Evander Overrated Immensely

man
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by man »

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
man wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:He's top 50 period.
he is definitely top20 for me,
and sometimes, especially
after i just watched tyson I,
around 10.
I have him 4th at heavy. Meant all time any weight.
right. though i feel like with pound for
pound everything past ten or maybe
twenty becomes messy by the number
of worthy candidates.

seems to me people sometimes forget
that evander moved to heavy at age 26
or so and many of his big fights were
past his prime. yet he was so competitive
that this was not obvious for quite a few
years. he was 37 when he met lennox ...
SaadOffTheDeck
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

man wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
man wrote: he is definitely top20 for me,
and sometimes, especially
after i just watched tyson I,
around 10.
I have him 4th at heavy. Meant all time any weight.
right. though i feel like with pound for
pound everything past ten or maybe
twenty becomes messy by the number
of worthy candidates.

seems to me people sometimes forget
that evander moved to heavy at age 26
or so and many of his big fights were
past his prime. yet he was so competitive
that this was not obvious for quite a few
years. he was 37 when he met lennox ...
:TU: like I said. He's highly underrated.
Tuan_Jim
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by Tuan_Jim »

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
man wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote: I have him 4th at heavy. Meant all time any weight.
right. though i feel like with pound for
pound everything past ten or maybe
twenty becomes messy by the number
of worthy candidates.

seems to me people sometimes forget
that evander moved to heavy at age 26
or so and many of his big fights were
past his prime. yet he was so competitive
that this was not obvious for quite a few
years. he was 37 when he met lennox ...
:TU: like I said. He's highly underrated.
Why do you think it's become so fashionable to downgrade him? A guy always fighting naturally bigger men, always giving his all in the ring. What's not to like? Bowe I understand the distaste. But Holyfield? I just don't get it.
SaadOffTheDeck
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

Tuan_Jim wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
man wrote: right. though i feel like with pound for
pound everything past ten or maybe
twenty becomes messy by the number
of worthy candidates.

seems to me people sometimes forget
that evander moved to heavy at age 26
or so and many of his big fights were
past his prime. yet he was so competitive
that this was not obvious for quite a few
years. he was 37 when he met lennox ...
:TU: like I said. He's highly underrated.
Why do you think it's become so fashionable to downgrade him? A guy always fighting naturally bigger men, always giving his all in the ring. What's not to like? Bowe I understand the distaste. But Holyfield? I just don't get it.
It's Tyson fans.
man
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by man »

Tuan_Jim wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
man wrote: right. though i feel like with pound for
pound everything past ten or maybe
twenty becomes messy by the number
of worthy candidates.

seems to me people sometimes forget
that evander moved to heavy at age 26
or so and many of his big fights were
past his prime. yet he was so competitive
that this was not obvious for quite a few
years. he was 37 when he met lennox ...
:TU: like I said. He's highly underrated.
Why do you think it's become so fashionable to downgrade him? A guy always fighting naturally bigger men, always giving his all in the ring. What's not to like? Bowe I understand the distaste. But Holyfield? I just don't get it.
perception gets twisted for some if a
fighter keeps going past the point where
he should. evander (for whatever reason)
looked terrific even in his mid forties, but
got beaten by mediocre men. and those
who had not witnessed his greatness, do
hold that against him.

many have maybe not forgotten that roy
jones had been great, but they are not
aware anymore just how great he actually
was. he was amazing and fought like no
one else, but the shell of what he was is
currently twisting perception of the past.

plus in evander's case he was this old
fashioned tough as nails, short hooks
kind of guy and that is not as flashy as
the 6.7 right hand knock out giant. he
was no dancer either, didn't "box", just
a guy who would keep coming no matter
what.
man
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by man »

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Tuan_Jim wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote: :TU: like I said. He's highly underrated.
Why do you think it's become so fashionable to downgrade him? A guy always fighting naturally bigger men, always giving his all in the ring. What's not to like? Bowe I understand the distaste. But Holyfield? I just don't get it.
It's Tyson fans.
:TU:

that very first round was something.
still remember how one of the first
hands rocked evander into the ropes.
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by Kalan »

Tuan_Jim wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
man wrote: right. though i feel like with pound for
pound everything past ten or maybe
twenty becomes messy by the number
of worthy candidates.

seems to me people sometimes forget
that evander moved to heavy at age 26
or so and many of his big fights were
past his prime. yet he was so competitive
that this was not obvious for quite a few
years. he was 37 when he met lennox ...
:TU: like I said. He's highly underrated.
Why do you think it's become so fashionable to downgrade him? A guy always fighting naturally bigger men, always giving his all in the ring. What's not to like? Bowe I understand the distaste. But Holyfield? I just don't get it.
It had something to do with his AKA/Evan Fields and the Steroid cheater revelations.
pedrog60
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by pedrog60 »

Few people actually have him higher than 20 at P4P, i believe that is pretty obvious, i dont even think that he might be top 50 for me and i am a big fan of Evander, he is my favourite boxer, because of his conditioning, skill, and will, being the smallest guy at any fight he fought as a HW.

