Faster hands, Tyson or Ali?

[Dixonian]

Although he was a small heavyweight Floyd Patterson had faster hands than both of them but Ali definitely had quicker hand speed than Tyson.

I just don't see opponents unable to deal with Patterson's hand speed like they did with Ali. When they fought each other, Ali seemed to have much quicker hand speed. Patterson's hands were probably slightly faster than Tyson's.

What made Ali's quick hands harder to deal with was his size, reach and footwork. I remember Henry Cooper saying that Patterson had faster hands while Ali had faster feet.

Conversely, Chuvalo reckoned that Ali was marginally faster.

[Dixonian]

Tyson has blazingly fast hands and he had brutal power... Ali's hands were moderately fast and he couldn't get Alfredo Evangelista or Rudi Lubbers out of there... Now, obviously Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick brutalized Ali... Ali was too slow to hit them good... Tyson smashed Holmes and Berbick out very quickly and they couldn't get away from Mike's faster than fast hands that put them out in a hurry.

Of course you wouldn't want to take the above examples because Ali wasn't young like Mike was (20) when he knocked those guys out... So instead I'm going to take somebody Ali and Tyson fought when they were each only 21 ... Blown up Light Heavyweight Doug Jones (188) who Ali fought when he was 21... And blown up Light Heavyweight Michael Spinks (212) who Tyson fought when HE was 21...Ali was very slow fisted and missed a bunch of punches versus Dough Jones, who previously lost every round to Light Heavyweight Champion Harold Johnson. Ali barely won a controversial decision over Jones ... But Mike Tyson was blazing fast and super powerful handing the Undefeated ATG Light Heavyweight AND Heavyweight Champion Michael Spinks his FIRST and ONLY defeat of his professional career in 90 seconds... Tyson crushed Spinks... So there was a big differences in those performances when they were at their 21-year-old fastest as it related to hand speed.

I assume this guy's on the wind-up?

[Ambling Alp II]

Yeah, he is just another anti-Ali hater; always an excuse for Ali's opponents, he should not have this or that decision, he was somehow better after the exile etc. blah, blah. Just ignore him.

Anyway, just watching Ali in his prime, his hand speed just jumps out at you. You just don't see that with Patterson; or any other heavyweight for that matter.
I'm always on the fence whether to believe what fighters have to say about each other.
Chuvalo really seemed to have much more trouble with Ali's speed that he did with Patterson.

Looking at the Ali-Patterson fight in 1965, it seems obvious that Ali had superior hand speed from the get go.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Manny calls Barrera his toughest opponent. It's human nature. Ali had the fastest hands ever in a p4p sense.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

over 15 round's ali allday

? how do you know Tyson never fought a 15 round fight?

Ya wanna bet on it....... mmmmmm lets make it 1 million dollar's

['Frilla]

I think Ali putting combinations together was quicker than Tyson, but getting a single punch to its target the quickest, I will have to say Tyson.

[Dixonian]

Yeah, he is just another anti-Ali hater; always an excuse for Ali's opponents, he should not have this or that decision, he was somehow better after the exile etc. blah, blah. Just ignore him.

Anyway, just watching Ali in his prime, his hand speed just jumps out at you. You just don't see that with Patterson; or any other heavyweight for that matter.
I'm always on the fence whether to believe what fighters have to say about each other.
Chuvalo really seemed to have much more trouble with Ali's speed that he did with Patterson.

Looking at the Ali-Patterson fight in 1965, it seems obvious that Ali had superior hand speed from the get go.

Just been re-watching the early rounds of that fight and I don't feel it's conclusive. It's the combination of reach and speed that enables Ali to dictate from the 2nd round. But in pure handspeed I think it's very even. The problem Floyd has is getting into range to fire his own punches, so he's often having to lunge in - and when he does that it makes him look slower. But when he's firing without lunging I think the speed is very similar.

[Grilling Machine]

Although he was a small heavyweight Floyd Patterson had faster hands than both of them but Ali definitely had quicker hand speed than Tyson.

I was thinking of mentioning Floyd. Tyson has a 71" reach to Ali's 78, so it could be that Ali's hands were of similar speed but took longer to fully extend and carried less power. Ali seemed to have the faster jab, but again, its efficacy versus Tyson's might've been down to that extra reach, making it seem quicker.

My guess is that Patterson had the fastest hands, but with the same reach as Tyson. And that there was very little in speed between Tyson and Ali, but a clear difference in power and reach.

[Syntax Error]

Actually Cleveland Williams was a paraplegic (or was it quadriplegic?) when he faced Ali.......so you can't count that.

