Monzon: The Greatest MW of all time? as told by Mike Casey

[PredatorHayds]

I also have Monzon as my middleweight number 1.

[cfang]

Its tough when you get into the realms of legends like this. Robinson was the greatest welter of all time and I agree, he was past his best at Middle and at that weight I can see him having problems with a few of the greatest middleweights.

I'm the big Hagler fan. Grew up watching him and he was my boxing Idol. I could see Monzon outpointing him though. Styles make fights and I agree Monzon would prevail.

All in all though, I'm going for Greb as the greatest middle of all time. If he could beat Tunney, I think he may be able to beat Monzon too. Hard to say though but Grebs record just aces everyone's I think. Doesn't matter if there's no film of him. I bet if there was nobody would be surprised, he'd be just what you'd expect - super fast, hard as nails, never stopping, punches from all angles and hard to tag.

Im still not sure why Langford doesnt enter into these discussions though. He seems to be ranked at lt heavy or heavy but was a middle early on and was considered the man avoided by ketchell. Ofc they had a 6 rounder and by most accounts, Langford got the better of it.

[Kalan]

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"Monzon kept his body beautiful in trim by resting it horizontally against any passably attractive woman and by blow-torching his lungs with up to a hundred cigarettes a day"

No kidding??? Maybe that's why Rodrigo Valdez knocked Monzon down twice...on account of Monzon's blow-torched lungs. Monzon also lost a fights to guys you never heard of...I won't mention that, I'll be polite... I rank Monzon 2nd best at 160 behind the best ever Middleweight Gennady Golovkin -- who would have KO'd Valdez in 5 rounds. No I'm not joking, Valdez already had 5 losses and 2 draws when he fought Monzon (including to 2nd raters give me a break) and went on to lose 3 more fights---including getting thoroughly outboxed by Hugo Corro who is not your all time P4P legend... So the fact that Valdez was very competitive with Monzon doesn't exactly put me in awe of Monzon's mythical standing.. You know? ... Here's another tip. it doesn't mean a damned thing if a guy goes 56-0---such as Yory Boy Campas did for instance---when he fought all cherry picks. So Sugar Ray Robinson padding his record with a million cherries never impressed me. After SRR won the Middleweight Title he padded his record with 8 more bums in 4 months... then Ray fought his first actual Title Defense against a half good fighter and LOST it.

Okay...so we got Sugar Ray Robinson: World Middleweight Title defense record of 3-3 with 2 KO wins... NOT better than Carlos Monzon, get it???

We got Carlos Monzon, (scorched lungs and all): World Middleweight Title defense record of 14-0 with 9 KO wins... BETTER than SRR. Get it???

Then we got Marvelous Marvin: World Middleweight Title defense record of 12-1 with 10 KO wins... That's better than SRR too. Pay attention here.

Then we got Gennady Golovkin: World Middleweight Title defense record of 16-16 with 16 KO wins... Nobody won more than a round off him.

The thing is this... Gennady Golovkin didn't spend the next 4 months after he won the Middleweight Title padding his record with 10 cheese cakes who had records such as: 31-21, 20-8, and 24-33... so when you hear somebody had a 125-2-2 record during his career ask if some of those were actual WORLD TITLE DEFENSES... because it's harder to sell a World Title Defense if you're fighting somebody who couldn't beat your sister... and there's also been a lot of Middleweights in the world over the last 7 years named Sergio Martinez, Miguel Cotto, Daniel Jacobs, and Canelo Alvarez who racked up Middleweight Title Defenses against guys named Sergio Mora, Amir Khan, and Daniel Geale and NOT guys named Gennady Golovkin... and the reason they give for NOT fighting Gennady Golovkin??? ... He never fought anybody.

[Kalan]

"Then we got Gennady Golovkin: World Middleweight Title defense record of 16-16 with 16 KO wins... Nobody won more than a round off him"

What I meant was he went 16 for 16... which means (so far) Gennady Golovkin is 16-0 with 16 KO wins in 16 World Middleweight Title Defenses.

Bernard Hopkins is 19-1 with 1 NC in 20 Middleweight Title Defenses. For me, that puts him behind Monzon but ahead of Robinson's 3-3 with 2 KOs.

[Keko]

Monzon was great mw but Greb is sure the best mw !

[Kalan]

Greb was a weak hitter... He had a KO ratio of 16%... He also had those losses to Flowers, Gibbons, Norfolk, Chip, and others

[cfang]

Greb was a weak hitter... He had a KO ratio of 16%... He also had those losses to Flowers, Gibbons, Norfolk, Chip, and others

I cant be bothered anymore.

