Monzon: The Greatest MW of all time? as told by Mike Casey

[cfang]

Its tough when you get into the realms of legends like this. Robinson was the greatest welter of all time and I agree, he was past his best at Middle and at that weight I can see him having problems with a few of the greatest middleweights.

I'm the big Hagler fan. Grew up watching him and he was my boxing Idol. I could see Monzon outpointing him though. Styles make fights and I agree Monzon would prevail.

All in all though, I'm going for Greb as the greatest middle of all time. If he could beat Tunney, I think he may be able to beat Monzon too. Hard to say though but Grebs record just aces everyone's I think. Doesn't matter if there's no film of him. I bet if there was nobody would be surprised, he'd be just what you'd expect - super fast, hard as nails, never stopping, punches from all angles and hard to tag.

Im still not sure why Langford doesnt enter into these discussions though. He seems to be ranked at lt heavy or heavy but was a middle early on and was considered the man avoided by ketchell. Ofc they had a 6 rounder and by most accounts, Langford got the better of it.

You are kidding that statement about Robinson being past his BEST at Middleweight will do me as the DUMBEST thing I have heard anyone say he won the Middleweight a record 5 time's IMAGINE IF HE WAS AT HIS BEST.....MATE YOU JUST PUT ROBINSON ON TOP BECAUSE ANYONE PAST THEIR BEST THAT WINS THE SAME WORLD TITLE A UNMATCHED 5 TIME'S IS A FREAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.

SRR is probably the greatest fighter of all time - its very close ofc between he, greb and langford as those 3 seem to always be the top guys when it comes to talking all time p4p on these forums. A very good friend of mine (sadly deceased) used to train at stillmans gym and saw robinson many times. he said he was the greatest fighter ever and its hard to disagree with that statement. However.......

Me saying that SRR was past his best as a middle is fact. He was unbeatable at welter - only la motta beat him he was so good and SRR avenged that. At middle he was ofc still incredible, amazing etc but he wasnt unbeatable - hence he lost a few to basillio, fullmer etc etc. So, by definition going from unbeatable to beatable if only rarely makes him past his best at Middle when he was older. I question this as being the dumbest thing ever said as its a) got basis in fact and b) we've recently had things like peeps saying a basketball player beats ali and joshua is the greatest heavy ever.

[Kalan]

So your going with the ol' "Ottke never lost a fight" reasoning.Sound!

Make sense BoxBuzz... Ottke hid out in Germany and ducked the best Middleweights in the Division... GGG runs all over the world chasing opponents down.. People are ducking Golovkin.. NOT the reverse.. Golovkin just got the WBC belt after chasing it for 6 years -- but NOT because Canelo was willing to step into a ring and face GGG.. Canelo abandoned it so he wouldn't get knocked cold.

Did Sugar Ray Robinson every offer Ralph Jones a rematch???? .... You don't have to be undefeated like Ottke to be a DUCKER!!!

[BoxBuzz]

So your going with the ol' "Ottke never lost a fight" reasoning.Sound!

Make sense BoxBuzz... Ottke hid out in Germany and ducked the best Middleweights in the Division... GGG runs all over the world chasing opponents down.. People are ducking Golovkin.. NOT the reverse.. Golovkin just got the WBC belt after chasing it for 6 years -- but NOT because Canelo was willing to step into a ring and face GGG.. Canelo abandoned it so he wouldn't get knocked cold.

Did Sugar Ray Robinson every offer Ralph Jones a rematch???? .... You don't have to be undefeated like Ottke to be a DUCKER!!!

Troo Dat!

[gilgamesh]

Sugar Ray Robinson was well into his career before he even got a shot at the Middleweight Title. He was 5-0 in Welterweight Title fights, and had numerous Non-Title fights in between as a Middleweight winning them all. He only lost 1 of his first 130 or so fights. He was very, very far into his career and had quite a bit of miles on his body before he started losing to the likes of Ralph Jones.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Greb clearly has the best resume, I think Hagler was the best fighter. He was too fast and strong for Monzon.