EVEN THOUGH...he seemed to do very well against other opponents both before and after his fight with Ali. We (or you) are not allowed to factor that in.

Anything Ali did in that fight, can not be factored in.....because Cleveland was shot, and absolutely could not have had the capacity to muster anything of consideration. There was no such thing as physical rehabilitation back then, so once injured, it was all over for Williams. The fact that Ali didn't flatten Cleveland within 5 seconds of the opening bell probably indicates (to many who have opined in the past) that Ali was washed up by the time this fight took place.

So no kudos for performance, no indication of power, and it is very misleading to use this event to attempt to gain any insight into Ali's abilities.

I hope I have cleared this up.

No, I think you're mistaken; Cleveland Williams was actually dead when he fought Ali.

That 'bloke' in the ring was a hologram.

[The End]

Actually Cleveland Williams was a paraplegic (or was it quadriplegic?) when he faced Ali.......so you can't count that.

EVEN THOUGH...he seemed to do very well against other opponents both before and after his fight with Ali. We (or you) are not allowed to factor that in.

Anything Ali did in that fight, can not be factored in.....because Cleveland was shot, and absolutely could not have had the capacity to muster anything of consideration. There was no such thing as physical rehabilitation back then, so once injured, it was all over for Williams. The fact that Ali didn't flatten Cleveland within 5 seconds of the opening bell probably indicates (to many who have opined in the past) that Ali was washed up by the time this fight took place.

So no kudos for performance, no indication of power, and it is very misleading to use this event to attempt to gain any insight into Ali's abilities.

I hope I have cleared this up.

No, I think you're mistaken; Cleveland Williams was actually dead when he fought Ali.

That 'bloke' in the ring was a hologram.

[Kalan]

Actually Cleveland Williams was a paraplegic (or was it quadriplegic?) when he faced Ali.......so you can't count that.

EVEN THOUGH...he seemed to do very well against other opponents both before and after his fight with Ali. We (or you) are not allowed to factor that in.

Anything Ali did in that fight, can not be factored in.....because Cleveland was shot, and absolutely could not have had the capacity to muster anything of consideration. There was no such thing as physical rehabilitation back then, so once injured, it was all over for Williams. The fact that Ali didn't flatten Cleveland within 5 seconds of the opening bell probably indicates (to many who have opined in the past) that Ali was washed up by the time this fight took place.

So no kudos for performance, no indication of power, and it is very misleading to use this event to attempt to gain any insight into Ali's abilities.

I hope I have cleared this up.

No, I think you're mistaken; Cleveland Williams was actually dead when he fought Ali

You don't have to be dead to be gone.

[BoxBuzz]

No, I think you're mistaken; Cleveland Williams was actually dead when he fought Ali

You don't have to be dead to be gone.

Please take note of Clevelands other performances in and around that time......not dead Kalan....even if not at his best.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He would have never beaten Ali, to pretend he was anything but 'shot' is farcical.

[BoxBuzz]

He would have never beaten Ali, to pretend he was anything but 'shot' is farcical.

"Shot" literally yes........as to it's less clinical meaning.....Well that's an opinion.....and maybe a good assumption....AND he has a record that can be reviewed, and that's got to be somewhat considered as well. He wasn't so shot that he couldn't turn in some wins around that time.

A determined person engaging in rehab can produce some pretty amazing results.

Just be sure to wrap your mind around the entirety of the story.

He probably still had enough to give Wilt Chamberlain a go.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He would have never beaten Ali, to pretend he was anything but 'shot' is farcical.

"Shot" literally yes........as to it's less clinical meaning.....Well that's an opinion.....and maybe a good assumption....AND he has a record that can be reviewed, and that's got to be somewhat considered as well. He wasn't so shot that he couldn't turn in some wins around that time.

A determined person engaging in rehab can produce some pretty amazing results.

Just be sure to wrap your mind around the entirety of the story.

He probably still had enough to give Wilt Chamberlain a go.

He did nothing impressive after the shooting, yes, he still would have iced Wilt. That means nothing, I could have taken Wilt.

[Kalan]

You don't have to be dead to be gone.

Please take note of Clevelands other performances in and around that time......not dead Kalan....even if not at his best.