[Kalan]

Because it's impossible to dispute facts that can be checked immediately.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Was one of the Greatest Middleweight King's top 5 surely but not number 1.......my pick for that spot Sugar Ray Robinson.GREAT STORY THOUGH.

[Keko]

On most lists Greb is nr1 MW!It is a fact!
107-8-3 and the great victory over the fantastic boxer!
And 1924 he was won T.Flowers 1926 not but last year was..

[Kalan]

Nobody feared Harry Greb. He had no trouble getting fights because he didn't win all the time and his KO ratio was only 16%.

And Robinson's record in Middleweight Title Defenses was 3-3 with 2 KO's. The shorter and smaller Basilio had no fear of Robinson. He wasn't too fast or skilled, but managed to beat Robinson and came up from Welterweight to do it. Robinson managed 1 win in 4 tries with Fullmer, who wasn't the most advanced student of the science and lost quite a few times. Robinson was decked hard by Artie Levine, Jake LaMotta, and Robinson was a great fighter no doubt. I'm just pointing out that he wasn't invulnerable. He got decked hard for a 9-cound with Artie Lavine and was really rocky when he got up. That fight would be stopped today. He was also decked hard by Tommy Bell, Jake LaMotta and Rocky Graziano. Robinson fell on his face in the Joey Maxim fight, and when the round ended he quit. Ralph Jones suffered 5 straight defeats and then beat Robinson very badly.

Gennady Golovkin's record in Middleweight Title Defenses was 16-0 with 16 KO's, with the top Middleweights never wanting to fight him for obvious reasons... GGG has a 100% KO ratio in Middleweight Title Defenses, to Robinson's 33% KO ratio in Middleweight Title Defenses. Robinson was great but Golovkin deserves consideration because he's a better boxer and puncher. Golovkin his never been knocked down, or ever shaken up or wobbled in 385 amateur and pro fights ... while Robinson has been knocked down many times and Monzon hit the deck from punches as well.

[Keko]

GGG great boxer but he had no fights with great boxers.

[Ambling Alp II]

If I remember right, Greb was 162 when he knocked the stuffing out of alltime great Gene Tunney who was 181 I think. Could Monzon have managed a similar feat ? I doubt it, since he never moved up to challenge Bob Foster, in what would have most likely been his biggest payday ever.

Always wished that Monzon and Hagler would have dared to go for the challenge. The real legends did that.

[cfang]

The 'light punching' Greb managed to mangle Gene Tunney who outweighed him by 20 lbs. So Kalan - how could this be possible? I mean Dempsey couldn't beat Tunney but Greb did. Records show Greb was a light puncher and it's fact that Tunney was far larger. All your arguments are based on these two facts and yet...Greb won - kind of makes you think there's more to this boxing lark than stats and size eh?

The truth is Greb hit hard enough to hurt all time great boxers far larger than him - in fact legends. KOs were not his style - he won his fights on points and that's why he managed to have 298 fights - If he went for kos maybe his hands wouldn't have stood up to it? Maybe it was too risky to KO guys early. Who knows?

What I do know is that Greb's record is better than anyone's in the history of boxing - the number of fights, quality of those fighters and taking on guys far larger than him, the longevity, the quality.

Just read Klompton's book and learn a thing or two

[BoxBuzz]

What I learned from Klompton's book, is that he could have beaten any MW but Monzon.

And of course, GGG, since Kalan says so. Kalan and my opinions, are all YOU (whomever YOU may or may not be) need to know on this subject.

You can be sure we have done the research, checked the stats, conferred with our fellow wizards, and taken the heavy lifting of you YOU, the little guy.

[Kalan]

BuzzBox... You like to rail on like a drunk without making a single point... Try to make a POINT... And you guys DIDN'T check any stats because Tunney was a lot LIGHTER than 181 when he lost to Greb, mostly because a headbutt opened a gash on Tunney's eye and it blurred his vision very badly the rest of the way... Tunney made up for that by beating Greb 3 times. He beat him badly when he had only 3 and half pounds on him... Greb stated unequivocally "I'm done fighting Gene Tunney" after the last time Tunney trounced Greb.. Tunney has ONE (1) loss in his career... Greb has EIGHT (8) losses -- including losing to Soldier Barfield in his 27th fight when he outweighed Bartfield by 14.5lbs... That was at least Greb's 3rd loss BTW. Gennady Golovkin's record is 35-0 with 32 KO wins... And he'd have over 40 fights if some of these coward MIDDLEWEIGHTS would fight.

