Heavyweight Rankings

[Ambling Alp II]

Thought this would be fun.

Did a list of the 100, with 10 Level of 10 fighters in each level.

Obviously some guys that could go up or one down a level. Level 9 and 10 could easily be replaced by some guys who just missed it.

Look forward to some words of wisdom.
Thought if we discussed some guys other than the usual Top 10 or so.

Level 1 – Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, Jack Johnson, Lewis, Liston, Louis, Marciano
Level 2 – Bowe, Dempsey, Jeffries, Jeannette, Langford, McVey, Schmeling, Tyson, Tunney, Wills
Level 3 – Max Baer, Charles, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jackson, Norton, Patterson, Jack Sharkey, Sullivan, Walcott
Level 4 – Ellis, Lyle, Quarry, James Smith, Michael Spinks, Ernie Terrell, Tubbs, Tucker, Witherspoon, Young
Level -5 Berbick, Bugner, Dokes, Folley, Machen, Mercer, Page, Shavers, Thomas, Weaver
Level 6 – Bruno, Coetzee, Douglas, Johansson, W. Klitschko, V. Klitschko, Loughran, McCall, Ray, Tate
Level 7 – Bivins, Bonavena, Burns, Gains, Godfrey, Harold Johnson, Miske, Moore, Moorer, Schaaf
Level 8 – Braddock, Byrd, Carnera, Hart, Ruddock, Tom Sharkey, Snipes, Willard, Carl Williams, Cleveland Williams
Level 9 – Buddy Baer, Choynski, Chuvalo, Cooney, Greb, Goddard, Martin, Rahman, Tua, Uzcudun
Level 10 – Farr, Firpo, Fulton, LaStarza, Layne, Mildenberger, Ruhlin, Gunboat Smith, Leon Spinks, Stribling

[Crease]

Did a list of the 100, with 10 Level of 10 fighters in each level.

An interesting concept, definitely a good way of breaking things down so that we can examine them in a better light. It's gonna be a long process but we all gotta start somewhere, I suppose.

Level 1 – Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, Jack Johnson, Lewis, Liston, Louis, Marciano

Starting from the top and working our way down. I've got; (in alphabetical order)

Level 1: Ali, Dempsey, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Johnson, Lewis, Louis, Marciano, Tyson

Touching below that, immediately I would be throwing in (just of the top of my head)

Charles, Holyfield, V Klitschko, Liston, Schmeling, Tunney, Walcott

And 4 probably from; Patterson, Norton, W Klitschko, Baer - well that actually is 4... But I wouldn't settle on them rightaway, I'd have to give it some more thought. There's no point rushing it and forgetting about people.

But at least we've made some sort of a start.

[Seamus]

The Klitschko's are level 6 ?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The Klitschko's are level 6 ?

Agreed, that's a bit high.

[cfang]

This is good as it prompts more interesting discussion on the less obvious.

Ok so I'd put Walcott and Charles into T2 instead of jeanette and mcvey.
The klits should be in T3
James Smith shouldn't be in T4. He should be in 7 or 8 and ditto Bruno.
Tubbs in T5 for me
Cooney in 5 or even 4. He was a much better fighter than those in 9
Braddock is always underrated and he was at the time too - I reckon he may outpoint many in T7 so he goes in there :)

Thought this would be fun.

Did a list of the 100, with 10 Level of 10 fighters in each level.

Obviously some guys that could go up or one down a level. Level 9 and 10 could easily be replaced by some guys who just missed it.

Look forward to some words of wisdom.
Thought if we discussed some guys other than the usual Top 10 or so.

