Foreman vs Liston

IKSRTFO · Post by **IKSRTFO** » 12 Jun 2016, 21:30

What happens

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 12 Jun 2016, 21:35

I think Liston would've been able to thwart a lot of Foreman's attack with his jab, and would've knocked Foreman out late in the fight after Foreman burnt himself out. It'd be a wild fight though. Foreman would certainly hurt or drop Liston somewhere along the way you'd have to think.

Kalan · Post by **Kalan** » 13 Jun 2016, 01:02

I think a prime Liston wins... If you saw Jimmy Young outbox Foreman, popping him often with the jab... and saw a very old Liston outbox Henry Clark... and a younger but aging Liston outbox Eddie Machen... and saw Liston destroy Floyd Patterson twice... and then if you realize Liston's 1st Ali fight was dead even after 6 rounds with Liston forced to quit because of a badly torn left biceps... and when you realize referee Joe Walcott never gave Liston a count in the Ali rematch, because Ali refused to go to a neutral corner... You can start to see where fate played a big part in Liston's career.. Prime Liston had a very good jab in the mid to late 50's... The jab was Foreman's bugaboo because George slipped and ducked punches very poorly ... So I figure if Liston fought a disciplined fight circa the 1959 version of Liston, and had his best jab going against any version of George, he'd have a good chance.

Besides being in prison for a number of years Liston fought only 1 fight in 1956 and ZERO fights in 1957... In the 3 years leading up to his 1st Ali fight Liston only saw 3 rounds of ring action in 3 complete style mismatches with Westphal and Patterson... basically 1 round a year... When you see those long periods of inactivity and low activity in a boxer's career they often spell trouble.. Liston wasn't the same force in the 1960's as in the 50's.

Cutman Scabbers · Post by **Cutman Scabbers** » 13 Jun 2016, 05:03

Kalan wrote:I think a prime Liston wins... If you saw Jimmy Young outbox Foreman, popping him often with the jab... and saw a very old Liston outbox Henry Clark... and a younger but aging Liston outbox Eddie Machen... and saw Liston destroy Floyd Patterson twice... and then if you realize Liston's 1st Ali fight was dead even after 6 rounds with Liston forced to quit because of a badly torn left biceps... and when you realize referee Joe Walcott never gave Liston a count in the Ali rematch, because Ali refused to go to a neutral corner... You can start to see where fate played a big part in Liston's career.. Prime Liston had a very good jab in the mid to late 50's... The jab was Foreman's bugaboo because George slipped and ducked punches very poorly ... So I figure if Liston fought a disciplined fight circa the 1959 version of Liston, and had his best jab going against any version of George, he'd have a good chance.

Besides being in prison for a number of years Liston fought only 1 fight in 1956 and ZERO fights in 1957... In the 3 years leading up to his 1st Ali fight Liston only saw 3 rounds of ring action in 3 complete style mismatches with Westphal and Patterson... basically 1 round a year... When you see those long periods of inactivity and low activity in a boxer's career they often spell trouble.. Liston wasn't the same force in the 1960's as in the 50's.

What a fight this would be! If you want to know the answer, the second most important
question is: could Liston have beaten himself? And the answer is... whatever it is. Then
ask yourself the most important question: could Liston have beaten a bigger,
stronger, smarter version of himself?

abdelfadeeli · Post by **abdelfadeeli** » 13 Jun 2016, 10:19

Cutman Scabbers wrote:
Kalan wrote:I think a prime Liston wins... If you saw Jimmy Young outbox Foreman, popping him often with the jab... and saw a very old Liston outbox Henry Clark... and a younger but aging Liston outbox Eddie Machen... and saw Liston destroy Floyd Patterson twice... and then if you realize Liston's 1st Ali fight was dead even after 6 rounds with Liston forced to quit because of a badly torn left biceps... and when you realize referee Joe Walcott never gave Liston a count in the Ali rematch, because Ali refused to go to a neutral corner... You can start to see where fate played a big part in Liston's career.. Prime Liston had a very good jab in the mid to late 50's... The jab was Foreman's bugaboo because George slipped and ducked punches very poorly ... So I figure if Liston fought a disciplined fight circa the 1959 version of Liston, and had his best jab going against any version of George, he'd have a good chance.

Besides being in prison for a number of years Liston fought only 1 fight in 1956 and ZERO fights in 1957... In the 3 years leading up to his 1st Ali fight Liston only saw 3 rounds of ring action in 3 complete style mismatches with Westphal and Patterson... basically 1 round a year... When you see those long periods of inactivity and low activity in a boxer's career they often spell trouble.. Liston wasn't the same force in the 1960's as in the 50's.
Could Liston have beaten a bigger,
stronger, smarter version of himself?

That doesn't matter as that's not Foreman.

