Edwin Valero vs Henry Armstrong

[BoxBuzz]

Look Kalan, I'm open minded, seriously I am. But your not even on the same page with the trainers you admire.

You like checkin' records...so do I. Just have a gander at some trainers opinions on some of your most unusual opinions.


You really don't get consensus from them on many of your assertions.

I'm not pickin' an argument, as much as I'm just making an observation here.

You oddly seem to equate (in many of your examples) that getting inside someones power equates to just putting your head out on a guillotine to be taken off.

[Kalan]

Getting inside somebody's power by illegally butting, shoving, and leveraging with your head??? Is that scientific boxing technique???

That WOULDN'T have worked for Armstrong if he ever faced a puncher. He gave up every round to Robinson because he wanted to survive. Armstrong couldn't box and looked horrible vs Robinson. I see they conveniently deleted that fight from YouTube because he looked so bad. Leading with your head didn't help Frazier and Norton against Foreman. How good did they look??? ... The technique helped them when they fought light hitting boxers like Ali and Young. You can't lead with your head against a big puncher ... and I'm not disagreeing with ANY knowledgeable trainer when I say that. They all know that... As for your guillotine analogy??? It's pretty close to that except it's slower and more painful.

And I repeat.... "It's impossible to discuss Boxing at a high intellectual level if YOU won't study records, study video, think in terms of Boxing Styles and Dynamics, or try to get your brain around the facts that information supplies you with - to come up with objective conclusions. Instead you rely on myth, majority public opinion, and "expert" historians who have never boxed or trained boxers in their lives, but use a pompous pseudo-intellectual approach and ridiculous pretense to assume a knowledgeable façade. They never lay a dollar on a fight because eventually they’d get their asses busted.

You could start by actually WATCHING videos on Henry Armstrong to see whether or NOT he actually boxed masterfully and cleverly – or if he led with his head, and used it illegally to butt, shove, and leverage his opponents into a position where he could punch them as I claim, and realize he fought 30 fights he DIDN’T win. And also watch Edwin Valero’s available fights and try to get a fair grasp of his speed, power, and boxing ability... Because this is what this discussion should be all about – your independent thoughts and any unique insights YOU might have – and not whose position is the most popular and who’s presenting the alternative viewpoint"

[BoxBuzz]

Fair enough, I'll watch even more boxing films and get back to you on that.

Sadly Rosenbloom and Greb can never be assessed in that manner. Rosenbloom somehow ended up on my favorites list purely by the mythology.

[Kalan]

Fair enough, I'll watch even more boxing films and get back to you on that

Like HELL you will... And I'll tell you why you probably won't really give it an objective study. Because if anybody who understands Boxing truly studied Henry Armstrong's habit of leading with his head and butting, pushing, and leveraging with his head... and examined some of the fights he lost and why he lost them... Then looked at the available footage of Valero fights to get an idea if his skill, range, speed, and power, are better than Armstrong's, they might come away with a totally different perspective. But people HATE to challenge their own thinking. That might make them wrong and somebody else right. They just want to stick with conventional wisdom because it seems so safe.

[Like a Boss]

Armstrong has only 93% of the vote. But it is early days yet.

[Kalan]

Armstrong has only 93% of the vote. But it is early days yet.

None of them have studied the videos.. And that's a much lower percentage than thought Buster Douglas would beat Mike Tyson - and roughly the same percent of bettors who thought Whyte would beat Joshua... Of course the really super HUGE (smart) bets were on Joshua... The smart money often comes in major sums... Malik Scott and Deontay Wilder also predicted Whyte would beat Joshua... Now you'd figure they would know better. The fact that they were picking Whyte blew me away.

[Kalan]

Rather that's a much lower percentage than thought Mike Tyson would beat Buster Douglas

[Like a Boss]

Armstrong has only 93% of the vote. But it is early days yet.

None of them have studied the videos...

I'd say that's about 93% assumption on your part.

[Kalan]

And a much lower percentage than thought Buster Douglas would beat Mike Tyson than think Valero would beat Armstrong.

[Kalan]

The bottom line is check out both Armstrong's videos and Valero's videos... Only one of them led with his head and constantly pushed, butted, and levered with his head to get openings... Valero didn't have to do that because he could box and punch.

[Ketchel]

"That WOULDN'T have worked for Armstrong if he ever faced a puncher. He gave up every round to Robinson because he wanted to survive. Armstrong couldn't box and looked horrible vs. Robinson. I see they conveniently deleted that fight from YouTube because he looked so bad."

Robinson in his biography admitted carrying Armstrong in this fight as Henry had been his idol. Robinson wanted him to survive as much as Henry wanted to survive. He knew that this version of Armstrong was shot and not the force he had been.