Level 1 – Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, Jack Johnson, Lewis, Liston, Louis, Marciano
Level 2 – Bowe, Dempsey, Jeffries, Jeannette, Langford, McVey, Schmeling, Tyson, Tunney, Wills
Level 3 – Max Baer, Charles, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jackson, Norton, Patterson, Jack Sharkey, Sullivan, Walcott
Level 4 – Ellis, Lyle, Quarry, James Smith, Michael Spinks, Ernie Terrell, Tubbs, Tucker, Witherspoon, Young
Level -5 Berbick, Bugner, Dokes, Folley, Machen, Mercer, Page, Shavers, Thomas, Weaver
Level 6 – Bruno, Coetzee, Douglas, Johansson, W. Klitschko, V. Klitschko, Loughran, McCall, Ray, Tate
Level 7 – Bivins, Bonavena, Burns, Gains, Godfrey, Harold Johnson, Miske, Moore, Moorer, Schaaf
Level 8 – Braddock, Byrd, Carnera, Hart, Ruddock, Tom Sharkey, Snipes, Willard, Carl Williams, Cleveland Williams
Level 9 – Buddy Baer, Choynski, Chuvalo, Cooney, Greb, Goddard, Martin, Rahman, Tua, Uzcudun
Level 10 – Farr, Firpo, Fulton, LaStarza, Layne, Mildenberger, Ruhlin, Gunboat Smith, Leon Spinks, Stribling

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Cooney is rated properly. He wasn't better than Rahman. Agreed on Bonecrusher, he is greatly out of place in the top 40.

[Crease]

Level 2 – Bowe, Dempsey, Jeffries, Jeannette, Langford, McVey, Schmeling, Tyson, Tunney, Wills

Langford, Wills, Jeanette & McVey pose major difficulty in rating them because they weren't given a proper chance in testing themselves against the best opposition of their time.

[davie]

The Klitschko's are level 6 ?

Agreed, that's a bit high.

Level 4 – Ellis, Lyle, Quarry, James Smith, Michael Spinks, Ernie Terrell, Tubbs, Tucker, Witherspoon, Young
Level -5 Berbick, Bugner, Dokes, Folley, Machen, Mercer, Page, Shavers, Thomas, Weaver
Level 6 – W. Klitschko, V. Klitschko,

Many of the names in level 4 and 5 (and indeed the other names who shared tier 6) were challengers and nearly men.
They may have been nearly men in a stronger era, but to have them levels above dominant long reigning champions is beyond a joke.
In terms of acheivment they are miles behind the Klitschkos and even in terms of talent, there are a few in that list that would have been knocked out or dominated by either brother.

Even talking about Langford, Wills, Jeanette & McVey, they are at level 2.
Of course there is the difficulty in ranking them and we'll unfortunately never know how they would have ranked, given the opportunity to fight for a title, but having them 4 level above guys that legitimately ruled the division for over a decade is a tad extreme

[SaadOffTheDeck]

The Klitschko's are level 6 ?

Agreed, that's a bit high.

Level 4 – Ellis, Lyle, Quarry, James Smith, Michael Spinks, Ernie Terrell, Tubbs, Tucker, Witherspoon, Young
Level -5 Berbick, Bugner, Dokes, Folley, Machen, Mercer, Page, Shavers, Thomas, Weaver
Level 6 – W. Klitschko, V. Klitschko,

Many of the names in level 4 and 5 (and indeed the other names who shared tier 6) were challengers and nearly men.
They may have been nearly men in a stronger era, but to have them levels above dominant long reigning champions is beyond a joke.
In terms of acheivment they are miles behind the Klitschkos and even in terms of talent, there are a few in that list that would have been knocked out or dominated by either brother.

Even talking about Langford, Wills, Jeanette & McVey, they are at level 2.
Of course there is the difficulty in ranking them and we'll unfortunately never know how they would have ranked, given the opportunity to fight for a title, but having them 4 level above guys that legitimately ruled the division for over a decade is a tad extreme

I don't rate fighters on whom I think would win but I would certainly pick the brothers to beat many more accomplished fighters. Vitali's accomplishments are pretty nonexistent. I can't see any case for him in the top 40, Wlad was a long time champion so you have more leeway with him. He also was soundly defeated by 4 guys that can't sniff the names you have above them.

[davie]

If we don't go on who would win (ability) we have to rank them on achievement.
What did Michael Dokes, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen & Greg Page achieve to go above Wladimir Klitschko's ten year reign as undisputed world champion, who beat the best available in his era. (let not have the "he never fought his brother" chat)

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If we don't go on who would win (ability) we have to rank them on achievement.
What did Michael Dokes, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen & Greg Page achieve to go above Wladimir Klitschko's ten year reign as undisputed world champion, who beat the best available in his era. (let not have the "he never fought his brother" chat)

I would have never expected him to fight his brother and achievement is exactly what I look at.I don't rate Omar Narvaez highly at Flyweight either. Those guys beat better fighters than Wlad did, though I certainly wouldn't call any of them as definitively above him. I'd rate him over Page. Haye is really the only name on his resume that resonates with me. If he hadn't lost to the lesser guys than the he beat everyone in front of him argument would carry more weight.

