MUHAMMAD ALI/CASSIUS CLAY - Facts, Fantasy & Fiction

[Brute]

why is that? Ali did dodge the draft.

Never mind that he had previously been granted conscientious objector status.
Never mind that he knew he would never leave the USA, would be a drill instructor and still be able to defend his title.
Never mind that Loony Lyndon only wanted him in the army to attract young blacks to fight in somebody else's civil war.
Never mind that his conviction was overturned unanimously by the US Supreme Court.

[observer1]

why is that? Ali did dodge the draft.

Never mind that he had previously been granted conscientious objector status.
Never mind that he knew he would never leave the USA, would be a drill instructor and still be able to defend his title.
Never mind that Loony Lyndon only wanted him in the army to attract young blacks to fight in somebody else's civil war.
Never mind that his conviction was overturned unanimously by the US Supreme Court.

Fact: The US Government wanted more black youth to join the army voluntarily, and not just be conscripted.

The US Government promised Ali he would never have to pick up a gun, all he was going to be was a representative.

So no he never dodged the draft. He dodged the fact he would be nothing but a tool and a puppet.

Kudos to Ali.

[Zelley]

So it has all come down to Ali's non-boxing dodging and a ducking
and who is right and wrong. At this point, it is hard to discuss the "refusal to serve"
issue, because we will never know why he chose to do what he did. The only thing that it
did do is take a few years of his boxing. After 1967, he was never the same.
If he would of been fighting in 1968 and 1969, he would likely have been the champion
longer that he was. the period between his victory over Foreman, who was defeated before the bout started, and his last bout with Trevor B. was clouded with controversy and one
could see the erosion of skills year-by-year.

In many polls, MUHAMMAD ALI often rates one or two among the heavyweights.
Of course, what Muhammad Ali are the voters using when they judge. If it was the
Ali of 1964 to 1967, he had the speed and movement but would that be enough to keep the likes of Louis, Marciano, Frazier, Dempsey, and Tyson from stalking him and knocking him out or out slick the likes of Johnson, Tunney and Corbett.

If we were talking about the Seventies, could-he rope-a-dope a MAX BAER or JAMES J. JEFFRIES or a LENNOX LEWIS without catching a big right hand to the body and head that would leave him heading for a ten count.

If we were talking about the Seventies, then his best defensive skill of rope-a-dope would
be dangerous ground against the likes of LOUIS, MARCIANO and DEMPSEY. IF JOE FRAZIER could knock him down, if KEN NORTON could break his jaw, and if LEON SPINKS
could beat him big time, then the Ali of those fights would be in trouble from any of the top level heavyweight champions of all time. Personality and popularity are skills that cannot or should not be used to judge the best ever or the pound-for-pound top ten.

[ThatOne]

So it has all come down to Ali's non-boxing dodging and a ducking
and who is right and wrong. At this point, it is hard to discuss the "refusal to serve"
issue, because we will never know why he chose to do what he did. The only thing that it
did do is take a few years of his boxing. After 1967, he was never the same.
If he would of been fighting in 1968 and 1969, he would likely have been the champion
longer that he was. the period between his victory over Foreman, who was defeated before the bout started, and his last bout with Trevor B. was clouded with controversy and one
could see the erosion of skills year-by-year.

In many polls, MUHAMMAD ALI often rates one or two among the heavyweights.
Of course, what Muhammad Ali are the voters using when they judge. If it was the
Ali of 1964 to 1967, he had the speed and movement but would that be enough to keep the likes of Louis, Marciano, Frazier, Dempsey, and Tyson from stalking him and knocking him out or out slick the likes of Johnson, Tunney and Corbett.

If we were talking about the Seventies, could-he rope-a-dope a MAX BAER or JAMES J. JEFFRIES or a LENNOX LEWIS without catching a big right hand to the body and head that would leave him heading for a ten count.

If we were talking about the Seventies, then his best defensive skill of rope-a-dope would
be dangerous ground against the likes of LOUIS, MARCIANO and DEMPSEY. IF JOE FRAZIER could knock him down, if KEN NORTON could break his jaw, and if LEON SPINKS
could beat him big time, then the Ali of those fights would be in trouble from any of the top level heavyweight champions of all time. Personality and popularity are skills that cannot or should not be used to judge the best ever or the pound-for-pound top ten.

