i am at loss of words.Kalan wrote:Mike was an inch taller. HIs hands were faster on a straight power shot and retraction. They blasted in there faster than Sugar Ray's. .... You can't say the man who lands the most and best punches is the fastest.
man wrote:i am at loss of words.Kalan wrote:Mike was an inch taller. HIs hands were faster on a straight power shot and retraction. They blasted in there faster than Sugar Ray's. .... You can't say the man who lands the most and best punches is the fastest.
do well, sir.
What you're doing is taking things out of context, not thinking cohesively, and not using abductive, inductive and deductive reasoning skills. You're not understanding the science of Boxing demands many different attributes in combination to outscore a very good boxer -- and speed is only one of them.Kalan wrote: You have to read the full message... "Mike was an inch taller. HIs hands were faster on a straight power shot and retraction. They blasted in there faster than Sugar Ray's. Leonard was more skilled, slicker, smarter, and more calculated in his approach. Leonard had better intuition and anticipated the opening better than Iron Mike. He was a better chess player. Therefore Leonard would set-up a fraction ahead of Tyson at his best. You can't say the man who lands the most and best punches is the fastest. He's the best boxer. Timing beats speed."
Then you have to have a deep appreciation of other attributes besides timing that can allow you to outbox and outpunch somebody...
"Now you might say "Douglas and Lewis were faster than Tyson because they beat him to the punch every step of the way." Well..the same thing happened of Ray Leonard to a lesser degree when he fought Duran the first time -- and to a greater extent when he fought Terry Norris. Duran wasn't faster. He was a lot smaller and shorter. He had more boxing experience. Duran was better prepared mentally and physically for THAT particular fight. Terry Norris was a fraction faster than Leonard I believe, but the thing that enabled Norris to beat up Leonard so easily is he was more confident in his preparation, balance, distance, and skills. Norris knew Leonard was inactive. He knew SRL was fighting cherry picks and washed up fighters. He also knew Leonard thought he was chinny. Norris boxed to his best capabilities and Leonard couldn't get near his chin. A bad chin is only a liability if your opponent can hit it -- as Tyson found out with Douglas -- you need to land a good shot even on a chinless guy."
SRL was also more consistent with his boxing career than Tyson. He didn't deviate into alternative life styles and women by the dozen as often"
Kalan wrote:What you're doing is taking things out of context, not thinking cohesively, and not using abductive, inductive and deductive reasoning skills. You're not understanding the science of Boxing demands many different attributes in combination to outscore a very good boxer -- and speed is only one of them.Kalan wrote: You have to read the full message... "Mike was an inch taller. HIs hands were faster on a straight power shot and retraction. They blasted in there faster than Sugar Ray's. Leonard was more skilled, slicker, smarter, and more calculated in his approach. Leonard had better intuition and anticipated the opening better than Iron Mike. He was a better chess player. Therefore Leonard would set-up a fraction ahead of Tyson at his best. You can't say the man who lands the most and best punches is the fastest. He's the best boxer. Timing beats speed."
Then you have to have a deep appreciation of other attributes besides timing that can allow you to outbox and outpunch somebody...
"Now you might say "Douglas and Lewis were faster than Tyson because they beat him to the punch every step of the way." Well..the same thing happened of Ray Leonard to a lesser degree when he fought Duran the first time -- and to a greater extent when he fought Terry Norris. Duran wasn't faster. He was a lot smaller and shorter. He had more boxing experience. Duran was better prepared mentally and physically for THAT particular fight. Terry Norris was a fraction faster than Leonard I believe, but the thing that enabled Norris to beat up Leonard so easily is he was more confident in his preparation, balance, distance, and skills. Norris knew Leonard was inactive. He knew SRL was fighting cherry picks and washed up fighters. He also knew Leonard thought he was chinny. Norris boxed to his best capabilities and Leonard couldn't get near his chin. A bad chin is only a liability if your opponent can hit it -- as Tyson found out with Douglas -- you need to land a good shot even on a chinless guy."
SRL was also more consistent with his boxing career than Tyson. He didn't deviate into alternative life styles and women by the dozen as often"
brilliant.BoxBuzz wrote:man wrote:i am at loss of words.Kalan wrote:Mike was an inch taller. HIs hands were faster on a straight power shot and retraction. They blasted in there faster than Sugar Ray's. .... You can't say the man who lands the most and best punches is the fastest.
do well, sir.
