Of these, who was the best heavyweight?

[allInmoderationAIM]

It's either Holmes or lewis, no logical argument can be made for anyone else in terms of resume. H2h is a different story.[/quote]
Someone wrote. George Foreman isn't a logical argument?? And Rocky 49-0, 43 KO's. Wow....I got a lot to learn!

[Kalan]

Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson, and Liston all suffered big upsets... Marciano never fought a real Heavyweight.

\


Marciano fans are going to be provoked. The last time someone used his name in vain, we never heard the end of it. Can't you find at least one real Heavyweight on his opponent list?
and retract that statement? Just to appease them? I don't want to have to pick up all the cans and bottles that are going to be tossed about when they go into their drunken rage.

I don't think I'll have to worry about it... Everybody knows Marciano weighed 184 with shoes on for Walcott twice... Rocky never fought ANY World Title fight with an opponent who weighed 200 pounds except for super fat Don Cockell -- who weighed 205 pounds of mostly blubber.. Cockell fought most of his career fights as a Middleweight and Light Heavyweight.. As a Light Heavyweight he was knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin... Cockell was knocked out by feather-punching Jimmy Slade in a Light Heavyweight fight.. Slade had a KO ratio of 17% and was a noted light hitter, but he knocked Cockell down 5 times and finished him off in 4 rounds... People thought Rocky would knock Cockell out in half a round -- instead it took 9 rounds of waling on the tub of lard.

[allInmoderationAIM]

Marciano fans are going to be provoked.... I don't want to have to pick up all the cans and bottles that are going to be tossed about when they go into their drunken rage.

I don't think I'll have to worry about it... Everybody knows Marciano weighed 184 with shoes on for Walcott twice... Rocky never fought ANY World Title fight with an opponent who weighed 200 pounds except for super fat Don Cockell -- who weighed 205 pounds of mostly blubber.. Cockell fought most of his career fights as a Middleweight and Light Heavyweight.. As a Light Heavyweight he was knocked out by Middleweight Randy Turpin... Cockell was knocked out by feather-punching Jimmy Slade in a Light Heavyweight fight.. Slade had a KO ratio of 17% and was a noted light hitter, but he knocked Cockell down 5 times and finished him off in 4 rounds... People thought Rocky would knock Cockell out in half a round -- instead it took 9 rounds of waling on the tub of lard.

Not checking weights take your word for that one, today! This is made out to sound "bad as possible." 1) Randy Turpin was m + 2 1/2 lbs. & his record was fantastic at the time. O.K! 2) Vs Jimmy Slade, "The Spoiler". That 17% you quote was at conclusion of his career. He had under 1/2 as many fights when he fought Don Cockell and had "respectable" power early on. Yes he went thru a stage when he wasn't stopping anyone. Slade has formidable career.
You know, time line means a lot. Cockell beat Harry Mathews three times leading to Marciano. Mathews 86-5-6 on start of two/three. He beat Roland LaStarza when LaStarza was 53-4-0. He even TKO'd Tommy Farr, in 1953. How many times Tommy Farr even been stopped? Not to much!
These things happen in Sport such as Boxing!

[Kalan]

Matthews and LaStarza had the 2 most puffed up records of all time.. LaStarza refused to fight black contenders..

Turpin weighed 162.5 when he KO'd Cockell??? ... Wow, that's really big... Turpin was a bit chinny himself.

[allInmoderationAIM]

I suppose. Turpin had 75 bouts career. A Jean Stock 26-3-2 first defeat within the distance. Then he won 22 straight included Dec. vs SRR when SRR was 128-1-2. Second "stop" loss of course...Ray Rob. Then in '54 he lost a TKO-1 vs Tiberto Mitri Euro-Title. Then in 1955 he lost stop vs Gordon Wallace. 2nd before the end and the real end he lost KO-2 vs Yolande Pompey (1958). His last two came 1963, 64.
I guess it's the name of the game to be "critic".
I never heard that about LaStarza before (either idea!). More I can see it at Matthews. [GCooney style tailoring!]
I'll keep looking but, later!

