Joe Frazier v. Ken Norton

[Kalan]

Frazier couldn't possibly back Norton up... Joe wasn't big or strong enough... Norton had 4 inches and at least 20 pounds on Frazier once you got the fat off.. Norton beat on Ali more effectively than Frazier did while taking much less punishment... The clumsy and inept Joe Bugner laid more big punches on Joe Frazier than he laid on Marvis Frazier... After Marvis beat Joe Bugner his dad Smokin' was so impressed he said, "Marvis did great with Joe Bugner, a great big Heavyweight. He's ready for Larry Holmes right now." ... Marvis Frazier was 10-0 ... Larry Holmes was 44-0.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Frazier wears down Norton for a late stoppage whilest slightly ahead on point's

[PredatorHayds]

I'd pick Frazier via stoppage.

[Ambling Alp II]

Quarry got to Norton a bit didn't he? It's been a while since I watched it. I just Frazier would've backed Norton up & stopped him. Norton wasn't great when he backed up.

Norton had no more trouble with Quarry than Frazier did. Frazier got backed up by Quarry as well. Both took command and stopped him.

[Ambling Alp II]

That is pretty much how I see it as well. Frazier would probably win, but it would be a tough fight. Keep hearing how Norton could not take it against the top puncher. OK, he got crushed by Foreman. So did almost everyone else, including Frazier.
Frazier was usually a slow starter, who seldom stop anyone early. No reason at all to think he would just walk though Norton.

[Like a Boss]

Frazier's style would be all wrong for Ken. Joe wins by knockout.

Tend to agree with you. As much as Kenny's style frustrated Ali it may well have suited Smokin' Joe.

[Kalan]

Frazier's style would be all wrong for Ken. Joe wins by knockout.

Tend to agree with you. As much as Kenny's style frustrated Ali it may well have suited Smokin' Joe.

How many guys as big and powerful as Norton did Frazier ever beat??? ... Bugner.. Come on Marvis beat him.. Frazier thought Marvis was ready for Holmes.. Frazier thought his other Heavyweight Bobick was ready for Norton.. Same result.. FIRST ROUND KO.. Norton wanted to fight Frazier.. Frazier ducked the fight.

[BoxBuzz]

Frazier's style would be all wrong for Ken. Joe wins by knockout.

Tend to agree with you. As much as Kenny's style frustrated Ali it may well have suited Smokin' Joe.

How many guys as big and powerful as Norton did Frazier ever beat??? ... Bugner.. Come on Marvis beat him.. Frazier thought Marvis was ready for Holmes.. Frazier thought his other Heavyweight Bobick was ready for Norton.. Same result.. FIRST ROUND KO.. Norton wanted to fight Frazier.. Frazier ducked the fight.

Oops, you are now hopelessly trapped in your own quagmire of words.....

Why do I say this?

It is clear that Ali did anywhere from pretty well, to very well against both Kenny and Joe, (depending on your built in biases you have to pick one or the other since he hung in there with both) Seems he was the type of fighter that could pretty well manage either of there styles, and FULLY dominate the style that FULLY DOMINATED them. This has all the trappings of making Ali appear to be a rather masterful ring general. Whereas you have been saying from your arrival, that he really was not.

Integrity of argument appears to be missing here.

Ouch......and....oops.

Need to go back and re-imagine I guess.

[Like a Boss]

Tend to agree with you. As much as Kenny's style frustrated Ali it may well have suited Smokin' Joe.

How many guys as big and powerful as Norton did Frazier ever beat??? ... Bugner.. Come on Marvis beat him.. Frazier thought Marvis was ready for Holmes.. Frazier thought his other Heavyweight Bobick was ready for Norton.. Same result.. FIRST ROUND KO.. Norton wanted to fight Frazier.. Frazier ducked the fight.

Oops, you are now hopelessly trapped in your own quagmire of words.....

Why do I say this?

