"ducking" other fighters

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 21 Feb 2006, 18:17

a fight sometimes gets accused of ducking another fighter, but really sometimes its just the handlers like with damato.

my question is IN YOUR OPINION did any of the following fighters handlers duck any fighters? if so, who were they and why did they duck them?

larry holmes

rocky marciano

joe louis

joe frazier

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 21 Feb 2006, 21:33

Holmes:

Holmes didn't need to duck anybody. He fought who was available. Holmes problem was, like Lennox Lewis, he had an ego so damn big. Sure he knew that he wouldn't have to do hardly anything in the ring and win, but he believed most people were beneath him. Holmes became about money. He didn't unify the titles because he didn't want to face Gerrie Coetzee in South Africa, he didn't want to face Greg Page either---opting to face Marvis Frazier for easier money. Holmes in my mind could have unified the titles---he was just a greedy SOB. He didnt duck nobody.

Marciano:

"The Rock" had really nobody left to fight. Who else after Moore was there, but bums like Tommy Jackson? The Rock could have reigned as champion for many years I believe---hell after he even retired, he signed a contract to face Ingemar Johanson that is if Johanson could get passed Patterson in their rematch, which didn't happen. "The Rock" after he retired was offered huge sums of money from the Liston and Patterson camps to face their fighters---but of course, Marciano became about money as well, and nobody could match the Rock's price. If anything in his active career as a boxer---it wasn't that the Rock ducked people, if anything it was Al Weil who made him take more lucrative fights, such as the rematches with Walcott and Charles.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 21 Feb 2006, 21:43

Joe Louis:

Let's face it...the era Louis reigned over was pretty dry talent-wise. Of his 25 title defenses only a handful were actual threats to Louis. He didn't duck Walcott or even Conn when they all but had him whipped in their first matches---Louis was murder in rematches---just ask Buddy Baer and Max Schemling. Who really was out there for Louis to duck? Now as far as when he was starting out---yes former Heavyweight champion Jack Johnson challenged Joe Louis (no I aint making this up) but the Louis camp (mainly Jack Blackburn) told Johnson to go to hell. Other than that who did Louis duck? Who was dangerous enough for the Brown Bomber to duck?

Joe Frazier:

Frazier myself didn't duck nobody. He faced Ali, Foreman, Ellis, Quarry, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Bugner, Mathis---he damn near faced them all. If anything maybe, Frazier went for more bigger money making rematches with his former foes, than face other contenders who were out there---but think about it, who hasn't?

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 22 Feb 2006, 14:42

I wouldn't say any of them ducked anyone who had a serious chance of beating them.
I suppose Louis could have fought someone like Elmer Ray or Tiger Jack Fox, but he would have beaten them.
Marciano could have fought Valdes, but he would have beaten him.
Holmes could have fought Page or Dokes, but he beat enough fighters of that level.
Frazier fought a lot of tough opponents. Norton is the only fighter I would have liked to have seen him fight that he didn't; and he probably would have beaten Norton.

If the the talent level is deep, you just can't fight everyone.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 Feb 2006, 15:25

Norton and Frazier were friends and would not have considered fighting.

As we have seen with Byrd and a few of his friends, I think avoiding was a wise idea. I'd hate to have started the "pitty pat" sweepstakes that long ago.

Nile4000 · Post by **Nile4000** » 25 Feb 2006, 13:35

Larry Holmes ducked Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 25 Feb 2006, 16:03

Nile4000 wrote:Larry Holmes ducked Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas.

Ducked? Seriously? Or maybe just didn't get around to it.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 25 Feb 2006, 18:04

BoxBuzz wrote:
Nile4000 wrote:Larry Holmes ducked Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas.
Ducked? Seriously? Or maybe just didn't get around to it.

Na, he never ducked them. They just lost at the wrong time. Page did it repeatedly.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 25 Feb 2006, 18:10

Yep if you were around at that time you knew there was no ducking going on. And if you weren't around you can just read the timelines of the fighters schedules you'll see that it was just the way the cookie crumbles in terms of why those guys didnt make the cut at the critical times.