The seventies were a long decade. He went from being a relatively young man in ring years to a relatively old man in ring years. I don't think it's hyperbole to say Muhammad Ali had the tools to be at least even money against any heavyweight who ever lived.

[Zelley]

THE BEGINNING OF THE END - June 1977
ALI vs EVANGELISTA

sometime the results in the record book does not tell the real story.
Such was the case of the June 16, 1977 bout of MUHAMMAD ALI
vs ALFREDO EVANGELISTA.

It shows another Ali victory before dropping the title to Leon Spinks.
But, it may have been the writing on the wall or the beginning of
the last chapter in the Cassius Marcellus Clay's amazing boxing
saga.
:> :?? :?? Flashback to "WORLD BOXING' magazine i September 1977
and the issue reporting on the Ali vs Evangelista bout did not even have Ali's
much exposed face on the cover instead that pleasure went to KEN NORTON.
However, there was a story titled THE GREATNESS IS GONE; by Dan Shocket.

Dan did not pull his punches in describing Ali,
"the fight was boring, sluggish and tepid.,,Ali comes off as his detractors
always claimed he appeared has a boorish fool covering up for lack of ability."

"the legend of Muhammad Ali is now in it last chapter which may not include a happy ending" - D. Shocket, 1977. :idea: :>

So, where are we in this look at the Facts, Fantasy and Fiction.
In any modern poll in 2010 or 2011 and likely in 2012, Muhammad Ali will likely be in the top three of all time heavyweight champion. Often, articles about Ali refer to him has the Greatet Boxer Of All Time, but that is likely pure FANTASY, but some folks voting on polls
will believe what has been peddled and pitched ssince the early sixties THE GREATEST.
Ali was the one who promoted the GREATEST tag, but based on all of the FACTS, FANTASY and FICTION. will clear thinking boxing fans of 2020 have the vision to
see the real story and judge his place among the heavyweights or will they have their thoughts clouded by the hype, the fantasy and the promotion. :idea: :?? :?? :??

[SolomonDeedes]

I would think that most boxing fans in 2020 will see a man who became world heavyweight champion at 22 and retired, champion again, at 37, and who during that 15 year span defeated an exceptional list of opponents including Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Ernie Terrell, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young and Earnie Shavers.

Then again, there'll always be some who'll claim that he was a mediocrity, based on the observation that when he was old and slow he didn't always look that great.

[granberry]

...It had to have made Ali remember when he was champ in the 1960's and he stood up to the draft...

Man, I wish Paddy Terap was allowed to post; he'd have gone crazy over that statement. Abso-fekkin-lutely beserk he would have gone.

I am allowed to post, fairy-boy.

I don't choose to as long as you and your enabler, buz, stink up this website.

A piece of low mentality filth like you and clueless buz are the poster boys for this messed up site.

[Collins2000]

...It had to have made Ali remember when he was champ in the 1960's and he stood up to the draft...

Man, I wish Paddy Terap was allowed to post; he'd have gone crazy over that statement. Abso-fekkin-lutely beserk he would have gone.

I am allowed to post, fairy-boy.

I don't choose to as long as you and your enabler, buz, stink up this website.

A piece of low mentality filth like you and clueless buz are the poster boys for this messed up site.

There's some newbies arrived since you left, pops, so you got a whole new audience for your couple of tricks.

[ThatOne]

...It had to have made Ali remember when he was champ in the 1960's and he stood up to the draft...

Man, I wish Paddy Terap was allowed to post; he'd have gone crazy over that statement. Abso-fekkin-lutely beserk he would have gone.

I am allowed to post, fairy-boy.

I don't choose to as long as you and your enabler, buz, stink up this website.

A piece of low mentality filth like you and clueless buz are the poster boys for this messed up site.

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[scallum]

It's a bit much for a man who's enjoyed the many wonderful freedoms of being an American citizen (yes, even a black citizen, circa-1960's) & who calls one country, "home" to say he won't fight for it.

Don't want to fight? Choose another country. Oh, no, America is where he makes his money. Land of opportunity. Don't want to fight for the Government, but sure don't mind the system of capitalism it founded which has made me a rich sportsman & permitted me to pursue my dreams as a fighter, do I?

Please.