Kalan · Post by **Kalan** » 13 Jun 2016, 15:59

Cutman Scabbers wrote:
Kalan wrote:I think a prime Liston wins... If you saw Jimmy Young outbox Foreman, popping him often with the jab... and saw a very old Liston outbox Henry Clark... and a younger but aging Liston outbox Eddie Machen... and saw Liston destroy Floyd Patterson twice... and then if you realize Liston's 1st Ali fight was dead even after 6 rounds with Liston forced to quit because of a badly torn left biceps... and when you realize referee Joe Walcott never gave Liston a count in the Ali rematch, because Ali refused to go to a neutral corner... You can start to see where fate played a big part in Liston's career.. Prime Liston had a very good jab in the mid to late 50's... The jab was Foreman's bugaboo because George slipped and ducked punches very poorly ... So I figure if Liston fought a disciplined fight circa the 1959 version of Liston, and had his best jab going against any version of George, he'd have a good chance.

Besides being in prison for a number of years Liston fought only 1 fight in 1956 and ZERO fights in 1957... In the 3 years leading up to his 1st Ali fight Liston only saw 3 rounds of ring action in 3 complete style mismatches with Westphal and Patterson... basically 1 round a year... When you see those long periods of inactivity and low activity in a boxer's career they often spell trouble.. Liston wasn't the same force in the 1960's as in the 50's.

What a fight this would be! If you want to know the answer, the second most important
question is: could Liston have beaten himself? And the answer is... whatever it is. Then
ask yourself the most important question: could Liston have beaten a bigger,
stronger, smarter version of himself?

Foreman and Liston were completely different fighters.. At his best, Liston slipped and ducked under punches well and George never did.. You have to study Liston and his left jab in some of his 1950's fights like Cleveland Williams... Liston was seriously inactive in the 3 years leading up to the Ali fight (only 3 rounds fought in 3 years), and rumors persist that he was at least 10 years older than his proclaimed age.. He certainly looked way older.. Liston had his jab going in the 50's. Jimmy Young and Ali were able to pop their jabs into Foreman's face quite freely.. At his best Liston could jab as well, but his skills dropped massively.. Jimmy Young lost 3 of his next 4 fights after he beat Foreman, and 2 of those losses were to a cruiserweight.. I don't know what Young's problem was exactly, but in Boxing if you're not getting better, you're getting worse.

PredatorHayds · Post by **PredatorHayds** » 14 Jun 2016, 10:53

I'd go for Foreman via mid round stoppage.

For me Foreman always showed more heart than Sonny.
If the going got tough I'd edge George to be mentally stronger.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 14 Jun 2016, 12:22

PredatorHayds wrote:I'd go for Foreman via mid round stoppage.

For me Foreman always showed more heart than Sonny.
If the going got tough I'd edge George to be mentally stronger.

George said Liston was the only guy who ever intimidated him and backed him up.

Tony1244 · Post by **Tony1244** » 14 Jun 2016, 13:06

Very hard to say who would win. I'd tend to favor Foreman.

Liston also had awesome power but he boxed more like, well a boxer. He was like Charles or Holmes but with a lot more power.

The Liston-Machen fight shows this. Liston never really opened up just worked behind that "Lamppost of a jab."

Kalan · Post by **Kalan** » 14 Jun 2016, 16:47

Tony1244 wrote:Liston was like Charles or Holmes but with a lot more power

Couldn't you also say he jabbed like Jimmy Young in his day -- but with more power? ... and wouldn't that favor Liston?

Kalan · Post by **Kalan** » 14 Jun 2016, 16:50

Keeping in mind obviously that Liston was well past his 1950's best when he fought Ali.

Tony1244 · Post by **Tony1244** » 14 Jun 2016, 17:34

Kalan wrote:
Tony1244 wrote:Liston was like Charles or Holmes but with a lot more power
Couldn't you also say he jabbed like Jimmy Young in his day -- but with more power? ... and wouldn't that favor Liston?

Young was a defensive wizard. Almost more like a Mike The Bounty Hunter. Young was only good for about 2-3 years of some strange reason.

Liston may very well have beaten Foreman. I don't know and neither really does anyone else. But I'd favor Foreman because he ripped through everyone in the 1970s unless they had a granite chin, and Liston was great but didn't have a granite chin. Ali for over 10 years was virtually impossible to KO, as was Jimmy Young for about 2 years.

Caractacus · Post by **Caractacus** » 14 Jun 2016, 17:51

George Foreman sparred with Sonny Liston going back to Foreman's amateur days.
They parted ways after Liston loss to Leotis Martin and Foreman stayed on with Dick Sadler.
So what if it was a young professional George Foreman vrs Sonny Liston in 1970?
I do remember reading that Foreman was unable to back up Liston in their sparring sessions.