The Scranton Assassin · Post by **The Scranton Assassin** » 26 Feb 2006, 06:58

BoxBuzz wrote:
Nile4000 wrote:Larry Holmes ducked Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas.
Ducked? Seriously? Or maybe just didn't get around to it.

He also ducked Tim Witherspoon after they fought the first time Holmes wouldn't get in there again. I still say Witherspoon won that fight.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 26 Feb 2006, 14:26

The Scranton Assassin wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:
Nile4000 wrote:Larry Holmes ducked Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas.
Ducked? Seriously? Or maybe just didn't get around to it.
He also ducked Tim Witherspoon after they fought the first time Holmes wouldn't get in there again. I still say Witherspoon won that fight.

also? That implies you believe he ducked Page. If you were around at the time you'd know Page was his own worst enemy by losing just when he was on the point of getting a fight with Holmes. Or do you think differently? Please explain.

Nile4000 · Post by **Nile4000** » 26 Feb 2006, 14:37

Collins2000 wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:
Nile4000 wrote:Larry Holmes ducked Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas.
Ducked? Seriously? Or maybe just didn't get around to it.
Na, he never ducked them. They just lost at the wrong time. Page did it repeatedly.

When they were seriously talking about the matchup in late '83, Page was THE #1 contender, and Holmes didn't fight him.If that's not ducking, I don't know what is.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 26 Feb 2006, 16:18

Page is the guy you might be able to make the best case for, but Page had a loss at a critical juncture that probably had more to do with that outcome, its the more "reality" based reason in my book. To add to the controversy Page would have posed one of the more difficult nuts to crack for Larry.

But I still think it was just the way the cookie crumbled rather than an "avoidance conspiracy".

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 26 Feb 2006, 22:07

Nile4000 wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote: Ducked? Seriously? Or maybe just didn't get around to it.
Na, he never ducked them. They just lost at the wrong time. Page did it repeatedly.
When they were seriously talking about the matchup in late '83, Page was THE #1 contender, and Holmes didn't fight him.If that's not ducking, I don't know what is.

Maybe Page was the WBC #1 contender for a few months based on his victory over the moderate Renaldo Snipes.

However, he wasn't exactly kicking the door down. I don't recall any great demand for a Holmes - Page fight at the time. People had seen Page's limitation when he fought and lost to Berbick the year before.

If Page had then defeated Witherspoon, he would have cemented a spot. As it was, he lost.

WBC #1 contenders come and go, especially in the 80's with the WBA title continually changing hands thus throwing fighters in and out of the mix with the WBC policy of not ranking the WBA champ and, I believe, anyone scheduled to fight for it.

In fact, the WBC rankings are a pile of shite and always have been. Here's their current offering of top 5 contenders at heavyweight.
1. Oleg Maskaev
2. James Toney
3. Oliver McCall
4. Samuel Peter
5. Ray Austin

How fekkin insane is that?

Anyway Holmes fought enough fighters of Page's calibre to suggest he had no reason to duck Greg.

Page seems a nice guy and I wish him well in his current crisis but the implication that Holmes 'ducked' him is a myth IMO.

Nile4000 · Post by **Nile4000** » 27 Feb 2006, 15:02

you make some valid points, but to fight Marvis Frazier, and especially, Scott Frank, over Page makes no sense.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 27 Feb 2006, 18:42

Nile4000 wrote:you make some valid points, but to fight Marvis Frazier, and especially, Scott Frank, over Page makes no sense.

Let me say first off, Scott Frank should never have got a sniff at a title shot.

Marvis Frazier wasn't too bad on paper going into the bout. He'd beaten a few fringe contenders. With hindsight it was man against boy stuff.

Holmes had just had a couple of big fights though.

I'd rather have seen him fight Page than the 2 you mention. But Holmes wasn't ducking him IMO.

After Holmes got past those 2 patsies and was looking for a big money fight, Page was chasing the WBA title and thus, effectively out of the running due to the WBC policy of not rating WBA champs and anyone scheduled to fight for the WBA title.