SteveO wrote:Ali actually won the WBA title four times (if that counts)tobyh5 wrote:The CNN had someone say that he was the first four-time heavyweight champion and so it went on.
1. Sonny Liston
2. Ernie Terrell
3. George Foreman
4. Leon Spinks
Ricky_ wrote:CaptainSpacerod wrote:Clay was his name whether he liked it or not. Some invented islamic name given to him by a headcase doesn't change that fact.Ricky_ wrote:I don't think largely irrelevant details such as the dates of fights really matter much in all honesty, with the thousands of colums and blogs there are bound to be some and you're wasting your time getting annoyed by it.
I did find David Haye's interview on Sky a little strange though. He spoke about Ali being his idol and Ali's influence being the very reason he became a boxer... Yet he wore a "Clay vs Liston" t-shirt and said he had named his son "Cassius", when there wasn't much things that offended Ali more than being called by his previous name.
Clay wasn't his name. It was the name of his family's slave masters.
You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.ClivePatrickLyons wrote:SteveO wrote:Ali actually won the WBA title four times (if that counts)tobyh5 wrote:The CNN had someone say that he was the first four-time heavyweight champion and so it went on.
1. Sonny Liston
2. Ernie Terrell
3. George Foreman
4. Leon Spinks
That's not right Ali was always said to be the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion its the first time i'v ever heard about 4 time Champion.
Kalan wrote:You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.ClivePatrickLyons wrote:SteveO wrote: Ali actually won the WBA title four times (if that counts)
1. Sonny Liston
2. Ernie Terrell
3. George Foreman
4. Leon Spinks
That's not right Ali was always said to be the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion its the first time i'v ever heard about 4 time Champion.
Holmes was a better all around fighter than Ali... He went 48-0... 20 straight Title Defenses... Beat Ray Mercer at 42... fought great Heavyweight Title Challenges at ages 43 and 45 versus Evander Holyfield and Oliver McCall... better jab.. better defense.. ducked and slipped punches better.. better body attack.. more aggressive.. grabbed and held a lot less than Ali.. That's why Ali didn't want to fight him and fought Leon Spinks, 6-0-1.ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Kalan wrote:You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.ClivePatrickLyons wrote:
That's not right Ali was always said to be the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion its the first time i'v ever heard about 4 time Champion.
Ali was way way way past his best in the late 70's after the thriller in Manilla he was a shadow of his former self and he was probably suffering from Parkinson syndrome when he beat Spinks so I for one will all ways call him the 3 time Heavyweight Champ he did earn it Holmes was a Great fighter but just not in Ali league.
Kalan wrote:Holmes was a better all around fighter than Ali... He went 48-0... 20 straight Title Defenses... Beat Ray Mercer at 42... fought great Heavyweight Title Challenges at ages 43 and 45 versus Evander Holyfield and Oliver McCall... better jab.. better defense.. ducked and slipped punches better.. better body attack.. more aggressive.. grabbed and held a lot less than Ali.. That's why Ali didn't want to fight him and fought Leon Spinks, 6-0-1.ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Kalan wrote:
You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.
Ali was way way way past his best in the late 70's after the thriller in Manilla he was a shadow of his former self and he was probably suffering from Parkinson syndrome when he beat Spinks so I for one will all ways call him the 3 time Heavyweight Champ he did earn it Holmes was a Great fighter but just not in Ali league.
Kalan wrote:. But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes...
Spinks still had the WBA beltKalan wrote:You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.ClivePatrickLyons wrote:SteveO wrote: Ali actually won the WBA title four times (if that counts)
1. Sonny Liston
2. Ernie Terrell
3. George Foreman
4. Leon Spinks
That's not right Ali was always said to be the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion its the first time i'v ever heard about 4 time Champion.
Ali had been stripped of the WBA title on September 14th 1964 because he had agreed to a rematch with Liston.Kalan wrote:You have to lose, abandon, or be stripped of a title to lose a championship... Then you have to win it back... Ali did that 3 times... But I don't really give him credit for losing and beating Leon Spinks for his 3rd Title... Ali was avoiding Larry Holmes... Holmes won the title that was stripped from Leon Spinks by beating Ken Norton... Ali ignored Holmes as if he didn't exist.. Ali fought the rematch with the stripped (and still underdog) Spinks and retired.. Ali fought Holmes 2 years later -- but the fight did very little for Holmes' reputation and I'm sure he wasn't happy to beat up an old Ali. It would have helped Holmes if Ali fought him instead of Spinks in the first place.. Everybody knew Ali was done 2 years later.ClivePatrickLyons wrote:SteveO wrote: Ali actually won the WBA title four times (if that counts)
1. Sonny Liston
2. Ernie Terrell
3. George Foreman
4. Leon Spinks
That's not right Ali was always said to be the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion its the first time i'v ever heard about 4 time Champion.
I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Those opponent's you mentioned are not Liston/Frazier/Foreman and besides all that in the 80's Ali would have been unbeatable.He was the 3 time Heavyweight Champion i'm not making it up
It's nothing to do with you though is it, if any man wants to change his name, he has a legal right to do so, just as he has the right to associate himself with any political or religious persuasion of his choice.CaptainSpacerod wrote:Technically I don't think you're right. Slavemasters may have given his ancestors that name but generations of his family had I presume lived quite happily with that name after Emancipation which in my book makes it his name. I don't think many black people in America followed suit and changed their name as the civil rights movement took it's course.Ricky_ wrote:CaptainSpacerod wrote:
Clay was his name whether he liked it or not. Some invented islamic name given to him by a headcase doesn't change that fact.