But there are dozens of fighters better than him at P4P, but thats not the point of this thread i believe, since we were talking about Top HW exclusevely.

If you go P4P, i can name whitout thinking too much in guys like Duran, Moore, Robinson, Ali, Armstrong, Floyd, Hearns, Louis, Holmes, Lewis, who are far better by him in almost any aspect, except heart of course.
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by Tuan_Jim »

pedrog60 wrote:Few people actually have him higher than 20 at P4P, i believe that is pretty obvious, i dont even think that he might be top 50 for me and i am a big fan of Evander, he is my favourite boxer, because of his conditioning, skill, and will, being the smallest guy at any fight he fought as a HW.

But there are dozens of fighters better than him at P4P, but thats not the point of this thread i believe, since we were talking about Top HW exclusevely.

If you go P4P, i can name whitout thinking too much in guys like Duran, Moore, Robinson, Ali, Armstrong, Floyd, Hearns, Louis, Holmes, Lewis, who are far better by him in almost any aspect, except heart of course.
Lewis wasn't "far better" than Holyfield in real life, and the Real Deal was nearly 40 by that point! Holyfield was far more multi faceted by Lewis in my opinion, cunning & adaptable. When you took Lewis' jab his whole game would collapse.
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by pedrog60 »

Tuan_Jim wrote:
pedrog60 wrote:Few people actually have him higher than 20 at P4P, i believe that is pretty obvious, i dont even think that he might be top 50 for me and i am a big fan of Evander, he is my favourite boxer, because of his conditioning, skill, and will, being the smallest guy at any fight he fought as a HW.

But there are dozens of fighters better than him at P4P, but thats not the point of this thread i believe, since we were talking about Top HW exclusevely.

If you go P4P, i can name whitout thinking too much in guys like Duran, Moore, Robinson, Ali, Armstrong, Floyd, Hearns, Louis, Holmes, Lewis, who are far better by him in almost any aspect, except heart of course.
Lewis wasn't "far better" than Holyfield in real life, and the Real Deal was nearly 40 by that point! Holyfield was far more multi faceted by Lewis in my opinion, cunning & adaptable. When you took Lewis' jab his whole game would collapse.
I agree, Lewis was 80% about that jab, but he was old too, and was superior against any other Contender than Evander would ve been, besides being a natural Hweight and having 2 Olympics Medals (Silver and Gold) and beating pretty much anybody who Evander fought, but in better fashion.

No disrespect to Evander, huge fighter, but H2H you cant ignore the size/power disadvantages that he had, and that would ve cost him many fights.
Tuan_Jim
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by Tuan_Jim »

pedrog60 wrote:
Tuan_Jim wrote:
pedrog60 wrote:Few people actually have him higher than 20 at P4P, i believe that is pretty obvious, i dont even think that he might be top 50 for me and i am a big fan of Evander, he is my favourite boxer, because of his conditioning, skill, and will, being the smallest guy at any fight he fought as a HW.

But there are dozens of fighters better than him at P4P, but thats not the point of this thread i believe, since we were talking about Top HW exclusevely.

If you go P4P, i can name whitout thinking too much in guys like Duran, Moore, Robinson, Ali, Armstrong, Floyd, Hearns, Louis, Holmes, Lewis, who are far better by him in almost any aspect, except heart of course.
Lewis wasn't "far better" than Holyfield in real life, and the Real Deal was nearly 40 by that point! Holyfield was far more multi faceted by Lewis in my opinion, cunning & adaptable. When you took Lewis' jab his whole game would collapse.
I agree, Lewis was 80% about that jab, but he was old too, and was superior against any other Contender than Evander would ve been, besides being a natural Hweight and having 2 Olympics Medals (Silver and Gold) and beating pretty much anybody who Evander fought, but in better fashion.

No disrespect to Evander, huge fighter, but H2H you cant ignore the size/power disadvantages that he had, and that would ve cost him many fights.
Did you not see Holyfield/Mercer!?

Also, Holyfield also holds a win over Riddick Bowe. A lot of people, including myself, feel Bowe would have splattered Lewis.
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

pedrog60 wrote:Few people actually have him higher than 20 at P4P, i believe that is pretty obvious, i dont even think that he might be top 50 for me and i am a big fan of Evander, he is my favourite boxer, because of his conditioning, skill, and will, being the smallest guy at any fight he fought as a HW.