Kalan · Post by **Kalan** » 14 Jun 2016, 18:07

Tony1244 wrote:
Kalan wrote:
Tony1244 wrote:Liston was like Charles or Holmes but with a lot more power
Couldn't you also say he jabbed like Jimmy Young in his day -- but with more power? ... and wouldn't that favor Liston?

Young was a defensive wizard. Almost more like a Mike The Bounty Hunter. Young was only good for about 2-3 years of some strange reason.

Liston may very well have beaten Foreman. I don't know and neither really does anyone else. But I'd favor Foreman because he ripped through everyone in the 1970s unless they had a granite chin, and Liston was great but didn't have a granite chin. Ali for over 10 years was virtually impossible to KO, as was Jimmy Young for about 2 years.

Ali WASN'T virtually impossible to KO. 185-pound Henry Cooper had Ali knocked out from a not too brutal left hook.. Ali certainly looked bad, and his eyes looked vacant as his butt was bouncing off the ropes on the way the canvas.. The bell rang as he got up so he had a minute to recover.. Dundee even said Ali was in such a bad way he made up a story about slitting Ali's glove and demanding a new pair.. But if you watch the video they were working furiously on Ali between rounds.. Sometimes when a guy is bouncing on the ropes on his way to the canvas he gets hit again.. Ali is lucky that didn't happen ... and he had 22 pounds on Cooper... Foreman was hurt real bad in the Ron Lyle fight.

Prime Heavyweights with the best chins were: Oliver McCall.. Vitali Klitschko.. David Tua.. and Ike Ibeabuchi.. I think Louis Ortiz has a good chin... and Jess Willard as a young man could really absorb a hard punch.. He sure as Hell got hit hard in some of his fights.. A terrific chin is a degrading asset.

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 14 Jun 2016, 18:15

Any 180 pound or heavier man that lands a clean punch on your chin is capable of hurting you.

cfang · Post by **cfang** » 14 Jun 2016, 18:20

That cooper punch was brutal. An incredible and perfect punch from a man with an amazing left hook. Ali was almost impossible to KO because he was never Kod - ever! and he fought the biggest punchers in heavy history - Liston, frazier, foreman and shavers. He was stopped once when a shell of his former self and well on the way to parkinsons.

There was a guy on this forum called El Duce and he was a huge Ali hater too. Used to spend all his time looking for every single less than positive angle and exaggerating it. Before your time though that guy I think. Still, he caused quite the rumpus too. I guess its cos people who love boxing get offended when the some of greatest of boxers are continually having someone attempting to discredit their achievements.

te="Kalan"]

Tony1244 wrote:
Kalan wrote:
Couldn't you also say he jabbed like Jimmy Young in his day -- but with more power? ... and wouldn't that favor Liston?

Young was a defensive wizard. Almost more like a Mike The Bounty Hunter. Young was only good for about 2-3 years of some strange reason.

Liston may very well have beaten Foreman. I don't know and neither really does anyone else. But I'd favor Foreman because he ripped through everyone in the 1970s unless they had a granite chin, and Liston was great but didn't have a granite chin. Ali for over 10 years was virtually impossible to KO, as was Jimmy Young for about 2 years.

Ali WASN'T virtually impossible to KO. 185-pound Henry Cooper had Ali knocked out from a not too brutal left hook.. Ali certainly looked bad, and his eyes looked vacant as his butt was bouncing off the ropes on the way the canvas.. The bell rang as he got up so he had a minute to recover.. Dundee even said Ali was in such a bad way he made up a story about slitting Ali's glove and demanding a new pair.. But if you watch the video they were working furiously on Ali between rounds.. Sometimes when a guy is bouncing on the ropes on his way to the canvas he gets hit again.. Ali is lucky that didn't happen ... and he had 22 pounds on Cooper... Foreman was hurt real bad in the Ron Lyle fight.

Prime Heavyweights with the best chins were: Oliver McCall.. Vitali Klitschko.. David Tua.. and Ike Ibeabuchi.. I think Louis Ortiz has a good chin... and Jess Willard as a young man could really absorb a hard punch.. He sure as Hell got hit hard in some of his fights.. A terrific chin is a degrading asset.[/quote]

Tony1244 · Post by **Tony1244** » 14 Jun 2016, 18:32

cfang wrote:That cooper punch was brutal. An incredible and perfect punch from a man with an amazing left hook. Ali was almost impossible to KO because he was never Kod - ever! and he fought the biggest punchers in heavy history - Liston, frazier, foreman and shavers. He was stopped once when a shell of his former self and well on the way to parkinsons.

There was a guy on this forum called El Duce and he was a huge Ali hater too. Used to spend all his time looking for every single less than positive angle and exaggerating it. Before your time though that guy I think. Still, he caused quite the rumpus too. I guess its cos people who love boxing get offended when the some of greatest of boxers are continually having someone attempting to discredit their achievements.

te="Kalan"]
Tony1244 wrote:
Kalan wrote:
Couldn't you also say he jabbed like Jimmy Young in his day -- but with more power? ... and wouldn't that favor Liston?