If we're going to hypothetically pick fights, I'd give him zero chance of lasting 3 rounds with Shavers.

[Ambling Alp II]

All of these guys had their negatives. Here is why I rated Dokes, Machen, folley, and Page where I did:

Michael Dokes- beat Weaver. He gave a prime Holyfield a tough fight. also beat several not great but decent fighters.

Zora Folley- Beat Machen, Chuvalo, and Bonavena. Also had nice wins over Valdes, Cooper, DeJohn, Cleroux, and Jones.

Eddie Machen- Beat Quarry, gave a prime Liston a tough fight. Had a draw with Folley. Also had nice wins over Jones, DeJohn, Valdes, and Jackson.

Greg Page - Beat Coeztee and Renaldo Snipes.

Wladimir Kliyschko - beat Chris Byrd. Nobody else in the top 100.
Vitaly Klitschko- No wins over anyone in the Top 100.

Langford, Jeannette, Wills and McVey were all great fighters. If mickey mouse title belts mean something to you, then count the World Colored Heavyweight title. They each won that. They have to be at least level 3.

[stevedoc]

i can't see how anyone can have tucker ,tubbs and smith above the klitschko's ....

[Kalan]

i can't see how anyone can have tucker ,tubbs and smith above the klitschko's ....

Haters can.., They'll rank your grandmother ahead of the Klitschko's

[DaveyMac]

Just starting with group one, I can't see Liston in it. Harry Wills I could see in it, but not Liston. Not sure how Liston can be seen as better than Tyson, no way better than Wills, not sure I'd put him ahead of Dempsey or Bowe even.

As fearsome as he was seen I just don't see him as a pantheon guy like the others in that division.

Harry Wills, however, was the most underrated HW that ever lived.

[Ambling Alp II]

I do have Wills in Level 2, which means he is the Top 20. I have never seen anyone rate him in the top 10. However, you say he is underrated. I guess I would have to hear why. He seems to be very close to Langford, Jeannette and McVey. He was younger than them but since their careers overlapped the fights between them are important until they started getting old.

As for Liston, he has wins over Patterson, Machen, Folley and Williams who are all in the Top 100. Also had wins over people like DeJohn and Valdes. I do think he is borderline being Level 1, but he has to be in at least Level 2.

[Ambling Alp II]

i can't see how anyone can have tucker ,tubbs and smith above the klitschko's ....

Ok, I will explain.

Tony Tubbs has beat Greg Page and Smith. He barely lost ot to Tim Witherspoon and Riddick Bowe.

Tony Tucker beat Buster Douglas and Oliver McCall. With an injured hand he gave a prime Mike Tyson a tough fight. When he was past it, he went the distance with Lennox Lewis. (Vitaly Klitschko could only last 6 rounds against an obese Lennox Lewis)

Bonecrusher Smith -Knocked out Witherspoon and Bruno.

To sum it up, Tubbs, Tucker, and smith actually have multiple wins over people that were, you know, good.

[stevedoc]

i can't see how anyone can have tucker ,tubbs and smith above the klitschko's ....

Ok, I will explain.

Tony Tubbs has beat Greg Page and Smith. He barely lost ot to Tim Witherspoon and Riddick Bowe.

Tony Tucker beat Buster Douglas and Oliver McCall. With an injured hand he gave a prime Mike Tyson a tough fight. When he was past it, he went the distance with Lennox Lewis. (Vitaly Klitschko could only last 6 rounds against an obese Lennox Lewis)

Bonecrusher Smith -Knocked out Witherspoon and Bruno.