[BoxBuzz]

Greb clearly has the best resume, I think Hagler was the best fighter. He was too fast and strong for Monzon.

Look Saad you know better. When are you going to change this stubborn opinion of yours? And where does such an opinion come from? Certainly not me.....and not Kalan. So I'm not sure just where all this "thinkin' for yourself" is comin from, or what it's leading to. But it's out of line, and it's got to stop.


It's not like Kalan or I haven't been clear in what the choices are. It's Monzon, or GGG. Pick one, and be at peace.

[Kalan]

It's not like Kalan or I haven't been clear in what the choices are. It's Monzon, or GGG. Pick one, and be at peace.

You like to put words and opinions in people's mouths Buzz... MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE DEFENSES: There's Hopkins: 19-1 with 12 KO's 1 NC... Golovkin 16-0 with 16 KO's... Monzon 14-0 with 9 KO's... Hagler 12-1 with 11 KO's... Then lets jump over 20 Middleweight Champions to Robinson: 3-3 with 2 KO's.

Pick who you like... Facts help illuminate the choices... Here's some clues... MORE consecutive Middleweight Title Defenses??? More dominant historically... More KO wins??? More punching power... More guys who won't fight him??? More feared, ducked, and avoided...

It so happens that Hopkins, Golovkin, Monzon and Hagler kicked a lot more ass at the World Title Level than SRR what's his face ever did.

[Ambling Alp II]

Amazing that people still forget the "Title Defense Formula" (lets call it TDF) when rating fighters. What you do is that the amount of title defenses a fighter had, and multiply it by the number zero. The answer is how important the sheer number of title defenses is.

If a champion wants to, he can always find someone with a pulse to beat.

Maybe we should take into consideration the stage of Robinson's career for some of these fights. When GGG had well over 100 fights, and is beating great fighters, maybe he then should be considered up there.
Don't recall Monzon, Hopkins, or Hagler doing that.

Maybe we should also look at Robinson 5 wins over Jake LaMotta. Not sure what Triple G and Hopkins did to compare with that.

[Cutman Scabbers]

Who was the tallest middleweight of all time?

[Tomasino]

Who was the tallest middleweight of all time?

Wilt Chamberlain.

[Cutman Scabbers]

Who was the tallest middleweight of all time?

Wilt Chamberlain.

My bad -- should have been obvious!

[Kalan]

Maybe we should take into consideration the stage of Robinson's career for some of these fights. When GGG had well over 100 fights, and is beating great fighters, maybe he then should be considered up there ... Maybe we should also look at Robinson 5 wins over Jake LaMotta

Robinson was one of the great record padders of all time... The fact that he fought 150 guys who couldn't box or punch very well, just to fatten up his record, didn't help him when he fought somebody like Ralph Jones or Joey Maxim... who were eminently beatable opponents, who had tons of losses, who kicked his ass.

Five wins over LaMotta???? Okay: Jose Basora.. Nate Bolden.. Cecil Hudson.. Norm Hayes.. and Billy Kilgore ... LaMotta had 19 losses so it's easy to find 5...

GGG just beat a mandatory with ZERO losses... who would probably beat the very hittable LaMotta quite easily ... after all he's a lot taller, faster, smarter, and harder to hit than LaMotta... Wade is 5'11" X 175 with a 63% KO ratio -- LaMotta was 5'8" X 167 with a 28% KO ratio.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Its tough when you get into the realms of legends like this. Robinson was the greatest welter of all time and I agree, he was past his best at Middle and at that weight I can see him having problems with a few of the greatest middleweights.

I'm the big Hagler fan. Grew up watching him and he was my boxing Idol. I could see Monzon outpointing him though. Styles make fights and I agree Monzon would prevail.