I DID take note of them. YOU DIDN'T!!! ... Before he fought Ali in Nov 1966, Williams' last fight against a contender was a losing effort versus Ernie Terrell in 1963.. Williams knocked Terrell out in 7 one year before that, so he was obviously slipping.. At Williams' best circa 1959-60, Sonny Liston knocked him out twice.. Williams was shot by a cop in 1964 and almost died.. He lost intestines, lost a kidney and lost musculature around his right hip.. He also suffered partial paralysis of some hip muscles.. He lost 70 pounds undergoing numerous operations for 7 months before he could start rehabbing.. They never got the bullet out. When Williams came back in 1966 he fought super easy opponents and then fought Ali in November of that year. He was a shell and never beat another contender after he beat Terrell in 1963. He got knocked out 4 more times after the Ali fight when he tried to step up the competition ,,. He beat Terry Daniels by decision, and Ali fanatics point to that. But that was the 2nd loss of a 6-fight losing streak for the seriously undersized Heavyweight Daniels.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

That means nothing, I could have taken Wilt.

- Such are things fatboys sing whistling Over the Rainbow in falsetto when walking past the graveyards of the greats.

Ali never attempted any other sport, but wilt did and the result the stuff of legend. He's 80 now, dead 17 years, yet still relevant. The only place you'll be taken is a local rendering plant where no doubt your lard is sufficient to power a small town for a year.

Returning to the topic, I go with the consensus that Ali had the quick flicks, but when Tyson went off, it was like a bomb with the survivor needing immediate care.

[Kalan]

The things that drives really fast combination punches are muscles in the arms, shoulders, back, and chest - particularly the arms... At his peak, and for his size (and Tyson's hands were very small for a Heavyweight) Tyson had some of the most pronounced upper body musculature of any boxer ever. Foreman was 6'3" X 217 in his best condition ever for Foreman-Frazier 1.. Tyson was 5'11" X 218 for probably his best condition ever vs Michael Spinks.. Four inches shorter and ripped to the gills - and his weight was virtually the same as Foreman's at his peak condition.

Tyson wasn't a real great boxer and he wasn't really big on boxing skills.. "Boxing isn't too complicated, you just walk out there and hit him." What he did have is speed and power.. A funny thing about power is that speed is one of major components needed to generate it, and Tyson had a lot of it.

[Like a Boss]

Tyson wasn't a real great boxer...

What is the measure of being a great boxer?

Winning boxing matches?

Knocking people out?

Winning world titles?

Tyson was highly proficient at all of those things.

[Kalan]

Tyson wasn't a real great boxer...

What is the measure of being a great boxer?

Winning boxing matches?

Knocking people out?

Winning world titles?

Tyson was highly proficient at all of those things.

That all measures a great fighter -- which Tyson was... A great boxer has a superb defense... great footwork and jab.. deft counterpunching skills.. and generally boxes people ears off while controlling the ring space, the pace, and the distance, while dictating the style of fight being fought, i.e. fighting his fight and not the other guy's fight... Kind of like Douglas, Holyfield, and Lewis did in their fights with Tyson... The greatest boxer doesn't necessarily have the fastest hands or hardest punch -- but he's the best technician.

[man]

The things that drives really fast combination punches are muscles in the arms, shoulders, back, and chest - particularly the arms... At his peak, and for his size (and Tyson's hands were very small for a Heavyweight) Tyson had some of the most pronounced upper body musculature of any boxer ever. Foreman was 6'3" X 217 in his best condition ever for Foreman-Frazier 1.. Tyson was 5'11" X 218 for probably his best condition ever vs Michael Spinks.. Four inches shorter and ripped to the gills - and his weight was virtually the same as Foreman's at his peak condition.

Tyson wasn't a real great boxer and he wasn't really big on boxing skills.. "Boxing isn't too complicated, you just walk out there and hit him." What he did have is speed and power.. A funny thing about power is that speed is one of major components needed to generate it, and Tyson had a lot of it.

disagree on almost every thing. first,
muscle more often than not is in the
way of speed rather than promoting
it. second, mike tyson was tremendous
at his peak in his early twenties. he was
extremely fast and extremely difficult to
hit due to his upper body movement and
both of these on top of being a devastating
puncher.

no, he was no "boxer" in terms of "boxing".
he obviously was a puncher rather than a
boxer. but goodness he was great. it was
not only psychology that made him the most
feared fighter since foreman before ali. i do
not think many boxers in history where that
feared, literally feared by their top opponents
as much as mike was. i have yet to see another
spinks, who seemed to be almost shivering
with fear. and people were afraid for a reason.

tyson's career was overshadowed by obscurity
and his legacy suffered big time from his weird
life. he might have been overrated back in the
day, but now he seems underrated to me. he is
in my top ten of all time and nobody stands in
front of 22 year old mike tyson and believes he
has an easy night ahead.