Ali and his peoples during 60s could be considered second class citizens at best. Imagine what he had to watch his mom and dad go thru while he was a kid in the south? Would U feel part of a country that treated ur people so harsly for no reason? I was in My U.S. Navy Uniform in 1985 in south and was told my kind could not get service at a certain establishment. Cn U imagine how my kind was treated in 1960s in south

[Giancarlo]

It's a bit much for a man who's enjoyed the many wonderful freedoms of being an American citizen (yes, even a black citizen, circa-1960's) & who calls one country, "home" to say he won't fight for it.

Don't want to fight? Choose another country. Oh, no, America is where he makes his money. Land of opportunity. Don't want to fight for the Government, but sure don't mind the system of capitalism it founded which has made me a rich sportsman & permitted me to pursue my dreams as a fighter, do I?

Please.

Ali and his peoples during 60s could be considered second class citizens at best. Imagine what he had to watch his mom and dad go thru while he was a kid in the south? Would U feel part of a country that treated ur people so harsly for no reason? I was in My U.S. Navy Uniform in 1985 in south and was told my kind could not get service at a certain establishment. Cn U imagine how my kind was treated in 1960s in south

Don't take any notice of Irene, she doesn't get out much. Too much Judge Judy and Days of our Lives has rotted her brain to the point of no return.

[Zelley]

Did You know?ALI was a fan of WILLIE PASTRANO?
Did you know that when young Cassius was young, before winning the title he went and knocked of the door of Willie Pastrano?

[mrbassie]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4418913071

Some food for thought.

[Zelley]

The issue of Muhammad Ali has come up again in another heavyweight poll and a discussion topic ALI vs LOUIS

[Zelley]

I guess now is a good time to revisit this ropic and how much credit should Joe Martin get for the boxer Ali/Clay.

[Zelley]

On Saturday, I was interviewed by CTV Vancouver Island and appeared on the 6:00o'clock news.

[SteveO]

[quote="jjust this, one more time: ali did NOT dodge the draft. he used his legal right as a concientious (sp?) objector. He was illegaly stripped of his titlle and his right to fight. the government stole his passport so he couldn't fight out of the united states. he sued for these rights to be given back to him and eventually the courts decided in his favor. by that time he lost three of his prime physical years. [/quote]


This is the truth

[Kalan]

Of all the boxers that fought in their prime in the Sixties, Emile Griffith is often considered the best. But, for pure skill and performance boxer Eder Jofre is hard to beat. :?? :idea:

Jofre in the 60's.... Monzon in the 70's... and Sanchez in the 80's were Boxing's greatest fighters... Never stopped -- Never embarrassed

[elmersalsa]

Of all the boxers that fought in their prime in the Sixties, Emile Griffith is often considered the best. But, for pure skill and performance boxer Eder Jofre is hard to beat. :?? :idea:

Jofre in the 60's.... Monzon in the 70's... and Sanchez in the 80's were Boxing's greatest fighters... Never stopped -- Never embarrassed

In the 60's was Ali. In the 70's, it was Duran.

[Zelley]

I was on CTV Vancouver Island to chat about Ali on Saturday.

[Kalan]

Of all the boxers that fought in their prime in the Sixties, Emile Griffith is often considered the best. But, for pure skill and performance boxer Eder Jofre is hard to beat. :?? :idea:

Jofre in the 60's.... Monzon in the 70's... and Sanchez in the 80's were Boxing's greatest fighters... Never stopped -- Never embarrassed

In the 60's was Ali. In the 70's, it was Duran.

Both were stopped and embarrassed quite badly.. NO MAS.. and Broken Jaw.. and Quitting.. That never happened to Eder, Carlos, or Sal.

[BoxBuzz]

Of all the boxers that fought in their prime in the Sixties, Emile Griffith is often considered the best. But, for pure skill and performance boxer Eder Jofre is hard to beat. :?? :idea:

Jofre in the 60's.... Monzon in the 70's... and Sanchez in the 80's were Boxing's greatest fighters... Never stopped -- Never embarrassed

Kalan, why in the world do you and I agree on Monzon? In this case we seem to be viewing the same films.

[Kalan]

It's your ounce of common sense surfacing every 8 days.

[BoxBuzz]

So to be rather brilliant, all I have to do is agree with you?

Then I know just what to do have a feel good day.

I'm going to dig up an old Monzon thread, and bask in my intellectual prowess!