All in all though, I'm going for Greb as the greatest middle of all time. If he could beat Tunney, I think he may be able to beat Monzon too. Hard to say though but Grebs record just aces everyone's I think. Doesn't matter if there's no film of him. I bet if there was nobody would be surprised, he'd be just what you'd expect - super fast, hard as nails, never stopping, punches from all angles and hard to tag.

Im still not sure why Langford doesnt enter into these discussions though. He seems to be ranked at lt heavy or heavy but was a middle early on and was considered the man avoided by ketchell. Ofc they had a 6 rounder and by most accounts, Langford got the better of it.

You are kidding that statement about Robinson being past his BEST at Middleweight will do me as the DUMBEST thing I have heard anyone say he won the Middleweight a record 5 time's IMAGINE IF HE WAS AT HIS BEST.....MATE YOU JUST PUT ROBINSON ON TOP BECAUSE ANYONE PAST THEIR BEST THAT WINS THE SAME WORLD TITLE A UNMATCHED 5 TIME'S IS A FREAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.

SRR is probably the greatest fighter of all time - its very close ofc between he, greb and langford as those 3 seem to always be the top guys when it comes to talking all time p4p on these forums. A very good friend of mine (sadly deceased) used to train at stillmans gym and saw robinson many times. he said he was the greatest fighter ever and its hard to disagree with that statement. However.......

Me saying that SRR was past his best as a middle is fact. He was unbeatable at welter - only la motta beat him he was so good and SRR avenged that. At middle he was ofc still incredible, amazing etc but he wasnt unbeatable - hence he lost a few to basillio, fullmer etc etc. So, by definition going from unbeatable to beatable if only rarely makes him past his best at Middle when he was older. I question this as being the dumbest thing ever said as its a) got basis in fact and b) we've recently had things like peeps saying a basketball player beats ali and joshua is the greatest heavy ever.

OK I probably over did it with the Dumbest thing quote I might own that and I can sort of see where you are coming from but you are the 1st person i'v ever heard say Robinson was past his best at Middleweight if he was then he is without doubt barr none TBE because some-one past their best don't win World Title's on 5 different occasion's at the same weight today with belt's flying left right and centre no-one can do it and When Robinson lost to La Motta to be fair it was really a Super Middleweight fighting a Jr Middleweight Robinson grew into the Middleweight class he fought at Lightweight when he started his pro career but I do see your point i'm not saying Robinson was a better welterweight or Middleweight
all i'm saying is that He was not past his best at Middleweight in my opinion he was past his best by the very late 50's and basketball players beating Ali well that's got to take the cake...yeah i'v been dethroned. SRR BEST WELTER/JR MIDDLE/MIDDLE EVER THATS MY VIEW

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Its tough when you get into the realms of legends like this. Robinson was the greatest welter of all time and I agree, he was past his best at Middle and at that weight I can see him having problems with a few of the greatest middleweights.

I'm the big Hagler fan. Grew up watching him and he was my boxing Idol. I could see Monzon outpointing him though. Styles make fights and I agree Monzon would prevail.

All in all though, I'm going for Greb as the greatest middle of all time. If he could beat Tunney, I think he may be able to beat Monzon too. Hard to say though but Grebs record just aces everyone's I think. Doesn't matter if there's no film of him. I bet if there was nobody would be surprised, he'd be just what you'd expect - super fast, hard as nails, never stopping, punches from all angles and hard to tag.

Im still not sure why Langford doesnt enter into these discussions though. He seems to be ranked at lt heavy or heavy but was a middle early on and was considered the man avoided by ketchell. Ofc they had a 6 rounder and by most accounts, Langford got the better of it.

You are kidding that statement about Robinson being past his BEST at Middleweight will do me as the DUMBEST thing I have heard anyone say he won the Middleweight a record 5 time's IMAGINE IF HE WAS AT HIS BEST.....MATE YOU JUST PUT ROBINSON ON TOP BECAUSE ANYONE PAST THEIR BEST THAT WINS THE SAME WORLD TITLE A UNMATCHED 5 TIME'S IS A FREAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.