It was permissible to lose a fight in Greb's days and the whole of the 20th Century... Sugar Ray Robinson was 3-3 with 2 KO wins in 6 Middleweight Title Defenses... SRR fought Joey Maxim and quit in his corner (losing the fight). Robinson fans (not the fair ones because I'm a big Robinson fan) always blame that on the heat. It seems wherever Maxim happened to be in that ring, the temperature was a lot cooler... Robinson got the trash beaten out of him by Ralph Jones. Jones was coming off 5 straight losses but that's not a fight unfair folks like to talk about... They like to talk about the times GGG got hit in boxing matches he won easily... Not that any of those punches hurt GGG or decked him.. He's never been knocked down in his life.. Sugar Ray Robinson was decked and hurt a bunch of times.. Including by unskilled swingers like Rocky Graziano.. Gustav Scholz complained that Sugar Ray Robinson wouldn't fight him.. Scholz went undefeated for many more fights than Robinson did... Scholz was undefeated in his first 68 fights but had a very difficult time trying to get Middleweight fights with ranked Americans.

[Jpreisser]

I've followed Mike Casey's work for awhile. Very good writer, but he places too much emphasis on hypothetical outcomes. I don't discredit the exercise entirely, as I think you can come up with reasonable inferences, but to place a guy atop a division because of it...I can't see it. The results they produced matter much more and Greb is clear as day number one in that regard.

Also, I'm a big fan of Golovkin, but it's a big stretch to compare Golovkin's "16 title defenses" with any of the greats.

[Kalan]

Golovkin is already acknowledged to be great by Hopkins, Hagler, Toney and other ATG's... If Golovkin were an American with what he's done, he would have already been given the opportunities to fight Martinez, Cotto, Canelo, Quillin, Jacobs, Saunders and others.

The fact that those guys were able to avoid GGG as champion is nothing new for a European Middleweight... Gustav Scholz went through the same thing in his prime when he went undefeated in his first 68 fights in the 1950's... Lazlo Papp won 3 Olympic Gold Medals in Boxing and went undefeated for his pro career... He was able to travel freely to Western Europe for fights - but couldn't get a visa or a fight in the United States.

Now Eastern Europeans are breaking through, but American Boxing interests are fighting them tooth and nail... However saner, fairer heads are acknowledging Golovkin's greatness... There's no way you can favorably compare Sugar Ray Robinson's Middleweight Title Defense record of 3-3 with 2 KO wins with Gennady Golovkin's Middleweight Title Defense record of 16-0 with 16 KO wins.. And when you study their fights and realize Robinson got knocked down by guys like Artie Levine, Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, and Tommy Bell among others -- and Gennady Golovkin has NEVER been knocked down in his life, that doesn't make Robinson look good either.. Then when you study their fights and see Robinson getting punched in the face with crude swings that would never hit the more aggressive Golovkin in the ass...then you realize, as a technician, Robinson never reached the level Golovkin is on right now.

[gilgamesh]

Golovkin is one of the most popular boxers even in America right now. His fights draw bigger ratings on HBO than anybody's. Don't see how it benefits anybody to hold him back especially when there really aren't any significant American Middleweights on the scene.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Its tough when you get into the realms of legends like this. Robinson was the greatest welter of all time and I agree, he was past his best at Middle and at that weight I can see him having problems with a few of the greatest middleweights.

I'm the big Hagler fan. Grew up watching him and he was my boxing Idol. I could see Monzon outpointing him though. Styles make fights and I agree Monzon would prevail.

All in all though, I'm going for Greb as the greatest middle of all time. If he could beat Tunney, I think he may be able to beat Monzon too. Hard to say though but Grebs record just aces everyone's I think. Doesn't matter if there's no film of him. I bet if there was nobody would be surprised, he'd be just what you'd expect - super fast, hard as nails, never stopping, punches from all angles and hard to tag.

Im still not sure why Langford doesnt enter into these discussions though. He seems to be ranked at lt heavy or heavy but was a middle early on and was considered the man avoided by ketchell. Ofc they had a 6 rounder and by most accounts, Langford got the better of it.

You are kidding that statement about Robinson being past his BEST at Middleweight will do me as the DUMBEST thing I have heard anyone say he won the Middleweight a record 5 time's IMAGINE IF HE WAS AT HIS BEST.....MATE YOU JUST PUT ROBINSON ON TOP BECAUSE ANYONE PAST THEIR BEST THAT WINS THE SAME WORLD TITLE A UNMATCHED 5 TIME'S IS A FREAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.

[BoxBuzz]

I would tend to agree with CFang. Clive do you feel that Robinson was getting better, and performed better as a MW? I'm not suggesting he didn't do very well as a MW, but I never thought it was where he did his best work.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

I would tend to agree with CFang. Clive do you feel that Robinson was getting better, and performed better as a MW? I'm not suggesting he didn't do very well as a MW, but I never thought it was where he did his best work.