To sum it up, Tubbs, Tucker, and smith actually have multiple wins over people that were, you know, good.

witherspoon took a dive vs smith and to say smith is better than wlad or vitali because he ko's bruno is a long stretch , tubbs was blasted out by tyson and was among a bunch of fighters that was considered very average at the time but now for some reason you seem to think they were great fighters .
tucker was a ok paper champ but to use him beating oliver mcCall as why he is better doesn't hold mcCall was beat by bruno . none of those 3 would have a better than a 5-1 chance against either wlad or vitali ,you know

[SaadOffTheDeck]

McCall should be favored against Wlad.

[pound per pound]

Thought this would be fun.

Did a list of the 100, with 10 Level of 10 fighters in each level.

Obviously some guys that could go up or one down a level. Level 9 and 10 could easily be replaced by some guys who just missed it.

Look forward to some words of wisdom.
Thought if we discussed some guys other than the usual Top 10 or so.

Level 1 – Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, Jack Johnson, Lewis, Liston, Louis, Marciano
Level 2 – Bowe, Dempsey, Jeffries, Jeannette, Langford, McVey, Schmeling, Tyson, Tunney, Wills
Level 3 – Max Baer, Charles, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jackson, Norton, Patterson, Jack Sharkey, Sullivan, Walcott
Level 4 – Ellis, Lyle, Quarry, James Smith, Michael Spinks, Ernie Terrell, Tubbs, Tucker, Witherspoon, Young
Level -5 Berbick, Bugner, Dokes, Folley, Machen, Mercer, Page, Shavers, Thomas, Weaver
Level 6 – Bruno, Coetzee, Douglas, Johansson, W. Klitschko, V. Klitschko, Loughran, McCall, Ray, Tate
Level 7 – Bivins, Bonavena, Burns, Gains, Godfrey, Harold Johnson, Miske, Moore, Moorer, Schaaf
Level 8 – Braddock, Byrd, Carnera, Hart, Ruddock, Tom Sharkey, Snipes, Willard, Carl Williams, Cleveland Williams
Level 9 – Buddy Baer, Choynski, Chuvalo, Cooney, Greb, Goddard, Martin, Rahman, Tua, Uzcudun
Level 10 – Farr, Firpo, Fulton, LaStarza, Layne, Mildenberger, Ruhlin, Gunboat Smith, Leon Spinks, Stribling

This is a mess. Are you saying Frazier is #2 of all time? Jeannette and McVey, level 2? Klitschko's level 6?

[Ambling Alp II]

Frazier is Level 1. There is 10 fighters in level 1. This means that Frazier is one of the Top 10 heavyweights of all time. (His name comes second because it's in alphabetical order within the level)

Yes, I have Jeannette and McVey at level two. (which means they are in the Top 20) They were almost as good as Wills and Langford who are also in Level 2. They certainly could be moved down to Level 3, but no lower than that.

Yes the Klitschkos are in level 6.

[Ambling Alp II]

i can't see how anyone can have tucker ,tubbs and smith above the klitschko's ....

Ok, I will explain.

Tony Tubbs has beat Greg Page and Smith. He barely lost ot to Tim Witherspoon and Riddick Bowe.

Tony Tucker beat Buster Douglas and Oliver McCall. With an injured hand he gave a prime Mike Tyson a tough fight. When he was past it, he went the distance with Lennox Lewis. (Vitaly Klitschko could only last 6 rounds against an obese Lennox Lewis)

Bonecrusher Smith -Knocked out Witherspoon and Bruno.

To sum it up, Tubbs, Tucker, and smith actually have multiple wins over people that were, you know, good.

witherspoon took a dive vs smith and to say smith is better than wlad or vitali because he ko's bruno is a long stretch , tubbs was blasted out by tyson and was among a bunch of fighters that was considered very average at the time but now for some reason you seem to think they were great fighters .
tucker was a ok paper champ but to use him beating oliver mcCall as why he is better doesn't hold mcCall was beat by bruno . none of those 3 would have a better than a 5-1 chance against either wlad or vitali ,you know

I don't believe at all that Witherspoon took a dive against Smith.

Not a stretch at all to point out Smith's two wins as evidence as to how good he was. The best fighters that you have beat has to a major factor in rating people.

With the Klitschkos, it always seems to be how they would have beaten so and so or how big they were. How about some evidence based on who they actually beat?