That also means Sugar Ray Robinson LOST quite a few World Middleweight Title Fights. Gennady Golovkin is 17-0 in World Middleweight Title Fights so I guess if GGG just LOST every other of those Title Fights he could be an EIGHT (8) TIMES Middleweight Champion of the World by now. I also want to point out that Ralph Jones LOST FIVE (5) FIGHTS IN A ROW and them BEAT Sugar Ray Robinson by a wide margin...just beat Ray's ass in.. Jones couldn't get a rematch with Robinson to save his LIFE!!! Robinson was a pretty good cherry-picker. He didn't go for the toughest opponents. Consecutive World Middleweight Title Defenses is the Gold Standard for the top 160-pounders... Hopkins is 19-1-with 12 KO's and 1 NC.. ... GGG is 16-0... but with 16 KO's... Monzon is 14-0 with 9 KO's... Hagler is 12-1 with 11 KO's... Robinson is 3-3 in with 2 KO's.

Hopkins and GGG couldn't carry SRR jock strap

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Maybe we should take into consideration the stage of Robinson's career for some of these fights. When GGG had well over 100 fights, and is beating great fighters, maybe he then should be considered up there ... Maybe we should also look at Robinson 5 wins over Jake LaMotta

Robinson was one of the great record padders of all time... The fact that he fought 150 guys who couldn't box or punch very well, just to fatten up his record, didn't help him when he fought somebody like Ralph Jones or Joey Maxim... who were eminently beatable opponents, who had tons of losses, who kicked his ass.

Five wins over LaMotta???? Okay: Jose Basora.. Nate Bolden.. Cecil Hudson.. Norm Hayes.. and Billy Kilgore ... LaMotta had 19 losses so it's easy to find 5...

GGG just beat a mandatory with ZERO losses... who would probably beat the very hittable LaMotta quite easily ... after all he's a lot taller, faster, smarter, and harder to hit than LaMotta... Wade is 5'11" X 175 with a 63% KO ratio -- LaMotta was 5'8" X 167 with a 28% KO ratio.

Well Well this just gets better Wade whooooooooooooo is better then La Motta now that's up there with the basketballer's and Ali thanks for the laugh I needed it keep it up my lifes getting better by the minute

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Greb was a weak hitter... He had a KO ratio of 16%... He also had those losses to Flowers, Gibbons, Norfolk, Chip, and others

I love GGG he aint past guys like Hopkins/Jones Jr they were our most recent Future HOF Middleweight Champion's GGG needs to clean out the division's very best first and if he can't get matched he needs to move up like SRR and many others have done before him and will do after him

[Like a Boss]

Glad someone bumped the thread. I have printed out the OP's post and will read it later on today

[Kalan]

Greb was a weak hitter... He had a KO ratio of 16%... He also had those losses to Flowers, Gibbons, Norfolk, Chip, and others

I love GGG he aint past guys like Hopkins/Jones Jr they were our most recent Future HOF Middleweight Champion's GGG needs to clean out the division's very best first and if he can't get matched he needs to move up like SRR and many others have done before him and will do after him

Golovkin doesn't have to do anything... Monzon and Hagler never moved up... Jacobs, Saunders, and Canelo need to fight GGG... He doesn't have to lose to somebody as inept as Jermain Taylor like Hopkins did, or get knocked out back-to-back by Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson like Roy Jones did... I'm sure he'll turn in more of an undefeated legacy than those guys and do more PPVs.

[Jpreisser]

I keep hearing about these title defenses, but Golovkin's "16 defenses" (though even that number is wrong) are worth very little historically. Monzon, Hagler, Greb, etc. were undisputed champions, while GGG parades around near-useless trinkets. Saul Alvarez is still "the man" there. Hopkins really only sports 6. GGG will likely never get his hands on a single Hall-of-Famer either.