He did very well at Welterweight was 73-1-1 when he won the vacant title with a point's dec over Tommy Bell he then made 5 defence's one was when beat Jimmy Doyle in a tragic event he also defended his Title on 4 other occasion's against in no particular order The Great Kid Gavilan/Chuck Taylor/Charley Fusari/Bernard Docusen so he went something like 79-1-1 below Middleweight that means at Middleweight or above he record was its not exact but its something like 94-18-5 and a lot of those losses were when he was really finished.............................................................. In Middleweight Title fight's he went 10-6-1-8 ko's his last 6 Middleweight Title fight's he went 1-4-1 draw his 1958 fight of the year was his last Big Win in a Title Fight when he was about 37 year's old.......... Age caught up to him at Middleweight in the late 50's and early 60's he certainly wasn't PAST HIS BEST AT MIDDLEWEIGHT THATS JUST NOT POSSIBLE I WOULD LOVE TO GET SOME OF HIS OPPONENT'S OPINION ON THAT THE HE BEAT AT MIDDLEWEIGHT MUST HAVE BEEN 2ND AND 3RD AND 4TH RATER'S THEN AND IF YOU WANT TO GET TECHNICAL HE WAS PROBABLEY THE BEST JR MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER

[Kalan]

Golovkin is one of the most popular boxers even in America right now. His fights draw bigger ratings on HBO than anybody's. Don't see how it benefits anybody to hold him back especially when there really aren't any significant American Middleweights on the scene.

Maybe because Canelo is a North American???? ... Maybe because Daniel Jacobs is an American and Al Haymon also owns Peter Quillin???? ... Maybe because they don't hold GGG under contract???? ... Maybe because K2 Promotions isn't as influential as Golden Boy and Al Haymon??? ... Maybe because there's a fear Golovkin could do what the Klitschko Bros did with all the Heavyweight Titles. Run back to Europe with them???? ... Maybe because they've successfully bottled up Golovkin and kept him away from the top Middleweights for the last 6 years and think they can keep doing that until he's an old man???? ... He's no youngster and they've been very successful.

[Kalan]

Its tough when you get into the realms of legends like this. Robinson was the greatest welter of all time and I agree, he was past his best at Middle and at that weight I can see him having problems with a few of the greatest middleweights.

I'm the big Hagler fan. Grew up watching him and he was my boxing Idol. I could see Monzon outpointing him though. Styles make fights and I agree Monzon would prevail.

All in all though, I'm going for Greb as the greatest middle of all time. If he could beat Tunney, I think he may be able to beat Monzon too. Hard to say though but Grebs record just aces everyone's I think. Doesn't matter if there's no film of him. I bet if there was nobody would be surprised, he'd be just what you'd expect - super fast, hard as nails, never stopping, punches from all angles and hard to tag.

Im still not sure why Langford doesnt enter into these discussions though. He seems to be ranked at lt heavy or heavy but was a middle early on and was considered the man avoided by ketchell. Ofc they had a 6 rounder and by most accounts, Langford got the better of it.

You are kidding that statement about Robinson being past his BEST at Middleweight will do me as the DUMBEST thing I have heard anyone say he won the Middleweight a record 5 time's IMAGINE IF HE WAS AT HIS BEST.....MATE YOU JUST PUT ROBINSON ON TOP BECAUSE ANYONE PAST THEIR BEST THAT WINS THE SAME WORLD TITLE A UNMATCHED 5 TIME'S IS A FREAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.

That also means Sugar Ray Robinson LOST quite a few World Middleweight Title Fights. Gennady Golovkin is 17-0 in World Middleweight Title Fights so I guess if GGG just LOST every other of those Title Fights he could be an EIGHT (8) TIMES Middleweight Champion of the World by now. I also want to point out that Ralph Jones LOST FIVE (5) FIGHTS IN A ROW and them BEAT Sugar Ray Robinson by a wide margin...just beat Ray's ass in.. Jones couldn't get a rematch with Robinson to save his LIFE!!! Robinson was a pretty good cherry-picker. He didn't go for the toughest opponents. Consecutive World Middleweight Title Defenses is the Gold Standard for the top 160-pounders... Hopkins is 19-1-with 12 KO's and 1 NC.. ... GGG is 16-0... but with 16 KO's... Monzon is 14-0 with 9 KO's... Hagler is 12-1 with 11 KO's... Robinson is 3-3 in with 2 KO's.

[BoxBuzz]

So your going with the ol' "Ottke never lost a fight" reasoning.

Sound!