It is clear that Ali did anywhere from pretty well, to very well against both Kenny and Joe, (depending on your built in biases you have to pick one or the other since he hung in there with both) Seems he was the type of fighter that could pretty well manage either of there styles, and FULLY dominate the style that FULLY DOMINATED them. This has all the trappings of making Ali appear to be a rather masterful ring general. Whereas you have been saying from your arrival, that he really was not.

Integrity of argument appears to be missing here.

Ouch......and....oops.

Need to go back and re-imagine I guess.

[Kalan]

It is clear that Ali did anywhere from pretty well, to very well against both Kenny and Joe

It IS NOT CLEAR to anyone but YOU!!!! and other blind people such as there may be.. That's the FIRST time I ever heard that Ali did well to VERY well against Norton... Ali beat the crap out of Frazier in their 1st and their 3rd fight... He grabbed and held all night and didn't allow Smokin' to do crap in the boring assed rematch...and he stopped Joe in the rubber match... So I'd say he did very well beating up Frazier.

Norton shattered Ali's jaw in their first fight and beat the crap out of him. Norton dominated the fight and if you don't think so you're nuts.. Norton landed better and harder punches in the rematch.. somehow he lost the decision.. Ali's friend and right hand man Bundini Brown walked over to Norton after the rematch and said "You won the fight Norton. They robbed you." This was caught on TV.. The TV people even talked to Norton and said, "Ali's friend Bundini Brown just said you won the fight." Norton smiled wryly and agreed with the assessment. Most think Norton was a clear winner of the 3rd fight.. Norton barely had a mark on him after all 3 encounters. Frazier looked like a Halloween mask after 2 of them.

[Crease]

Norton wanted to fight Frazier.. Frazier ducked the fight.

Have you got conclusive proof of this or are you just attempting to put your opinion forward as a fact?

The facts as I see them are; Frazier & Norton were stable-mates under Eddie Futch. It would have been highly irregular for a stable to pair up their two best Heavyweights, especially when there were so many selling fights out there for both of them (Ali, Foreman etc...)

And I would definitely resist calling any man who faces the wrath of George Foreman twice "a coward" or that he's afraid to face anybody.

[Controversial]

Norton wanted to fight Frazier.. Frazier ducked the fight.

Have you got conclusive proof of this or are you just attempting to put your opinion forward as a fact?

The facts as I see them are; Frazier & Norton were stable-mates under Eddie Futch. It would have been highly irregular for a stable to pair up their two best Heavyweights, especially when there were so many selling fights out there for both of them (Ali, Foreman etc...)

And I would definitely resist calling any man who faces the wrath of George Foreman twice "a coward" or that he's afraid to face anybody.

When he was champ Frazier always said he wouldn't fight Norton as they were very good friends, he went so far to say he would retire rather than fight him. After he lost the title he changed his mind and said he would fight him. Apparently Norton was pulled out of sparring Frazier in Jamaica (Frazier was training for Foreman fight) because he was getting the better of him.

[Crease]

When he was champ Frazier always said he wouldn't fight Norton as they were very good friends, he went so far to say he would retire rather than fight him. After he lost the title he changed his mind and said he would fight him. Apparently Norton was pulled out of sparring Frazier in Jamaica (Frazier was training for Foreman fight) because he was getting the better of him.

Check this link out: (http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=85947)

Reportedly, eye witnesses said that Frazier used to murder Norton in sparring.

[Controversial]

When he was champ Frazier always said he wouldn't fight Norton as they were very good friends, he went so far to say he would retire rather than fight him. After he lost the title he changed his mind and said he would fight him. Apparently Norton was pulled out of sparring Frazier in Jamaica (Frazier was training for Foreman fight) because he was getting the better of him.

Check this link out: (http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=85947)

Reportedly, eye witnesses said that Frazier used to murder Norton in sparring.