I doubt the fight was ever on YouTube either for Armstrong fans to delete off. Interesting though to hear that in 181 fights that Armstrong did not fight a single guy who could punch compared to the murderers row that Valero had to go through. Even with his in your view primitive leading with the head style, Armstrong was only stopped once in the subsequent 180 fights he had after his pro debut. So his chin must have been study enough. Valero was not an inside fighter and if he had of fought Armstrong then Henry would have got to the inside and then it would have been game over. If Mosquera was putting Valero down then Armstrong would be putting him out also.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nobody would have ever heard of Valero if he fought in hanks era. He would be getting schooled by the liked of Rance's if he was around now. He could punch, that's it, slow, poor footwork, atrocious defense and no heart.

[The End]

Nobody would have ever heard of Valero if he fought in hanks era. He would be getting schooled by the liked of Rance's if he was around now. He could punch, that's it, slow, poor footwork, atrocious defense and no heart.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you and damn sure not saying Valero stood a chance but how'd you figure he had no heart ?

[Like a Boss]

The no heart comment surprised me as well.

[Kalan]

Even with his in your view primitive leading with the head style, Armstrong was only stopped once in the subsequent 180 fights he had after his pro debut. So his chin must have been study enough. Valero was not an inside fighter and if he had of fought Armstrong then Henry would have got to the inside and then it would have been game over

So with his KO ratio of 56% against the worst cherry-picks of his day... Bare in mind Armstrong fought a guy 0-2 in the 96th fight.. a guy with 5 fights in the 65th fight.. When Armstrong had 28 fights like Valero, he had only 20 wins and 9 KO's, versus 28 wins and 28 KO's for Valero... For his 29th fight Armstrong fought a guy with a record of 0-0-1... I didn't see a SINGLE dangerous puncher who Armstrong ever fought was close to having 28 KO wins in 28 fights, with 8 World Title Fights - or anything close to that... Armstrong's team was cherry-picking all the way and it's game over for Valero.. That's a joke.. Joe Frazier was never stopped until he fought a powerful puncher.. He led with his head too.. got knocked down 6 times in 2 rounds and was got murdered.. Armstrong never met a great puncher because he fought mostly cherries.

[Kalan]

Should read.. "Joe Frazier was never stopped until he fought a powerful puncher.. He led with his head too.. got knocked down 6 times in 2 rounds and got murdered"

[Kalan]

The no heart comment surprised me as well.

Valero had a big heart... That's just ignorant people hating

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nobody would have ever heard of Valero if he fought in hanks era. He would be getting schooled by the liked of Rance's if he was around now. He could punch, that's it, slow, poor footwork, atrocious defense and no heart.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you and damn sure not saying Valero stood a chance but how'd you figure he had no heart ?

He quit life.

[BoxBuzz]

The no heart comment surprised me as well.

Valero had a big heart... That's just ignorant people hating

Valero did have a certain type of courage, no doubt....on the line of Monzon. Flawed though.

[BoxBuzz]

Kalan......

I think you will be the first to admit that......

You are just very very very very very smart.

And OTHERS, just very very very very AREN'T.




And someday when your typed words which will last through eternity, (as all internet contributions do) you will be honored for your very co-rectal and ass toot observations.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The no heart comment surprised me as well.

Valero had a big heart... That's just ignorant people hating

Valero did have a certain type of courage, no doubt....on the line of Monzon. Flawed though.

The only thing he had comparable to monzon was a cold heart.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

When a man quits his existence how can you trust him in the ring? Sure he managed to survive the onslaught of the feather fisted mosquera, but that just shows how weak his chin and spirit was.

[BoxBuzz]

When a man quits his existence how can you trust him in the ring? Sure he managed to survive the onslaught of the feather fisted mosquera, but that just shows how weak his chin and spirit was.

I agree, that was the "kinda sorta" comparison I was making as well.

I like commenting on Kalan's contributions, but I'll probably wind down now. I'm just making him angry with me, and I really can't continue to believe he's fully engaged in some of these topics.
I'm not sure he's trolling, but he's not weaving his thoughts very cohesively in my opinion. And believe me, I know non cohesive when I see it. I invented it.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Mosquera barely beat Jose Miranda(9-10-3) and never had him hurt but he had Valero floundering all over the ring. Anybody that watches the mosquera/Miranda fight can clearly see Valero had a China chin. He tattooed the limited demarco for nine rounds without hurting him, Valero said in his corner.."my hands hurt, he's too tough and my vagina is throbbing. His trainer responded, do it for kalan. Demarco retired the next round citing the aura of kalan as indestructible. He later starred in 4th grade Mexican intermural basketball where wilt Chamberlain spotted his athleticism and told him he should be a boxer.thats when Antonio made a not quite triumphant return to the ring.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He's a complete troll, lancenex was his previous name. Not a big deal, but it definitely drops the board iq.