Referee's "on the books?"

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 16 Feb 2006, 17:27

Which Referee's where known to be "on the books" - paid to order...
top American, British...

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 17 Feb 2006, 14:45

jimglen - I guess I'm not certainhat you mean by "on the books" or paid to order.

Do you mean "on the take" as in paid off by someone to favor one fighter over the other?

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 18 Feb 2006, 05:17

Yes Ambling, thats exactly what I'm talking about. There must have been plenty of them and some well known 'dubious' decisions becauce of it I'm sure!

Any idea lads who some of these Ref's might have been?

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Feb 2006, 00:03

jimglen wrote:Yes Ambling, thats exactly what I'm talking about. There must have been plenty of them and some well known 'dubious' decisions becauce of it I'm sure!

Any idea lads who some of these Ref's might have been?

Hahahahahahahaahaahahaha, you love impugning people's integrity don't you Jimbo?

Hit me again with that theory you were spouting a few months back about how there was a conspiracy to deny world title shots to certain brits as our cousin's in the usa knew they'd win them all...

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 19 Feb 2006, 03:53

..referee zack clayton.....fourth walcott/charles fight. could be heard saying "come on, Pappy" (walcott)...and calling charles for low blows that clearly landed on the collar bone. (I am not kidding). fight was known to be fioxed against charles by two days before fight time. day after fight clayton was driving around philladelphia in a new cadillac. walter winchell said fight was a clear "whoopsy affair."

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 19 Feb 2006, 15:56

Thanks Jaclem, thats exactly what I'm talking about... there must be dozens/hundreds! In a post over at the CBZ one of the 'qualified' regulars "hinted" to a fight that was fixed in Chicago and that you never would believe it if he "revealed" who the fight was between!

Conspiracy wrong word, much too "grand", there NEVER was "A Conspiracy!" Boxing is FAMOUS for bullshit, politics and protection and doesn't require an all out massive conspiracy or series of events.

NO it olny needs decisions and negotiations between Promoters, Managers, 1 or 2 board members or officials on board and naturally the occasional REFEREE was "bought" into the mix!

Collins your refering to National Pride,
America wanted-it/kept-it American "IF" possible...
England - English as much as possible...
France was Famous for terrible decisions against foreigners namely Brits and TODAY GERMANY is seemingly 'misbehaving'.

Yours, Jim.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Feb 2006, 21:48

jimglen wrote:Thanks Jaclem, thats exactly what I'm talking about... there must be dozens/hundreds! In a post over at the CBZ one of the 'qualified' regulars "hinted" to a fight that was fixed in Chicago and that you never would believe it if he "revealed" who the fight was between!

Conspiracy wrong word, much too "grand", there NEVER was "A Conspiracy!" Boxing is FAMOUS for bullshit, politics and protection and doesn't require an all out massive conspiracy or series of events.

NO it olny needs decisions and negotiations between Promoters, Managers, 1 or 2 board members or officials on board and naturally the occasional REFEREE was "bought" into the mix!

Collins your refering to National Pride,
America wanted-it/kept-it American "IF" possible...
England - English as much as possible...
France was Famous for terrible decisions against foreigners namely Brits and TODAY GERMANY is seemingly 'misbehaving'.

Yours, Jim.

National pride? I think not, Jimbo. I'm referring to your theory that certain British fighters of the 30's and 40's were far better fighters than the blokes who are in the record books as being the champs in that era.

You hint that there was a collusion between the powers that be in American boxing at the time that denied title shots to any deserving Brit. You occasionally go further and claim that that had these Brits got a title shot then they would have dominated the inter-war period.

Another part of the story is that the Brits who did get shots are all supposed to have been robbed if the fight went the distance too.

And a legion of crooked refs is just another plank you use to support this baloney.

Isn't that the gist of your 'theory'?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 20 Feb 2006, 02:47

..i'll add just this...re: the tosches marciano/moore "dive"....utterly ridiculous....not an iota of truth...if nothing else just looking at the fight.....moore clouts marciano with a thunderbolt.....moore takes a solid whipping before he just gave out....couldn't go on. this was farcical nonsense was disposed of long before the tosches liston book as foolish on the face of it...no one knows how it even got started...maybe in an article in esquire magazine. nut stuff...really nuts.

..have i made myself clear? i hope so.....i don't know how many times on this forum alone i've commented on it.

Musashi · Post by **Musashi** » 22 Feb 2006, 17:44

Jaclem wrote:..i'll add just this...re: the tosches marciano/moore "dive"....utterly ridiculous....not an iota of truth...if nothing else just looking at the fight.....moore clouts marciano with a thunderbolt.....moore takes a solid whipping before he just gave out....couldn't go on. this was farcical nonsense was disposed of long before the tosches liston book as foolish on the face of it...no one knows how it even got started...maybe in an article in esquire magazine. nut stuff...really nuts.

..have i made myself clear? i hope so.....i don't know how many times on this forum alone i've commented on it.

For those that haven't read it, I've pulled the quote from the Tosches book:

"Truman Gibson told me that of perhaps a thousand fights promoted by the IBC, he knew of only three that were fixed."

Truman Gibson founded the IBC (International Boxing Club). Anyways, it goes on...

"The biggest of them was the dive Archie Moore took in his 1955 New York title bout with Rocky Marciano. It was Marciano's last fight, and the fix ensured that Marciano would retired undefeated. After the fight, Gibson went with Moore's manager, Jack Kearns, to see Moore in San Diego. "Archie was happy and took us to his offices, beautifully appointed. Then he said, 'I want you to meet my partners.' Brought two guys in, and Jack Kearns looked over and said, 'You dirty son of a bitch, why didn't you tell me?' The minute he saw those guys he knew what had happened."

It doesn't say who the two guys were. I would assume Frankie Carbo's people. I personally watching the fight can't see how it was fixed. And I don't know how Gibson came to the assumption that it was fixed based on the little bit of information he gives here. But who am I to say?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 23 Feb 2006, 02:43

..npal..whjo are you to say? You're a boxing fan who has watched the fight and studied it and have seen for yourself how foolish the claim is.

alas..we can't ask truman gibson for a clarification...he died just a little while ago. he was one of the men who helped joe louis on his way to the heavyweight title. i have no idea why he would have made such a dumb comment about the marciano/moore fight.....but then...typical of tosches...this hack writer presents more questions than answers....innuendo instead of documentation.

i think his biggest number of whoppers is in his phony "biography" of Dean Martin.

Musashi · Post by **Musashi** » 23 Feb 2006, 10:18

Jaclem wrote:..npal..whjo are you to say? You're a boxing fan who has watched the fight and studied it and have seen for yourself how foolish the claim is.

alas..we can't ask truman gibson for a clarification...he died just a little while ago. he was one of the men who helped joe louis on his way to the heavyweight title. i have no idea why he would have made such a dumb comment about the marciano/moore fight.....but then...typical of tosches...this hack writer presents more questions than answers....innuendo instead of documentation.

i think his biggest number of whoppers is in his phony "biography" of Dean Martin.

I understand where you're coming from. Who I am to say is that I don't believe what Gibson/Tosches had to say. At least not from watching the fight and from the little bits of information Tosches has given us. Either Tosches and Gibson were/are complete bozo's or someone has legitimate reason to believe that this was true. Unless someone can provide more information, which may never happen now that Gibson/Moore/Marciano are dead, the most I can say is that I don't believe it.