[Kalan]

It not being a critic... It's taking an honest look at the guys who Marciano fought---and rating him as a Heavyweight Boxer on his skills... I'm not going to put Marciano in with Liston, Tyson, Foreman, Lewis, Vitali Klitschko, Wladimir Klitschko, Joshua, Wilder, Ortiz, or somebody like Jack Johnson.. If those guys are at their best Rocky is getting slaughtered.

You could match Rocky up with Holmes, Ali, and possibly Frazier.. Against Patterson and Johansson he'd be favored.. You could put him in with a prime Joe Louis who wasn't that big and strong.. A prime Jack Dempsey maybe.. And he might catch come of those guys with a shot and stop them, but I would make him an underdog to most of those guys.. But it would be Foreman-Frazier if Rocky fought the biggest, strongest and hardest punching ATG Heavyweight Champs.. I know Frazier was favored to beat Foreman.. That's because people don't understand style dynamics.

Once Jack Dempsey was asked what Heavyweight Champion would give him the most trouble... He said "Oh Boy...You mean besides Tunney??? ... Probably Jim Jeffries. It was his style and the fact you couldn't hurt him. He was too strong for me and would probably knock my chin off."

[BoxBuzz]

Kalan,

I believe George Foreman said he believed at their best Lennox could beat him.

Joe Louis said that at his best Rocky could beat him. But he believed he could beat Muhammad.


I think you agree with George, and split 50/50 with Joe's self assessment correct?


You think Joe could beat them both Correct?



Also, listen to Evander here......cue it up to the 7:45 minute mark to get his take on Georges, Mike's and David's power.
It's very interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8uESHHCgGw

[keithmoonhangover]

Kalan,

I believe George Foreman said he believed at their best Lennox could beat him.

Joe Louis said that at his best Rocky could beat him. But he believed he could beat Muhammad.


I think you agree with George, and split 50/50 with Joe's self assessment correct?


You think Joe could beat them both Correct?



Also, listen to Evander here......cue it up to the 7:45 minute mark to get his take on Georges, Mike's and David's power.
It's very interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8uESHHCgGw

Ali said Lewis was 'probably the best ever'.

[Keko]

Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali

[jbizzle20]

Maybe because Holyfield lost his trilogy with the pathetic, slop-assed punching bag Bowe... Bowe got banged around by the ridiculously clumsy oaf Golota - and Bowe ducked almost all of the best fighters of his day... Lewis lost to Rahman and McCall because he wasn't paying attention for 2 seconds out of his whole career... He won the rematches easily so it means he could have easily won every fight he ever fought if he just paid attention a little better.. Michael Moorer did the same thing.. He decided to go AWOL mentally during the 10th round during a fight he was winning with ease... It happens.

Frazier didn't just lose to Foreman or have a 1-second slip-up.. He fought worse than a 4-round fighter and looked like a punching bag with ears.

Yes it happens that a fighter gets knocked out by an inferior opponent close to your prime.

However, it never happened to Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Marciano, Holyfield, or Liston.
It only happened to Dempsey and Tyson once.
Lewis is the only one on the list that it happened to twice. Paying attention is a rahter important part of boxing.

Holyfield's decision loss to Riddick Bowe in a great fight is no where near as embarrassing as get knocked out by Hasim Rahman.

I agree that you can make an argument for Lewis. However, this is far from cut and dry.
Also don't think the "he beat everyone he fought" argument means much for three main reasons:

1. If you think that is such a big deal, Marciano better be right up there on your list.
2. You can't just dismiss the losses just because he won the rematches. The losses happened.
3. He should not have got the decision against Ray Mercer. That should not be swept under the rug.

Foreman, Johnson, Frazier, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson, and Liston all suffered big upsets... Marciano never fought a real Heavyweight.

Holyfield's loss to Michael Moorer was just as bad or worse than getting beaten by Rahman... Lewis really beat Mercer... Lewis's contemporaries ducked him... Bowe never fought him... Holyfield avoided him for over 10 years... Tyson avoided Lewis for over 10 years... His record against Bowe, Mercer, Tyson, and Holyfield is 4-0

Wow Kalan, you're actually making some great points in this thread.

[pedrog60]

A lot of brainwashed BS opinions here.

Voting for Marciano but not for Frazier.

Voting for Dempsey but not for Holyfield.