Yes Tubbs was blasted out by Tyson. Is that as bad as getting blown out by Corrie Sanders, LaMon Brewster, Ross Purrity, an obese Lennox Lewis or Chris Byrd? I don't think so. Tubbs was considered average? I don't recall that. He certainly was not a legend or anything like that. However, if he was average, he would not have beat Page and Smith and given Witherspoon and Bowe so much trouble.

Tubbs, Smith, and McCall actually beat people worth mentioning.

[stevedoc]

Ok, I will explain.

Tony Tubbs has beat Greg Page and Smith. He barely lost ot to Tim Witherspoon and Riddick Bowe.

Tony Tucker beat Buster Douglas and Oliver McCall. With an injured hand he gave a prime Mike Tyson a tough fight. When he was past it, he went the distance with Lennox Lewis. (Vitaly Klitschko could only last 6 rounds against an obese Lennox Lewis)

Bonecrusher Smith -Knocked out Witherspoon and Bruno.

To sum it up, Tubbs, Tucker, and smith actually have multiple wins over people that were, you know, good.

witherspoon took a dive vs smith and to say smith is better than wlad or vitali because he ko's bruno is a long stretch , tubbs was blasted out by tyson and was among a bunch of fighters that was considered very average at the time but now for some reason you seem to think they were great fighters .
tucker was a ok paper champ but to use him beating oliver mcCall as why he is better doesn't hold mcCall was beat by bruno . none of those 3 would have a better than a 5-1 chance against either wlad or vitali ,you know

I don't believe at all that Witherspoon took a dive against Smith.

Not a stretch at all to point out Smith's two wins as evidence as to how good he was. The best fighters that you have beat has to a major factor in rating people.

With the Klitschkos, it always seems to be how they would have beaten so and so or how big they were. How about some evidence based on who they actually beat?

Yes Tubbs was blasted out by Tyson. Is that as bad as getting blown out by Corrie Sanders, LaMon Brewster, Ross Purrity, an obese Lennox Lewis or Chris Byrd? I don't think so. Tubbs was considered average? I don't recall that. He certainly was not a legend or anything like that. However, if he was average, he would not have beat Page and Smith and given Witherspoon and Bowe so much trouble.

Tubbs, Smith, and McCall actually beat people worth mentioning.

So I'm a little confused Lennox got blasted not once but twice by mcall and Rahman 2 average fighters but you you have him as top level yet with wlad who had the same thing but then went 10 years unbeaten is useless because of it? Very strange. As for Tim well he told me himself he took a dive to get away from don king I can't say for 100% that's true but why would he lie and the few times I went out with Tim one thing about him was he was very honest.

[Ambling Alp II]

Sorry that you are confused. Yes Lewis lost to two fighters that weren't great; however Rahman and McCall were better than Sanders and Brewster. Klitschko also got stopped by Ross Purrity, who was nothing more than a journeyman. Lewis never lost to anyone like that.

More importantly, look at the wins. Klitschko's win over Byrd is by far his best. Compared to Lewis it is a joke. Lewis beat several fighters in the Top 100.
Who you beat is is a much stronger indication of how good you are than how many people with a pulse that you beat.

As for Witherspoon, I never believe a fix story unless I have video proof. It obviously makes Witherspoon look better if people think it was a fix and he did not really get knocked out.

[keithmoonhangover]

Sorry that you are confused. Yes Lewis lost to two fighters that weren't great; however Rahman and McCall were better than Sanders and Brewster. Klitschko also got stopped by Ross Purrity, who was nothing more than a journeyman. Lewis never lost to anyone like that.

More importantly, look at the wins. Klitschko's win over Byrd is by far his best. Compared to Lewis it is a joke. Lewis beat several fighters in the Top 100.
Who you beat is is a much stronger indication of how good you are than how many people with a pulse that you beat.

As for Witherspoon, I never believe a fix story unless I have video proof. It obviously makes Witherspoon look better if people think it was a fix and he did not really get knocked out.

Witherspoon says himself that he didn't take a dive. He was supposed to fight Tubbs, but he pulled out and Smith was the replacement. He was advised by his lawyer not to take the fight, but in the end he took the fight, wasn't mentally and got stopped. If Witherspoon had won, he would have fought Tyson, but he lost and saved himself a beating.