[Kalan]

How many HOFers did Jack Dempsey beat???? ... It's how many future HOFers ducked GGG and continue to duck GGG???? Martinez... Cotto... Canelo... Jacobs... I really don't think the guys there now can run forever... At some point in time, Patterson had to fight Liston.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Greb was a weak hitter... He had a KO ratio of 16%... He also had those losses to Flowers, Gibbons, Norfolk, Chip, and others

I love GGG he aint past guys like Hopkins/Jones Jr they were our most recent Future HOF Middleweight Champion's GGG needs to clean out the division's very best first and if he can't get matched he needs to move up like SRR and many others have done before him and will do after him

Golovkin doesn't have to do anything... Monzon and Hagler never moved up... Jacobs, Saunders, and Canelo need to fight GGG... He doesn't have to lose to somebody as inept as Jermain Taylor like Hopkins did, or get knocked out back-to-back by Antonio Tarver and Glen Johnson like Roy Jones did... I'm sure he'll turn in more of an undefeated legacy than those guys and do more PPVs.

GGG 34 years old father time is closing he's been Champ for about 6 year's and made 16 defence's and the best he's beat is probably David Lemieux if he keeps fighting the calibre of fighter that he's been Challenged by his legacy will be very suspect there are huge payday's above Middleweight fight's that will cement his legacy and bank account..................Hagler had a great record 62-3-2-52 ko's he went undefeated for 11 year's and was undisputed Champ he beat Hearns/Duran/Mugabi/Roldan and he only made 12 defence's beating Lara/Canelo/Charlo brother's just hasn't got the same ring to beating the 4 mentioned above TH/RD/JM/JR as for Monzon his last 80 fight's he went undefeated so stop trying to compare what GGG as done to Hagler and Monzon because there is no comparison what happens in the next 3/4 years will tell the story GGG has got a lot to prove yet to be a future HOF along side these LEGEND'S

[Kalan]

was undisputed Champ he beat Hearns/Duran/Mugabi/Roldan

Rodan truly sucked. Nobody heard of him. Hearns was a weak skinny kid who got flattened often by crude swingers like Iran Barkley... Duran was a bantamweight to lightweight for 64 fights. Duran was very pudgy and looked weak at 160... He lost a lot of fights at 147 and higher including NO MAS!!

Nobody EVER saw ANY James Toney's, Mike McCallum's, Michael Nunn's, or Reggie Johnson's on Hagler's Middleweight record -- because when those VERY tough, strong, durable, clever boxing, and brutal punching Middleweights hit the scene Hagler said "wHOA BABY I'M OUTTA HERE!!!" at the tender age of 32 - after Ray Leonard kicked his slow ass.. I looked forward to those fights... Hagler never fought ANY great Middleweights such as that, but I could understand his reluctance... Those guys were very dangerous... Leonard, Hearns, and Duran ducked them all too.

After Leonard beat Hagler for the Title, SRL's top Middleweight Challengers were Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, and Julian Jackson, WHOA BABY!!! Leonard abandoned the Middleweight Title (like Canelo later did. This is a familiar evasion in Boxing) and fought the unknown crude swinger Donny Lalonde... Leonard was VERY clever. He made Donny Lalonde boil down 7 pounds to 168 to weaken him. SRL asked the orgs to recognize the fight as a "Duel World Title Fight" so he could win 2 Divisional World Titles in one night.. Lalonde decked Leonard early but was soon as weak as a plastic straw in a hot drink.. Ahhh yes.. Leonard took that 168-pound title and defended it at 160 against whoever he wanted... The usual duckers...so clever.

Promoters kept trying to match Leonard with Michael Nunn or Mike McCallum... That's when SRL spotted a chinny dude (Terry Norris) at 154... Norris had been knocked cold by the brutal punching Julian Jackson -- but Norris easily trounced Ray Leonard every round and made him quit Boxing at 34... Now Gennady Golovkin is 34... If GGG tried to retire at the tender age of 34 everybody in the American Media would rip him a new a-hole... but it was fine for Leonard and Hagler to quit at a young age when EXTREMELY tough and strong Middleweights hit the scene.