But there are dozens of fighters better than him at P4P, but thats not the point of this thread i believe, since we were talking about Top HW exclusevely.

If you go P4P, i can name whitout thinking too much in guys like Duran, Moore, Robinson, Ali, Armstrong, Floyd, Hearns, Louis, Holmes, Lewis, who are far better by him in almost any aspect, except heart of course.
I'd have all of them ahead of him with the exception of Lewis. Debatable at Heavyweight, a landlslide for Holyfield p4p. He fought prime Lewis past his prime and the only reason Lennox got the better of it was size. If they were the same size he'd stop Lennox every time.
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by Kalan »

Tuan_Jim wrote:
pedrog60 wrote:
Tuan_Jim wrote:
Lewis wasn't "far better" than Holyfield in real life, and the Real Deal was nearly 40 by that point! Holyfield was far more multi faceted by Lewis in my opinion, cunning & adaptable. When you took Lewis' jab his whole game would collapse.
I agree, Lewis was 80% about that jab, but he was old too, and was superior against any other Contender than Evander would ve been, besides being a natural Hweight and having 2 Olympics Medals (Silver and Gold) and beating pretty much anybody who Evander fought, but in better fashion.

No disrespect to Evander, huge fighter, but H2H you cant ignore the size/power disadvantages that he had, and that would ve cost him many fights.
Did you not see Holyfield/Mercer!?

Also, Holyfield also holds a win over Riddick Bowe. A lot of people, including myself, feel Bowe would have splattered Lewis.
Bowe didn't splatter Golota... In fact Bowe went SPLAT on the canvas a few times ... Lewis blew Golota away like a fart -- just as he would to Bowe
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by Tuan_Jim »

Kalan wrote:
Tuan_Jim wrote:
pedrog60 wrote:
I agree, Lewis was 80% about that jab, but he was old too, and was superior against any other Contender than Evander would ve been, besides being a natural Hweight and having 2 Olympics Medals (Silver and Gold) and beating pretty much anybody who Evander fought, but in better fashion.

No disrespect to Evander, huge fighter, but H2H you cant ignore the size/power disadvantages that he had, and that would ve cost him many fights.
Did you not see Holyfield/Mercer!?

Also, Holyfield also holds a win over Riddick Bowe. A lot of people, including myself, feel Bowe would have splattered Lewis.
Bowe didn't splatter Golota... In fact Bowe went SPLAT on the canvas a few times ... Lewis blew Golota away like a fart -- just as he would to Bowe
You could go round in circles forever, couldn't you? I wonder if Golota had recovered from that broken jaw Bowe gave him in the rematch. For the record - Lewis couldn't knock down a nearly 40 year old Holyfield in 24 rounds - whereas Bowe decked a prime Holyfield and even KOd him. And no one ever splattered Bowe - whereas Lewis got pasted to the canvas twice by B class guys.
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by Kalan »

Tuan_Jim wrote:
Kalan wrote:
Tuan_Jim wrote:
Did you not see Holyfield/Mercer!?

Also, Holyfield also holds a win over Riddick Bowe. A lot of people, including myself, feel Bowe would have splattered Lewis.
Bowe didn't splatter Golota... In fact Bowe went SPLAT on the canvas a few times ... Lewis blew Golota away like a fart -- just as he would to Bowe
You could go round in circles forever, couldn't you? I wonder if Golota had recovered from that broken jaw Bowe gave him in the rematch. For the record - Lewis couldn't knock down a nearly 40 year old Holyfield in 24 rounds - whereas Bowe decked a prime Holyfield and even KOd him. And no one ever splattered Bowe - whereas Lewis got pasted to the canvas twice by B class guys.
Forget it... Lewis never took beatings like Bowe... Lewis was hard to hit and Bowe was super easy to hit... He's younger than Lewis, but financially not well off and in damned poor shape physically and mentally... He took on a kick boxer and looked ridiculously bad never landing a punch.

Here's Bowe looking like the world's biggest joke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3obYvgFllxo
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by hhaehre »

Kalan wrote:
Tuan_Jim wrote:
Kalan wrote:
Bowe didn't splatter Golota... In fact Bowe went SPLAT on the canvas a few times ... Lewis blew Golota away like a fart -- just as he would to Bowe
You could go round in circles forever, couldn't you? I wonder if Golota had recovered from that broken jaw Bowe gave him in the rematch. For the record - Lewis couldn't knock down a nearly 40 year old Holyfield in 24 rounds - whereas Bowe decked a prime Holyfield and even KOd him. And no one ever splattered Bowe - whereas Lewis got pasted to the canvas twice by B class guys.
Forget it... Lewis never took beatings like Bowe... Lewis was hard to hit and Bowe was super easy to hit... He's younger than Lewis, but financially not well off and in damned poor shape physically and mentally... He took on a kick boxer and looked ridiculously bad never landing a punch.