Hmm I don't know just who this "You" person that Kalan refers to may be. But "I" say this, "The man who lands the most and best punches is the fastest". And you are welcome to Quote the "I" that is me.
So apparently "I" is/are/am NOT "You".....
I find this to be very profound. And am proud NOT to be this "You" person that Kalan refers to here. (whomever he may be.) And when I find "You", "I" will attempt speak reason with "You" , and persuade "You" otherwise.
you are digressing from the subject.Kalan wrote:I'm talking about you... Speed is only one of many attributes that allow you to outbox people.
we are talking speed here, nothing else andKalan wrote:Speed doesn't always tell the story.. Ali got outpunched by guys who weren't faster than him (Norton, Frazier)
Norton and Frazier were outpunched by a guy who wasn't faster than them (Foreman) but seemed to be... Maybe just in better condition?
Lewis got outpunched by 2 guys who weren't faster than him (McCall, Rahman) But they seemed to have an early rhythm going in those fights and you expected them to land a big shot on Lewis at any moment, because they took real good cuts earlier... In the rematch Lewis trashed Rahman from the bell and made him look like a rank novice... In the rematch with McCall I'm not sure what happened. McCall was crying like a little girl who lost her Teddy.
couldn't disagree more. tyson was oneKalan wrote:Tyson was faster than Leonard with his hands... His hand speed was unbelievable... That right hand that knocked out Michael Spinks? That had a lot of pace on it.
well, he is a heavy and his kos probablyKalan wrote:Were ONLY talking about hand speed... Not foot speed... Not head speed to slip a punch... Not thinking speed in how fast and deftly you make adjustments with a quick mind ... We're talking about how fast your fist goes from point A to point B when you fire your fastest and strongest right hander... Tyson put guys like Michael Spinks... Larry Holmes... Franz Botha... and others out cold with one scorching right that got there in a hurry.
I haven't seen Leonard rip them in there that fast.
Kalan wrote:Ali was a soft puncher... He had little speed on his shots vs 5th rate pugs like Alfredo Evangelista... Joe Bugner... George Chuvalo... Buster Mathis... Leon Stinks... and Ruddi Lubbers... He couldn't knock any of them down or out... Somewhat better guys like Ken Norton beat Ali up and shattered his jaw... I don't see the China chinned Norton beating Mike Tyson - or lasting 2 rounds with him.. MIke had too much speed and power for Norton.
Mike Tyson showed his great hand speed and power versus undefeated Heavyweight Champion MIchael Spinks.. who would have stopped those 5th rate clowns above... After all, Michael Spinks beat Larry Holmes, a guy who destroyed Ali with little effort... Mike Tyson obliterated Holmes with his speedy hands.
Kalan wrote: After all, Michael Spinks beat Larry Holmes, a guy who destroyed Ali with little effort... Mike Tyson obliterated Holmes with his speedy hands.
BuzzBox... You didn't see Ali's Alfredo Evangelista, Joe Bugner, Buster Mathis, Leon Stinks, or Ruddi Lubbers fights... Ali's hands looked less than speedy as those guys easily went the distance without getting hurt... Do you think any of them would get away from Mike Tyson's speedier hands??? NO!!!BoxBuzz wrote:Kalan wrote:Ali was a soft puncher... He had little speed on his shots vs 5th rate pugs like Alfredo Evangelista... Joe Bugner... George Chuvalo... Buster Mathis... Leon Stinks... and Ruddi Lubbers... He couldn't knock any of them down or out... Somewhat better guys like Ken Norton beat Ali up and shattered his jaw... I don't see the China chinned Norton beating Mike Tyson - or lasting 2 rounds with him.. MIke had too much speed and power for Norton.
Mike Tyson showed his great hand speed and power versus undefeated Heavyweight Champion MIchael Spinks.. who would have stopped those 5th rate clowns above... After all, Michael Spinks beat Larry Holmes, a guy who destroyed Ali with little effort... Mike Tyson obliterated Holmes with his speedy hands.
So....should we believe you, or our own lying eyes? I guess we should go with you, though it seems so counter intuitive to do so.
Ali's hands look faster certainly his Jab, but it can't be true if you say it aint so. Because you are better than any 3rd rate sparring partner at assessing such skills.
Hey wait, are you sure you are being fair minded and balanced in your assessment here?
Maybe I should pose this question.....Tyson Fury or Muhammad Ali? Who you got?