That just BShyt. Both Frazier and Holyfield won in every single departmen to those guys. Frazier has every advantage there is over Rocky, and Holyfield fought in a much, much competitive era than Dempsey, and woulve taken him out in 4 rounds or less.

So many nostalgist here...

[Cap]

...of those 10 the best was obviously the one who never lost. Rocky Marciano. You left out Jim Jeffries who was a tough son-of-a-gun. I'd match him against most of the others. Styles make fights so just because Norton beat Ali and Foreman demolished Norton doesn't mean that Foreman will beat Ali. Canada's Lennox Lewis was head and shoulders above Holmes. Holmes got blasted out by Tyson and Marciano and Dempsey were taller than Mike, so I'm seeing Rocky and Jack knocking out Holmes in like three rounds. No problem. Jeffries puts him out in 5 or 6.

If you're talking who beats who, then you have a serious problem as most are dead. You'll never know for sure because in boxing anything can happen. Jimmy Young, a powder-puff puncher, whipped George Foreman the Beast.

Put all the names in a hat and toss it into the air. Good a method as any.

[Kalan]

Time WILL tell for you guys... For me he already tops the list.

[Kalan]

AJ that is

[Kalan]

...of those 10 the best was obviously the one who never lost. Rocky Marciano. You left out Jim Jeffries who was a tough son-of-a-gun. I'd match him against most of the others. Styles make fights so just because Norton beat Ali and Foreman demolished Norton doesn't mean that Foreman will beat Ali. Canada's Lennox Lewis was head and shoulders above Holmes. Holmes got blasted out by Tyson and Marciano and Dempsey were taller than Mike, so I'm seeing Rocky and Jack knocking out Holmes in like three rounds. No problem. Jeffries puts him out in 5 or 6.

If you're talking who beats who, then you have a serious problem as most are dead. You'll never know for sure because in boxing anything can happen. Jimmy Young, a powder-puff puncher, whipped George Foreman the Beast.

Put all the names in a hat and toss it into the air. Good a method as any.

Holmes was blasted out by Tyson when he was 38 and had been out of action for 2 years... Marciano wasn't taller than Tyson and would give up 35 pounds to Iron Mike... Tyson blasted out the best LHW in Fistic History (Michael Spinks) in 90 seconds.. Spinks was the reigning World Heavyweight Champion making his 3rd defense of the LINEAL TITLE... Marciano struggled with LHW's because he was barely bigger than those guys... Tyson blew them away because he was WAY bigger... Would Jack Dempsey beat Larry Holmes??? ... Not the version who fought Gene Tunney or Tommy Gibbons.

[allInmoderationAIM]

...of those 10 the best was obviously the one who never lost. Rocky Marciano. You left out Jim Jeffries who was a tough son-of-a-gun. I'd match him against most of the others. Styles make fights so just because Norton beat Ali and Foreman demolished Norton doesn't mean that Foreman will beat Ali. Canada's Lennox Lewis was head and shoulders above Holmes. Holmes got blasted out by Tyson and Marciano and Dempsey were taller than Mike, so I'm seeing Rocky and Jack knocking out Holmes in like three rounds. No problem. Jeffries puts him out in 5 or 6.

If you're talking who beats who, then you have a serious problem as most are dead. You'll never know for sure because in boxing anything can happen. Jimmy Young, a powder-puff puncher, whipped George Foreman the Beast.

Put all the names in a hat and toss it into the air. Good a method as any.

Cap, you may be a editor in Matt & Ric's company but....you only understand HALF of our Sport obviously.
You're right WE CAN'T KNOW but, rating Lennox above Holmes certainly; how you rate the washed out Holmes says it right there you are a housewife, no boxing expert.
We could be friendship yet but, you do not know boxing like how you express it that you think you do know boxing.

[allInmoderationAIM]

It not being a critic... It's taking an honest look at the guys who Marciano fought---and rating him as a Heavyweight Boxer on his skills... I'm not going to put Marciano in with Liston, Tyson, Foreman, Lewis, Vitali Klitschko, Wladimir Klitschko, Joshua, Wilder, Ortiz, or somebody like Jack Johnson.. If those guys are at their best Rocky is getting slaughtered.