[cfang]

Oddly I think this may be your worst post yet. Hagler having his quality of op questioned? He cleaned up the division in the late 70s and beat every single middleweight of note in the world for 10 years straight. GGG is a partial title holder. You're deluded if you think GGG has a better resume than Hagler.

was undisputed Champ he beat Hearns/Duran/Mugabi/Roldan

Rodan truly sucked. Nobody heard of him. Hearns was a weak skinny kid who got flattened often by crude swingers like Iran Barkley... Duran was a bantamweight to lightweight for 64 fights. Duran was very pudgy and looked weak at 160... He lost a lot of fights at 147 and higher including NO MAS!!

Nobody EVER saw ANY James Toney's, Mike McCallum's, Michael Nunn's, or Reggie Johnson's on Hagler's Middleweight record -- because when those VERY tough, strong, durable, clever boxing, and brutal punching Middleweights hit the scene Hagler said "wHOA BABY I'M OUTTA HERE!!!" at the tender age of 32 - after Ray Leonard kicked his slow ass.. I looked forward to those fights... Hagler never fought ANY great Middleweights such as that, but I could understand his reluctance... Those guys were very dangerous... Leonard, Hearns, and Duran ducked them all too.

After Leonard beat Hagler for the Title, SRL's top Middleweight Challengers were Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, and Julian Jackson, WHOA BABY!!! Leonard abandoned the Middleweight Title (like Canelo later did. This is a familiar evasion in Boxing) and fought the unknown crude swinger Donny Lalonde... Leonard was VERY clever. He made Donny Lalonde boil down 7 pounds to 168 to weaken him. SRL asked the orgs to recognize the fight as a "Duel World Title Fight" so he could win 2 Divisional World Titles in one night.. Lalonde decked Leonard early but was soon as weak as a plastic straw in a hot drink.. Ahhh yes.. Leonard took that 168-pound title and defended it at 160 against whoever he wanted... The usual duckers...so clever.

Promoters kept trying to match Leonard with Michael Nunn or Mike McCallum... That's when SRL spotted a chinny dude (Terry Norris) at 154... Norris had been knocked cold by the brutal punching Julian Jackson -- but Norris easily trounced Ray Leonard every round and made him quit Boxing at 34... Now Gennady Golovkin is 34... If GGG tried to retire at the tender age of 34 everybody in the American Media would rip him a new a-hole... but it was fine for Leonard and Hagler to quit at a young age when EXTREMELY tough and strong Middleweights hit the scene.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You are kidding that statement about Robinson being past his BEST at Middleweight will do me as the DUMBEST thing I have heard anyone say he won the Middleweight a record 5 time's IMAGINE IF HE WAS AT HIS BEST.....MATE YOU JUST PUT ROBINSON ON TOP BECAUSE ANYONE PAST THEIR BEST THAT WINS THE SAME WORLD TITLE A UNMATCHED 5 TIME'S IS A FREAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.

SRR is probably the greatest fighter of all time - its very close ofc between he, greb and langford as those 3 seem to always be the top guys when it comes to talking all time p4p on these forums. A very good friend of mine (sadly deceased) used to train at stillmans gym and saw robinson many times. he said he was the greatest fighter ever and its hard to disagree with that statement. However.......

Me saying that SRR was past his best as a middle is fact. He was unbeatable at welter - only la motta beat him he was so good and SRR avenged that. At middle he was ofc still incredible, amazing etc but he wasnt unbeatable - hence he lost a few to basillio, fullmer etc etc. So, by definition going from unbeatable to beatable if only rarely makes him past his best at Middle when he was older. I question this as being the dumbest thing ever said as its a) got basis in fact and b) we've recently had things like peeps saying a basketball player beats ali and joshua is the greatest heavy ever.