Young was a defensive wizard. Almost more like a Mike The Bounty Hunter. Young was only good for about 2-3 years of some strange reason.

Liston may very well have beaten Foreman. I don't know and neither really does anyone else. But I'd favor Foreman because he ripped through everyone in the 1970s unless they had a granite chin, and Liston was great but didn't have a granite chin. Ali for over 10 years was virtually impossible to KO, as was Jimmy Young for about 2 years.
Ali WASN'T virtually impossible to KO. 185-pound Henry Cooper had Ali knocked out from a not too brutal left hook.. Ali certainly looked bad, and his eyes looked vacant as his butt was bouncing off the ropes on the way the canvas.. The bell rang as he got up so he had a minute to recover.. Dundee even said Ali was in such a bad way he made up a story about slitting Ali's glove and demanding a new pair.. But if you watch the video they were working furiously on Ali between rounds.. Sometimes when a guy is bouncing on the ropes on his way to the canvas he gets hit again.. Ali is lucky that didn't happen ... and he had 22 pounds on Cooper... Foreman was hurt real bad in the Ron Lyle fight.

Prime Heavyweights with the best chins were: Oliver McCall.. Vitali Klitschko.. David Tua.. and Ike Ibeabuchi.. I think Louis Ortiz has a good chin... and Jess Willard as a young man could really absorb a hard punch.. He sure as Hell got hit hard in some of his fights.. A terrific chin is a degrading asset.

[/quote]

Cooper landed a great shot but Ali was far from knocked out. Yes he had a what the F expression on his face in the corner. But if you watch it, Dundee asked him to stand up and sit back down again and he did easily. If that punch landed in the middle of the round, I reckon the rest of the round would have looked like Tunney-Dempsey after Dempsey knocked Gene down in the long count. Ali would have been on his bicycle.

You came up with 6 names that had great chins. Ali did too, but had more talent than those you mentioned, even though both Klits were/are very talented. Tex Cobb and Scott LeDoux had great chins too.

abdelfadeeli · Post by **abdelfadeeli** » 14 Jun 2016, 21:32

Tony1244 wrote:
Kalan wrote:
Tony1244 wrote:Liston was like Charles or Holmes but with a lot more power
Couldn't you also say he jabbed like Jimmy Young in his day -- but with more power? ... and wouldn't that favor Liston?

Young was a defensive wizard. Almost more like a Mike The Bounty Hunter. Young was only good for about 2-3 years of some strange reason.

Liston may very well have beaten Foreman. I don't know and neither really does anyone else. But I'd favor Foreman because he ripped through everyone in the 1970s unless they had a granite chin, and Liston was great but didn't have a granite chin. Ali for over 10 years was virtually impossible to KO, as was Jimmy Young for about 2 years.

Yet mysteriously, he was only down once (legitimately) in his career.

abdelfadeeli · Post by **abdelfadeeli** » 14 Jun 2016, 21:34

PredatorHayds wrote:I'd go for Foreman via mid round stoppage.

For me Foreman always showed more heart than Sonny.
If the going got tough I'd edge George to be mentally stronger.

Liston, sure showed that he had quit when he went EIGHT rounds with a broken jaw.

ClivePatrickLyons · Post by **ClivePatrickLyons** » 15 Jun 2016, 00:52

Foreman stops Liston in round 8

Kalan · Post by **Kalan** » 15 Jun 2016, 01:25

Tony1244 wrote: Tex Cobb and Scott LeDoux had great chins too.

Cobb had a strong chin but he was knocked out by a compete novice.. 1st round,. He got ripped.. Scott LeDoux had a terrible chin.. He was knocked out 7 X.

Tony1244 · Post by **Tony1244** » 15 Jun 2016, 08:50

Kalan wrote:
Tony1244 wrote: Tex Cobb and Scott LeDoux had great chins too.
Cobb had a strong chin but he was knocked out by a compete novice.. 1st round,. He got ripped.. Scott LeDoux had a terrible chin.. He was knocked out 7 X.

That fight may have been fixed. I was talking about their primes, not the end of their careers.

Kalan · Post by **Kalan** » 16 Jun 2016, 15:49

LeDoux was prime when Duane Bobick knocked him out... That was the next fight after Ken Norton knocked Bobick out in 58 seconds.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » 16 Jun 2016, 16:18

Old Foreman -(post layoff) beats old Liston-(after Ali defeats.) Young Liston beats young Foreman and I would love to have seen that epic battle.

Kalan · Post by **Kalan** » 16 Jun 2016, 18:28

Good assessment... Meaning prime Liston beats prime Foreman

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