You could match Rocky up with Holmes, Ali, and possibly Frazier.. Against Patterson and Johansson he'd be favored.. You could put him in with a prime Joe Louis who wasn't that big and strong.. A prime Jack Dempsey maybe.. And he might catch come of those guys with a shot and stop them, but I would make him an underdog to most of those guys.. But it would be Foreman-Frazier if Rocky fought the biggest, strongest and hardest punching ATG Heavyweight Champs.. I know Frazier was favored to beat Foreman.. That's because people don't understand style dynamics.

Once Jack Dempsey was asked what Heavyweight Champion would give him the most trouble... He said "Oh Boy...You mean besides Tunney??? ... Probably Jim Jeffries. It was his style and the fact you couldn't hurt him. He was too strong for me and would probably knock my chin off."

So...you are saying that Rocky Marciano could be matched V Holmes, Ali, possibly Frazier. But he couldn't be matched ("w/hope!") v. Liston, Tyson, Foreman, Lewis, Vit. nor Wlad . Nor Joshua nor Ortiz? [you mentioned Johannson/ Patterson mere commercial break!]
One - WAIT until boxer retired five years before bringing name into all time.
Two - these are mood statements at best. Ali topped two on your list.
And, whatever a boxer say, does not mean it will go down that way. Ali probably only wish to show another side of his humanity.

[Kalan]

Ali topped two on your list

Style dynamics dude... Norton shattered Ali jaw and beat the crap out of him... Foreman crushed Norton like a roach.

Marciano never fought anyone like Foreman or it would have been Foreman-Frazier all over again.

[allInmoderationAIM]

Ali topped two on your list

Style dynamics dude... Norton shattered Ali jaw and beat the crap out of him... Foreman crushed Norton like a roach.

Marciano never fought anyone like Foreman or it would have been Foreman-Frazier all over again.

Kalen, it's more than that flatly. Lot of "Ring scientists". Hard to measure the human WILL. As smartly as you hypothesize about it all....yet you can't put your finger on the reality. Someone else have a completely different viewpoint.
The only thing we can not argue is that ALI, FOREMAN, MARCIANO, WALCOTT they are relatively in the same ball park talent wise.
Yoo: Give me your 1-2-3 on LYLE-SHAVERS-NORTON. Only one correct answer on that one. Of course we are talking a.t. only!

[Kalan]

Ali topped two on your list

Style dynamics dude... Norton shattered Ali jaw and beat the crap out of him... Foreman crushed Norton like a roach.

Marciano never fought anyone like Foreman or it would have been Foreman-Frazier all over again.

Kalen, it's more than that flatly. Lot of "Ring scientists". Hard to measure the human WILL. As smartly as you hypothesize about it all....yet you can't put your finger on the reality. Someone else have a completely different viewpoint.
The only thing we can not argue is that ALI, FOREMAN, MARCIANO, WALCOTT they are relatively in the same ball park talent wise.
Yoo: Give me your 1-2-3 on LYLE-SHAVERS-NORTON. Only one correct answer on that one. Of course we are talking a.t. only!

I can argue all day about Ali and Foreman being very much better than Walcott and Marciano.. First of all, they're so much bigger and stronger.

Walcott was 39 and had something like 16 losses and several KO losses...but he still beat Marciano for 12 rounds.. That shows you that Marciano fought in a super weak era and was very cleverly managed and matched.. Everybody has the same amount of WILL.. What are they going to use it for??? ... What people differ in is their size, strength, height, reach, speed, power, smarts, and athletic prowess.. WILL isn't going to help you if you jump off a cliff and try to fly.. You can only do what you're physically and mentally capable of doing.. and Joe Frazier wasn't capable of competing with George Foreman in a Boxing ring no matter how much WILL he had.. It's possible you can put your talents to greater use than somebody else -- but it's not going to make up for being 5'11 X 184 with a 67" reach if you're fighting somebody like Ali or Foreman.

[cfang]

Marciano used his size to his advantage. His whole style was based around that. So in effect facing bigger guys was better for him and he could get up close and punch upwards with those short arms and powerful legs. I see Rocky doing really well against big slower heavys of today. He'd get inside and he'd hurt them. His problem would be against faster heavys.