Here's Bowe looking like the world's biggest joke https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3obYvgFllxo
When Tuan_Jim was comparing prime Lewis to prime Bowe don't you think it's rather disingenuous, or even downright stupid, to bring up a fight Bowe had at age 46 in a different sport? Or is that a good argument in you head?
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by Kalan »

It shows what Bowe is reduced to because he ducked money fights with Lewis.. Mercer.. Ruddock.. McCall.. Tyson.. Tua.. etc. in his prime.
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by Tuan_Jim »

Kalan wrote:It shows what Bowe is reduced to because he ducked money fights with Lewis.. Mercer.. Ruddock.. McCall.. Tyson.. Tua.. etc. in his prime.
For the millionth time, he never ducked Mercer - Mercer had a shot at Bowe but blew it by losing to Ferguson.


He signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got KOd by McCall. He tried to fight Lewis again but Lewis opted to fighter Mercer, who was a year out and coming off a loss to Holyfield.

Citing Ruddock, McCall and Tua confirms your ignorance of the period.

When Tyson came out of prison Bowe/Tyson was considered The Fight and Team Bowe were desperate for it. Alas Tyson was never going to be allowed near Bowe and got squashed by a guy Bowe brutally KOd the year before.

You don't know any of this because you didn't follow boxing in the 1990s. You look at Boxrec and if a fight isn't there you make up a reason for why it didn't happen. You get shown up by your ignorance of events repeatedly, on a daily basis, and you continue to blather on like a braindead retard who can't digest information.
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by hhaehre »

Kalan wrote:It shows what Bowe is reduced to because he ducked money fights with Lewis.. Mercer.. Ruddock.. McCall.. Tyson.. Tua.. etc. in his prime.
Bowe competing in a Muay Thai fight 15+ years after his prime proves he ducked Lewis, Mercer ,Ruddock, McCall, Tyson and Tua? What kind of bizarro world do you live in?
man
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by man »

Tuan_Jim wrote:Bowe ... signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got KOd by McCall. He tried to fight Lewis again but Lewis opted to fighter Mercer, who was a year out and coming off a loss to Holyfield.
i don't remember any of the match-
making details back then, but didn't
bowe famously trash his belt in order
to avoid lewis?
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by Tuan_Jim »

man wrote:
Tuan_Jim wrote:Bowe ... signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got KOd by McCall. He tried to fight Lewis again but Lewis opted to fighter Mercer, who was a year out and coming off a loss to Holyfield.
i don't remember any of the match-
making details back then, but didn't
bowe famously trash his belt in order
to avoid lewis?
Here you go: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=197069
man
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by man »

Tuan_Jim wrote:
man wrote:
Tuan_Jim wrote:Bowe ... signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got KOd by McCall. He tried to fight Lewis again but Lewis opted to fighter Mercer, who was a year out and coming off a loss to Holyfield.
i don't remember any of the match-
making details back then, but didn't
bowe famously trash his belt in order
to avoid lewis?
Here you go: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=197069
cool.
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by Kalan »

man wrote:i don't remember any of the match-
making details back then, but didn't
bowe famously trash his belt in order
to avoid lewis?
He sure did. He was afraid of Lewis since Lennox knocked him out when he won the Olympic Gold Medal. Bowe didn't want to experience such humiliation again... And if they ever had another fight scheduled Bowe found a way out of that one too... Bowe flagrantly DUCKED big punchers like Tua, Ruddock, Tyson, McCall, Mercer, and of course Lewis.

As Glyn Leach wrote in that article.. "In his time as champion, Bowe was, quite justifiably accused of milking the title in the most shameless manner with 2 ultra-soft defenses. And then, when he was widely expected to trounce Evander Holyfield in their rematch last November, he ate his way out of his title." ... Sloppy, fat Bowe, getting his ass trashed by the sluggish plodding "Foul Pole" Golota, was the height of his ineptitude.
man
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by man »

Kalan wrote:
man wrote:i don't remember any of the match-
making details back then, but didn't
bowe famously trash his belt in order
to avoid lewis?
He sure did. He was afraid of Lewis since Lennox knocked him out when he won the Olympic Gold Medal. Bowe didn't want to experience such humiliation again...
you mean this "humiliation"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K39AbwNl3QU
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Re: Evander Overrated Immensely

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

He knew a rematch with Holyfield was a bigger fight and picked up 10 million to dispatch of Ferguson and Dokes. It was smart business.
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