Clay wasn't his name. It was the name of his family's slave masters.
Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.Kalan wrote:I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Those opponent's you mentioned are not Liston/Frazier/Foreman and besides all that in the 80's Ali would have been unbeatable.He was the 3 time Heavyweight Champion i'm not making it up
Oooh get you James ! Calm down man,jamesmcdonnell wrote:It's nothing to do with you though is it, if any man wants to change his name, he has a legal right to do so, just as he has the right to associate himself with any political or religious persuasion of his choice.CaptainSpacerod wrote:Technically I don't think you're right. Slavemasters may have given his ancestors that name but generations of his family had I presume lived quite happily with that name after Emancipation which in my book makes it his name. I don't think many black people in America followed suit and changed their name as the civil rights movement took it's course.Ricky_ wrote:
Clay wasn't his name. It was the name of his family's slave masters.
If you don't like it, tough shite, his name at his death was Muhammad Ali. End of.
I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.jamesmcdonnell wrote:Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.Kalan wrote:I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.ClivePatrickLyons wrote:Those opponent's you mentioned are not Liston/Frazier/Foreman and besides all that in the 80's Ali would have been unbeatable.He was the 3 time Heavyweight Champion i'm not making it up
Ali would've kicked Tyson's ass. He could've taken Tyson's shots, and outboxed him through most rounds, and ultimately his greater will and determination would've broken Tyson down. Tyson never was able to deal with skilled opponents who weren't shaking in their boots at the sight of him. Tyson would win about 4 or 5 rounds I figure, but Ali would stop him late in the fight.Kalan wrote:I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.jamesmcdonnell wrote:Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.Kalan wrote:
I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.
gilgamesh wrote:Ali would've kicked Tyson's ass. He could've taken Tyson's shots, and outboxed him through most rounds, and ultimately his greater will and determination would've broken Tyson down. Tyson never was able to deal with skilled opponents who weren't shaking in their boots at the sight of him. Tyson would win about 4 or 5 rounds I figure, but Ali would stop him late in the fight.Kalan wrote:I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.
It's not for anyone else to tell Ali what he should be called.CaptainSpacerod wrote:Clay was his name whether he liked it or not. Some invented islamic name given to him by a headcase doesn't change that fact.Ricky_ wrote:I don't think largely irrelevant details such as the dates of fights really matter much in all honesty, with the thousands of colums and blogs there are bound to be some and you're wasting your time getting annoyed by it.
I did find David Haye's interview on Sky a little strange though. He spoke about Ali being his idol and Ali's influence being the very reason he became a boxer... Yet he wore a "Clay vs Liston" t-shirt and said he had named his son "Cassius", when there wasn't much things that offended Ali more than being called by his previous name.
When did Ali crack?Kalan wrote:I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.jamesmcdonnell wrote:Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.Kalan wrote:
I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.
I think Kalan smokes crack.Syntax Error wrote:When did Ali crack?Kalan wrote:I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.
He lost fights, that's for sure, but not because he cracked; it was because the guys he fought were better than him on that day, aftre giving it his all.
His last 2 defeats should not really count as he should never have been in a boxing ring in 1980 nor 1981.
I think people should stop replying to his drivel.Ricky_ wrote:I think Kalan smokes crack.Syntax Error wrote:When did Ali crack?Kalan wrote:
I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.
He lost fights, that's for sure, but not because he cracked; it was because the guys he fought were better than him on that day, aftre giving it his all.
His last 2 defeats should not really count as he should never have been in a boxing ring in 1980 nor 1981.
Kalan wrote:I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.jamesmcdonnell wrote:Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.Kalan wrote:
I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.
Please list the names of the fighters you think Ali cracked against. Can't wait to read them.Kalan wrote:I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy...jamesmcdonnell wrote:Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.Kalan wrote:
I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.
Yeah, that's right - Ali, way past his prime, suffering from the early stages of Parkinson's was stopped on his feet against both Holmes and Berbick.Like a Boss wrote:Please list the names of the fighters you think Ali cracked against. Can't wait to read them.Kalan wrote:I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy...jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.
Kalan wrote:I saw Ali crack when he faced the wrong guy... I saw Tyson crack when he faced the wrong guy... Mental toughness takes you only so far. The reality of facing a tougher, stronger, and harder puncher takes over at some point - and facing a style that is just plain wrong for you is something you can't overcome... Tyson destroys Ali.jamesmcdonnell wrote:Whilst I agree that a peak Tyson had many tools to give Ali serious problems, especially his speed, I think Ali would have outlasted the initial future and outlasted Mike. Ali was mentally as tough as any fighter I've ever seen.Kalan wrote:
I don't see it that way ... You have to remember that Young outboxed Foreman... Frazier was crushed like a bug versus Foreman... Liston lost to a Light Heavyweight in the 1950's when his jaw was broken -- so it really depends how good somebody is on the night you fight him ... Holmes, Witherspoon, Page, Thomas, Tucker, Coatzee, and Tyson were 80s Heavyweights who had their great nights and their bad nights.. Ali had his bad nights too.. Mike Tyson had a pretty good night in June of 1988 - against Michael Spinks. Style wise that would be a very tough sled for Ali to deal with -- the peak Tyson who crushed Michael Spinks...the man who defeated Holmes for the Heavyweight Title ... In those days Iron Mike was so fast and powerful he could drive right past the best jab and batter crafty boxers such as Holmes, Spinks, and Truth Williams and get rid of them quickly.