Style dynamics dude... Norton shattered Ali jaw and beat the crap out of him... Foreman crushed Norton like a roach.

Marciano never fought anyone like Foreman or it would have been Foreman-Frazier all over again.

Kalen, it's more than that flatly. Lot of "Ring scientists". Hard to measure the human WILL. As smartly as you hypothesize about it all....yet you can't put your finger on the reality. Someone else have a completely different viewpoint.
The only thing we can not argue is that ALI, FOREMAN, MARCIANO, WALCOTT they are relatively in the same ball park talent wise.
Yoo: Give me your 1-2-3 on LYLE-SHAVERS-NORTON. Only one correct answer on that one. Of course we are talking a.t. only!

I can argue all day about Ali and Foreman being very much better than Walcott and Marciano.. First of all, they're so much bigger and stronger.

Walcott was 39 and had something like 16 losses and several KO losses...but he still beat Marciano for 12 rounds.. That shows you that Marciano fought in a super weak era and was very cleverly managed and matched.. Everybody has the same amount of WILL.. What are they going to use it for??? ... What people differ in is their size, strength, height, reach, speed, power, smarts, and athletic prowess.. WILL isn't going to help you if you jump off a cliff and try to fly.. You can only do what you're physically and mentally capable of doing.. and Joe Frazier wasn't capable of competing with George Foreman in a Boxing ring no matter how much WILL he had.. It's possible you can put your talents to greater use than somebody else -- but it's not going to make up for being 5'11 X 184 with a 67" reach if you're fighting somebody like Ali or Foreman.

[allInmoderationAIM]

Kalan, Holyfield his entire legacy is built around his WILL practically. So...you see what Cfang says here. This argument could last 1000 years man. Walcott fights in a different era. Many more contests too!
You can't do it FIGHT w/o FIGHTING. And you can not figure out the puzzle. How do you explain Ross Purity KO'ing Wlad?
The best we can do is "pick rate" and....I like to push one "pick rating" I have a.t. that has only one answer to it. RATE 1-2-3 between LYLE SHAVERS & KEN NORTON.

[Kalan]

Kalan, Holyfield his entire legacy is built around his WILL practically. So...you see what Cfang says here. This argument could last 1000 years man. Walcott fights in a different era. Many more contests too!
You can't do it FIGHT w/o FIGHTING. And you can not figure out the puzzle. How do you explain Ross Purity KO'ing Wlad?
The best we can do is "pick rate" and....I like to push one "pick rating" I have a.t. that has only one answer to it. RATE 1-2-3 between LYLE SHAVERS & KEN NORTON.

Ross Puritty weighed 250 pounds and Wladimir had the flu before that fight... He came in at 224... If you check, Wlad never came within 10 pounds of being that light after that in his entire career... The referee didn't stop the fight... Waldimir was miles ahead on points and said he could feel Puritty's punches weakening because of the massive effort he was making for the KO.. Wlad was waiting for Puritty to peter out -- when his corner guy jumped into the ring and started walking towards the fighters.. Wladimir wasn't down, and said he wasn't in serious trouble, but the referee was forced to stop it at that time.

The Corrie Sanders fight was more problematic.. Sanders was hitting Wladimir with everything he threw.. Sanders was a tall southpaw who threw punches at unusual angles that ripped right through Wladimir's defense.. He hired Emmanuel Steward after that fight and he closed up the holes.. It took a couple years to get his new stance and footwork going, because it's hard to unlearn ingrained habits.

[Kalan]

For LYLE SHAVERS & KEN NORTON... I would rank them Lyle, Norton, and Shavers.

[Kalan]

Walcott fights in a different era. Many more contests too!

Not necessarily... Walcott was 51-18-2... He was retired when he was Wladimir's age.. WK is 64-4 a similar number of fights but many more title fights.. Walcott was 2-4 in World Title fights and he beat a guy (Charles) who beat him good their first 2 fights but was suffering from the early inroads of ALS in their last 2 fights.. That's a slow, creeping nerve disease that Stephan Hawkins has had for decades.. Eventually it kills you after 10, 20, or 30 years when you're so debilitated you can't move a muscle. You can't even breathe.