Yeah I'm sure he did but not in Jamaica by all accounts. He "cuffed" Frazier around the ring was the word used and spent the rest of his time with the ladies around the pool.

[Ambling Alp II]

Always love the tales from the gym stories. One guy always wipes the floor with the other guy. It's never that two guys fought on relatively even terms without anything particularly interesting happening.

[SNG]

Always love the tales from the gym stories. One guy always wipes the floor with the other guy. It's never that two guys fought on relatively even terms without anything particularly interesting happening.

That's probably the norm, and a rather boring story.

[Ambling Alp II]

Always love the tales from the gym stories. One guy always wipes the floor with the other guy. It's never that two guys fought on relatively even terms without anything particularly interesting happening.

[Caractacus]

Is there any video of Frazier and Norton sparring ?
I remember seeing some video of Norton sparring with Ron Lyle
when the TV show 60 minutes brought Lyle up to Frazier's camp in the Catskills
just before the Fight of the Century.
Frazier refused to spar with Lyle because he said Lyle was still an amateur.

[Kalan]

{Norton] "cuffed" Frazier around the ring ... when the TV show 60 minutes brought Lyle up to Frazier's camp in the Catskills
just before the Fight of the Century. Frazier refused to spar with Lyle because he said Lyle was still an amateur.

Frazier hated to fight big powerful guys... Norton was green when they started sparring so Frazier beat him up. Norton kept getting bigger, stronger, and better. Norton could never have beaten a puncher like Foreman, but he got up on Frazier. Frazier didn't want to spar Lyle because he was bigger, taller, stronger, and tougher. Frazier wasn't a tech. He beat guys down with power, toughness, and strength. It wasn't going to work with guys like Foreman or Lyle... or a more mature version of Ken Norton.

Frazier was convinced his Heavyweight Duane Bobick would beat Norton, and Eddie Futch thought so too. That always baffled the Hell out of me. That and Joe Frazier matching his kid Marvis, who was 10-0 against Larry Holmes, 44-0. Bill Slayton said, "WTF are those guys doing???"

[Bricks]

Hell joe frazier is all wrong for kenny nortons.

He was just too much a mess of a fighter a whole swirl of powerful left hooks and pressure and slipping kennys ponderous early rounds work.kenny didnt have the strength to push a frazier back.hell ali only briefly managed it in the 2nd round of the 2nd fight and foreman was far far stronger.

I love kenny norton hes in my top 15 of all time hw"s id fancy him to do the job with tyson but not joe fraziers

[BoxBuzz]

It is clear that Ali did anywhere from pretty well, to very well against both Kenny and Joe

It IS NOT CLEAR to anyone but YOU!!!! and other blind people such as there may be.. That's the FIRST time I ever heard that Ali did well to VERY well against Norton... Ali beat the crap out of Frazier in their 1st and their 3rd fight... He grabbed and held all night and didn't allow Smokin' to do crap in the boring assed rematch...and he stopped Joe in the rubber match... So I'd say he did very well beating up Frazier.

Norton shattered Ali's jaw in their first fight and beat the crap out of him. Norton dominated the fight and if you don't think so you're nuts.. Norton landed better and harder punches in the rematch.. somehow he lost the decision.. Ali's friend and right hand man Bundini Brown walked over to Norton after the rematch and said "You won the fight Norton. They robbed you." This was caught on TV.. The TV people even talked to Norton and said, "Ali's friend Bundini Brown just said you won the fight." Norton smiled wryly and agreed with the assessment. Most think Norton was a clear winner of the 3rd fight.. Norton barely had a mark on him after all 3 encounters. Frazier looked like a Halloween mask after 2 of them.

Well, the Ali-Norton fights were competitive, and once you get some good thick glasses and take another look, you'll be better informed.

According to Ali, Norton broke Ali's Jaw early on in that first fight, you know it, I know it and Bob Dole knows it. So Ali did pretty well when you factor that in.

A fight that he lost, but gave a very good accounting of himself.