[Kalan]

The things that drives really fast combination punches are muscles in the arms, shoulders, back, and chest - particularly the arms... At his peak, and for his size (and Tyson's hands were very small for a Heavyweight) Tyson had some of the most pronounced upper body musculature of any boxer ever. Foreman was 6'3" X 217 in his best condition ever for Foreman-Frazier 1.. Tyson was 5'11" X 218 for probably his best condition ever vs Michael Spinks.. Four inches shorter and ripped to the gills - and his weight was virtually the same as Foreman's at his peak condition.

Tyson wasn't a real great boxer and he wasn't really big on boxing skills.. "Boxing isn't too complicated, you just walk out there and hit him." What he did have is speed and power.. A funny thing about power is that speed is one of major components needed to generate it, and Tyson had a lot of it.

disagree on almost every thing. first,
muscle more often than not is in the
way of speed rather than promoting
it.

The ONLY things that produce speed are your muscles... Without muscles you have ZERO speed.. Your bone frame and other physiology are passive, while your muscles drive the punches and retract them.. Your gloves are 10 ounce weights. Your wraps lend another 3 ounces.. The more powerful your muscles are -- given the same form, agility, flexibility, balance, and with the same mental intensity and emotional effort exerted to execute those punches as well as possible, the faster and harder those punches will be driven... The weaker your muscles are, the slower and softer those punches will be driven - everything else being equal... That's why they test for steroids, but you don't need them to develop extremely powerful muscles.

[man]

The ONLY things that produce speed are your muscles... Without muscles you have ZERO speed.. Your bone frame and other physiology are passive, while your muscles drive the punches and retract them.. Your gloves are 10 ounce weights. Your wraps lend another 3 ounces.. The more powerful your muscles are -- given the same form, agility, flexibility, balance, and with the same mental intensity and emotional effort exerted to execute those punches as well as possible, the faster and harder those punches will be driven... The weaker your muscles are, the slower and softer those punches will be driven - everything else being equal... That's why they test for steroids, but you don't need them to develop extremely powerful muscles.

mike tyson vs ray leonard

both same height. who was faster?

[barry]

As it has already been said, Ali had the faster jab, but Tyson's power punches is right at the very top of the fastest hand list. Ali had better footwork than Tyson, not faster, overall better! Tyson, at his very best (Spinks and before), could beat any heavyweight that ever lived...the very same thing can be said of Ali!

[Kalan]

The ONLY things that produce speed are your muscles... Without muscles you have ZERO speed.. Your bone frame and other physiology are passive, while your muscles drive the punches and retract them.. Your gloves are 10 ounce weights. Your wraps lend another 3 ounces.. The more powerful your muscles are -- given the same form, agility, flexibility, balance, and with the same mental intensity and emotional effort exerted to execute those punches as well as possible, the faster and harder those punches will be driven... The weaker your muscles are, the slower and softer those punches will be driven - everything else being equal... That's why they test for steroids, but you don't need them to develop extremely powerful muscles.

mike tyson vs ray leonard

both same height. who was faster?

Mike was an inch taller. HIs hands were faster on a straight power shot and retraction. They blasted in there faster than Sugar Ray's. Leonard was more skilled, slicker, smarter, and more calculated in his approach. Leonard had better intuition and anticipated the opening better than Iron Mike. He was a better chess player. Therefore Leonard would set-up a fraction ahead of Tyson at his best. You can't say the man who lands the most and best punches is the fastest. He's the best boxer. Timing beats speed.

Now you might say "Douglas and Lewis were faster than Tyson because they beat him to the punch every step of the way." Well..the same thing happened of Ray Leonard to a lesser degree when he fought Duran the first time -- and to a greater extent when he fought Terry Norris. Duran wasn't faster. He was a lot smaller and shorter. He had more boxing experience. Duran was better prepared mentally and physically for THAT particular fight. Terry Norris was a fraction faster than Leonard I believe, but the thing that enabled Norris to beat up Leonard so easily is he was more confident in his preparation, balance, distance, and skills. Norris knew Leonard was inactive. He knew SRL was fighting cherry picks and washed up fighters. He also knew Leonard thought he was chinny. Norris boxed to his best capabilities and Leonard couldn't get near his chin. A bad chin is only a liability if your opponent can hit it -- as Tyson found out with Douglas -- you need to land a good shot even on a chinless guy.

SRL was also more consistent with his boxing career than Tyson. He didn't deviate into alternative life styles and women by the dozen as often.