the first real boxing champion when he whipped Mitchell after going 61 rounds with the great Peter Jackson. Sullivan's opponents were just a step-up from tavern brawlers.

[Ambling Alp II]

You aren't being fair to him, Cap. Of course he fought a lot of "tavern brawler" or those types. He fought literally anyone (white of course) around.
However, they weren't all bad. Charley Mitchell and Jake Kilrain were good fighters.
If he was that bad, he never would have lasted until the 21st round against Corbett after being out for three years.
My guess is that he was not as crude as some people may think.

[Cap]

You aren't being fair to him, Cap. Of course he fought a lot of "tavern brawler" or those types. He fought literally anyone (white of course) around.
However, they weren't all bad. Charley Mitchell and Jake Kilrain were good fighters.
If he was that bad, he never would have lasted until the 21st round against Corbett after being out for three years.
My guess is that he was not as crude as some people may think.

I just finished reading Adam Pollack's bio of Corbett. Corbett was afraid of Sullivan landing a solid punch so he ran and ducked and slipped to tire the old man out. As for Mitchell, he was barely a middleweight. Five nine and 150 pounds when he fought Sullivan for real with gloves on. Jake Kilrain was a cyclist turned boxer whose best win was a 44 round knockout of light heavyweight George Godfrey. Fourty-four rounds! Still, he was easily Sullivan's best opponent. Too bad they fought London Prize Ring Rules. Pretty much MMA stuff. Clutching, grabbing, rolling around, choke holds. Throw a guy down and land on his stomach with your knees!

Sullivan was unbeatable in his prime because there was no one remotely like him at what he did. Guys who could actually box tended to be too small to hurt him or take his KO punch (Irish Jack Burke, Dominick McCaffrey, etc), the ones who were as big or bigger had little or no skill (Herbert Slade, Paddy Ryan, etc). When he finally met a guy who was his own size and could actually box he lost. Corbett probably could have stopped Sullivan earlier but he didn't have the nerve. He was more interested in acting on stage than fighting in the ring.

Sullivan was one of the big names in sports back then, along with Ned Hanlan the world champion sculler, even though most states outlawed what he did. I think Peter Jackson, Frank Slavin, Joe Goddard, Joe Choynski, Bob Fitzsimmons, and a few other boxers from the Glove Era would have beaten him easily Marquis of Queensberry Rules and five ounce gloves. That's just my opinion though, based on all I've read over the years.

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't think LPR fighting was like MMA. It was closer to regular boxing than that. They weren't allowed to roll around on the ground or choke their opponents.
Kilrain also had a draw that went over 100 rounds. The guy had to have some ability.
Sullivan was no just a really good barroom brawler. He had on record 41 fights with gloves. He probably had many more that were not recorded.
Sullivan did not get completely dominated by Corbett; he did score a knockdown against Corbett.
He was 34 years old and had not fought in three years when he fought a prime Corbett. I don't know how much we can hold the Corbett fight against him.

[Cap]

Great respect for your opinion. No doubt Kilrain and others had great stamina. So did my grandad when he was in his prime. Kilrain was a champion cyclist and a sculler too I think. However, where ring science is concerned I don't believe most of those LPR gents had a clue. It was smash and get smashed, and I don't mean in a good way. Sullivan was considered clever because he would duck under a punch rather than take it full in the mush like Ryan, Coburn, Flood and the rest were liable to.

[Ambling Alp II]

In some ways I agree with you. I doubt most of Sullivan's opponents were that good; whether the fights were bareknuckles or with gloves. Many were simply inexperienced. However, a small percentage had decent boxing skills or were simply really tough. Obviously we don't have film to rely on or anyone that is alive that was there. Supposedly opponents like Mike Donovan and John Donaldson had decent boxing skills. Kilrain was a s tough as nails. Mitchell though small, certainly had a lot ability.

Sullivan was really a key figure in a transistional stage. He fought more fights under Marquis of Queensbury Rules than many people relaize. He actually had more fightsd with gloves than Corbett and Jeffires. Corbett probably had more fights than on the official record; he told Tommy Loughran he had 39. Even so, Sullivan had more than that with gloves.
I don't believe that many of Sullivan's opponents were very good. However, he himself stood out from them. Of course we can just speculate, but my guess is that near his prime he would have been very competitive with say Peter Jackson, James Corbett and Bob Fitzsimmons.

[Caractacus]

I just figured That St. Patrick's Day was one of "Jawnell's" favorite days of the year.

[HomicideHenry]

Over 300 kayos during his career, reigning as Champion for twelve years under two different set of rules. What he did was simply incredible in many ways, taking a sport that was considered lower than rat baiting into a multi-million dollar enterprise that caught the attention and respect of heads of state around the world. Can you imagine a world where all there was were newspapers and telegraph wires, and yet people in the South Pacific were betting on his fights? He made over a million dollars in his lifetime, when the President of the United States made $20,000 per year and the average American was making nickels and dimes in sweat shops... All the while as a first generation Irish American in an era when they were considered "N-words turned inside out." He was also a professional baseball player and strongman and was the number one box office draw in theatres across the globe. It'd be like the UFC champion becoming the undisputed Boxing champion and playing for the Cincinnati Reds and starring in back to back blockbuster films as the lead. It's unimaginable today, but it's what he did. It's understandable, in retrospect, why nobody really took to Corbett and others following his retirement. They paled in comparison to the achievements and stardom that he did.

[Caractacus]

-Historical Marker-Mississippi City-Harrison County MS.

During the late 1970's,a historical marker was placed at the site
of the John L. Sullivan vrs Paddy Ryan fight that took place
February.9.1882 in Mississippi City.
The site had once been the front lawn of the luxurious Barnes Hotel
The Barnes Hotel burned down around 1904,
and for years it was an empty space that was made into a park(Forrest Park).
Some of the old oak tree grove that they fought under was
still there in the 1970's.
There was still at least one oak tree in which the 3 foot tall marker
was placed next to it.
In 2005 Hurricane Katrina probably destroyed whatever oak trees were left and also the marker.
But if you want to see the spot,
go on US Highway 90,one block west of Courthouse road
between Texas and Arkansas Streets.
(the old Courthouse (estbl. 1841 was also destroyed by Katrina,but
they are thinking of re-building it with the original bricks)
Last time i had heard all of the historical markers in the area were lost in Hurricane
Katrina,but if you go to 109 East Beach Boulevard, they may have replaced it by now.

http://www.city.passchristian.net/great_fight.htm

bump

[Caractacus]

If you ever visit New Orleans, you may want to
go to Royal Street,between Montegut Street and Clouet Street as that entire block was once the site of the
Olympic Athletic Club were John L. Sullivan had fought James J. Corbett in 1892.
The Building was destroyed by a fire(along with nine other buildings
in December.6. 1897.
Here is a link to several drawings of that time.

Exterior of the Olympic Club- Royal Street,New Orleans LA.



Interior

The one remaining wall of the old Olympic Club in New Orleans 9hopefully it is still there to visit).