OK I probably over did it with the Dumbest thing quote I might own that and I can sort of see where you are coming from but you are the 1st person i'v ever heard say Robinson was past his best at Middleweight if he was then he is without doubt barr none TBE because some-one past their best don't win World Title's on 5 different occasion's at the same weight today with belt's flying left right and centre no-one can do it and When Robinson lost to La Motta to be fair it was really a Super Middleweight fighting a Jr Middleweight Robinson grew into the Middleweight class he fought at Lightweight when he started his pro career but I do see your point i'm not saying Robinson was a better welterweight or Middleweight
all i'm saying is that He was not past his best at Middleweight in my opinion he was past his best by the very late 50's and basketball players beating Ali well that's got to take the cake...yeah i'v been dethroned. SRR BEST WELTER/JR MIDDLE/MIDDLE EVER THATS MY VIEW

I've never heard anyone say that Robinson was prime at Middleweight.

[cfang]

TBE is a tricky one. Ofc robinson was a boxing god. He went like 80 odd fights against the best of the best and only lost once to another legend much bigger than him. Then he won the middle title 5 times and went on for ages. Even when a shell of his former self he was still duking it out with the top guys. A perfect fighting machine.

However, Harry Greb beat Gene Tunny officially once and actually won another and could make a case for 3 wins. He beat Lt heavys like Tommy Loughran, Bill Brennan and Tommy Gibbons, He beat guys like mickey walker and tiger flowers when one eyed and past his best.

Then ofc there's Langford - a middle beating up some of the best heavys in the world and again when a bloated facsimile of himself, he was still KOing and hanging with Harry Wills.

These seem head and shoulders above the rest and its hard to split them. SRR did this but didnt do that - Greb did and vice versa.

Then there's Ezzard Charles who came up against the best collection of lt heavys in history, beat all of them and went on to win the heavy title too - ofc when past his best he was going toe to toe with rocky - behind him like 20 others but these 3/4 seem the be the best according to most here.

You are kidding that statement about Robinson being past his BEST at Middleweight will do me as the DUMBEST thing I have heard anyone say he won the Middleweight a record 5 time's IMAGINE IF HE WAS AT HIS BEST.....MATE YOU JUST PUT ROBINSON ON TOP BECAUSE ANYONE PAST THEIR BEST THAT WINS THE SAME WORLD TITLE A UNMATCHED 5 TIME'S IS A FREAKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.

SRR is probably the greatest fighter of all time - its very close ofc between he, greb and langford as those 3 seem to always be the top guys when it comes to talking all time p4p on these forums. A very good friend of mine (sadly deceased) used to train at stillmans gym and saw robinson many times. he said he was the greatest fighter ever and its hard to disagree with that statement. However.......

Me saying that SRR was past his best as a middle is fact. He was unbeatable at welter - only la motta beat him he was so good and SRR avenged that. At middle he was ofc still incredible, amazing etc but he wasnt unbeatable - hence he lost a few to basillio, fullmer etc etc. So, by definition going from unbeatable to beatable if only rarely makes him past his best at Middle when he was older. I question this as being the dumbest thing ever said as its a) got basis in fact and b) we've recently had things like peeps saying a basketball player beats ali and joshua is the greatest heavy ever.

OK I probably over did it with the Dumbest thing quote I might own that and I can sort of see where you are coming from but you are the 1st person i'v ever heard say Robinson was past his best at Middleweight if he was then he is without doubt barr none TBE because some-one past their best don't win World Title's on 5 different occasion's at the same weight today with belt's flying left right and centre no-one can do it and When Robinson lost to La Motta to be fair it was really a Super Middleweight fighting a Jr Middleweight Robinson grew into the Middleweight class he fought at Lightweight when he started his pro career but I do see your point i'm not saying Robinson was a better welterweight or Middleweight
all i'm saying is that He was not past his best at Middleweight in my opinion he was past his best by the very late 50's and basketball players beating Ali well that's got to take the cake...yeah i'v been dethroned. SRR BEST WELTER/JR MIDDLE/MIDDLE EVER THATS MY VIEW