And of course he won the other two according to the judges and referee. I know I know, they were close and a lot of people think Kenny won them both.

The fights were competitive, neither were runaway beatings, except in your over active imagination.

Now you just go watch yourself some fight films, read some good boxing books, and never ever stop learning about this sport that obviously excites you.

I know and trust, that sooner or later, after you've taken the time to carefully peruse some top notch boxing reference information, you are going to drop back in on us someday. And I have

a hunch that you will eventually contribute informed opinions, (on this very forum), that will be outstandingly credibull, viabull, dependabull, decipherabull, and plausibull.

But in these debut weeks, we seem to be witnessing basic-bull, with a generous side of bulloney.

[Kalan]

Well, the Ali-Norton fights were competitive, and once you get some good thick glasses and take another look, you'll be better informed

YOU not only need Lasik surgery on both eyes BoxBuzz.. but may you need a brain transplant.. Ali was a 10:1 favorite and expected to DESTROY Norton... NOT get the crap beat out of him... get his jaw busted and wired shut for months... by a head first no-skills swinger, no less... because Norton previously got hammered around the ring by a skinny neophyte... YES, Norton was knocked onto his right ear and ICED -- by a skinny 188-pound novice with 12 wins named Jose Luis Garcia... That's why Ali selected Norton as an opponent you see, because he was a wide open target.. Foreman DID very well with Norton because he was EXPECTED to smash Norton quickly ... and he DID!!!

And let's look at this another way... Martin Murray was 29-1-1 - and In his 2 previous Middleweight Title shots before GGG, most people thought Murry won his "draw" with Felix Sturm and Germany and his sole previous loss to Sergio Martinez in Argentina, where he scored 2 knockdowns but somehow lost the decision... Now If Murray won 3 or 4 rounds off Golovkin, or God forbid he went the distance, then Golovkin would had been blasted as a massive hype job... In fact GGG scored the only 3 knockdowns Murray ever suffered, won 10 of 11 rounds, and stopped Murray for the 1st time in his career and some people still said THAT fight proved he's a hype job... You can't please haters.

But Ali's showing against Norton??? A chinny head-first swinger who gets blown out??? Come ON be serious Buzz!!!! That defeat was SHOCKING!!!

[hhaehre]

Frazier couldn't possibly back Norton up... Joe wasn't big or strong enough... Norton had 4 inches and at least 20 pounds on Frazier once you got the fat off.. Norton beat on Ali more effectively than Frazier did while taking much less punishment... The clumsy and inept Joe Bugner laid more big punches on Joe Frazier than he laid on Marvis Frazier... After Marvis beat Joe Bugner his dad Smokin' was so impressed he said, "Marvis did great with Joe Bugner, a great big Heavyweight. He's ready for Larry Holmes right now." ... Marvis Frazier was 10-0 ... Larry Holmes was 44-0.

Do you feel it's relevant to compare the young prime Bugner of the Joe Frazier fight with the fat out of shape Bugner 10 years later? Also, how is Joe's view on his sons chances against Holmes in any way relevant to whether Joe would beat Norton?
If you work real hard at it I'm sure you can somehow factor Ali's loss to Berbick and Frazier's draw with Cummings into your argument.

[Kalan]

Bugner was more inept at 23 than he was at 33, when he fought Marvis... And Bugner was younger than Larry Holmes who Marvis fought next.

[hhaehre]

Bugner was more inept at 23 than he was at 33, when he fought Marvis... And Bugner was younger than Larry Holmes who Marvis fought next.

Are you seriously suggesting that Bugner was better vs. Marvis than he was against Joe? Bugner had been a pro for almost 6 years and had close to 50 fights when he faced Joe, including bouts vs Ali, Cooper, Middleton and Blin. So yeah he was real inept, a novice really. The 3 year retirement, the extra 10 years and 16 lbs of fat really made him great against Marvis.