Hearns vs McCallum

[Noxy]

I think Hearns wins that one. Just because McCallum didn't meet the likes of SRR, Hagler etc doesn't mean he would have beaten them. Another thing, Hearns wasn't one to avoid Toney or anyone else. I don't think he even understood the concept of fear.

[Kalan]

100% agreee. As usual Kalan is way off with his revisionist history. Mike Mc wasn't ducked by the big four he just wasnt bankable and became better, later. So lets see - Hagler fought hearns in April 1985.
At that time McCallum had won a portion of the lt middle championship and defended once. That's it - zero clamour for that fight zero! Lets look at say hearns leonard in 89 when they were both past their best - Mcallum had just reeled off a couple of confidence booster fights in France after getting beaten by Kalambay. Again zero clamour for a fight between those guys at the time.

Its easy to look back and say - oh he was great they all avoided him but despite how good he was, the big guys didnt avoid him, it just wasnt worth the money. They had superfights - mccallum wasnt superfight material - he was an amazing boxer but just didnt have the personality and capture the public imagination.

As Emersalsa says though he wasnt around to fight the big 4 when the big fights happened - those years were 1980-1987 - after that hagler retired and all the others were on the way downhill. If mike had won the lt middle champs in say 1980, then unified - you can bet hed have got a fight with any of the big guns - he didnt cos he wasnt there.

I just think it was a case of McCallum not being box office as opposed to those guys actively avoiding him.

They can't all be accused of avoiding him when they all fought each other, sometimes more than once.

Timing is everything. I just can't picture any of the Fabulous 4 ducking the great Mike McCallum. When The Body Snatcher came into the scene, the Fab 4 were established. Plus, they were fighting each other for the BIG PAYDAYS. There was no room for Mike. He came into the party, a little too late. If he would have been champion by 1980, then, we would have seen him fight against the elite. Plus, The Body Snatcher was not a top draw. He was undeniable an undefeated champion. But, something was missing of what The Fab Four had.

The great Thomas Hearns was his stable mate at one time at Kronk Gym. The great Roberto Duran was looking for a big payday with The Hitman, and possibly a dream come true reality of the great Sugar Ray Leonard to come back to the ring. Marvelous Marvin was waiting on Leonard. And Leonard? Was retired. The great Wilfred Benitez somehow disappeared and his boxing skills eroded all of the sudden.

Maybe Mike was not flashy. He was strictly by the book fighter. Get the job done. But, in the star studded era like the 80s, you had to be super entertaining to be noticed. You had to be captivating. Even though he won his six title defenses by knockout, like it wasn't enough for his exposure for a super million dollar fight.

That's a lot of BS... Those guys didn't fight McCallum because they would have gotten their asses kicked in... McCallum wasn't an American. He was a Jamaican... Kind of like Golovkin is a Kazakh... Were they American they would have gotten a chance to kick a lot more ass.

[elmersalsa]

100% agreee. As usual Kalan is way off with his revisionist history. Mike Mc wasn't ducked by the big four he just wasnt bankable and became better, later. So lets see - Hagler fought hearns in April 1985.
At that time McCallum had won a portion of the lt middle championship and defended once. That's it - zero clamour for that fight zero! Lets look at say hearns leonard in 89 when they were both past their best - Mcallum had just reeled off a couple of confidence booster fights in France after getting beaten by Kalambay. Again zero clamour for a fight between those guys at the time.

Its easy to look back and say - oh he was great they all avoided him but despite how good he was, the big guys didnt avoid him, it just wasnt worth the money. They had superfights - mccallum wasnt superfight material - he was an amazing boxer but just didnt have the personality and capture the public imagination.

As Emersalsa says though he wasnt around to fight the big 4 when the big fights happened - those years were 1980-1987 - after that hagler retired and all the others were on the way downhill. If mike had won the lt middle champs in say 1980, then unified - you can bet hed have got a fight with any of the big guns - he didnt cos he wasnt there.

Timing is everything. I just can't picture any of the Fabulous 4 ducking the great Mike McCallum. When The Body Snatcher came into the scene, the Fab 4 were established. Plus, they were fighting each other for the BIG PAYDAYS. There was no room for Mike. He came into the party, a little too late. If he would have been champion by 1980, then, we would have seen him fight against the elite. Plus, The Body Snatcher was not a top draw. He was undeniable an undefeated champion. But, something was missing of what The Fab Four had.

The great Thomas Hearns was his stable mate at one time at Kronk Gym. The great Roberto Duran was looking for a big payday with The Hitman, and possibly a dream come true reality of the great Sugar Ray Leonard to come back to the ring. Marvelous Marvin was waiting on Leonard. And Leonard? Was retired. The great Wilfred Benitez somehow disappeared and his boxing skills eroded all of the sudden.

Maybe Mike was not flashy. He was strictly by the book fighter. Get the job done. But, in the star studded era like the 80s, you had to be super entertaining to be noticed. You had to be captivating. Even though he won his six title defenses by knockout, like it wasn't enough for his exposure for a super million dollar fight.

That's a lot of BS... Those guys didn't fight McCallum because they would have gotten their asses kicked in... McCallum wasn't an American. He was a Jamaican... Kind of like Golovkin is a Kazakh... Were they American they would have gotten a chance to kick a lot more ass.

It's true. He is Jamaican. Maybe, that hurt him in his spotlight. Maybe he didn't had an efficient management team. McCallum didn't had a fan base like the Fab Four. He probably fought in places that nobody thought of for a boxing match. Maybe he didn't had a tv fight lucrative contract. He was a fantastic all time great. No doubt. A top 100 ATG P4P in my view.

Looking back, I don't think Duran nor Leonard would have beaten him at 154lbs or above. But, I could see The Hitman beating him and vice versa. But, against Marvelous? I don't think he would have beaten Marvelous, but, Marvelous would have had his hands full for that fight, better believe it.

But, as for The Fab 4 ducking The Body Snatcher? Not even you believe that, Kalan.

[Ambling Alp II]

100% agreee. As usual Kalan is way off with his revisionist history. Mike Mc wasn't ducked by the big four he just wasnt bankable and became better, later. So lets see - Hagler fought hearns in April 1985.
At that time McCallum had won a portion of the lt middle championship and defended once. That's it - zero clamour for that fight zero! Lets look at say hearns leonard in 89 when they were both past their best - Mcallum had just reeled off a couple of confidence booster fights in France after getting beaten by Kalambay. Again zero clamour for a fight between those guys at the time.

Its easy to look back and say - oh he was great they all avoided him but despite how good he was, the big guys didnt avoid him, it just wasnt worth the money. They had superfights - mccallum wasnt superfight material - he was an amazing boxer but just didnt have the personality and capture the public imagination.

As Emersalsa says though he wasnt around to fight the big 4 when the big fights happened - those years were 1980-1987 - after that hagler retired and all the others were on the way downhill. If mike had won the lt middle champs in say 1980, then unified - you can bet hed have got a fight with any of the big guns - he didnt cos he wasnt there.

Timing is everything. I just can't picture any of the Fabulous 4 ducking the great Mike McCallum. When The Body Snatcher came into the scene, the Fab 4 were established. Plus, they were fighting each other for the BIG PAYDAYS. There was no room for Mike. He came into the party, a little too late. If he would have been champion by 1980, then, we would have seen him fight against the elite. Plus, The Body Snatcher was not a top draw. He was undeniable an undefeated champion. But, something was missing of what The Fab Four had.

The great Thomas Hearns was his stable mate at one time at Kronk Gym. The great Roberto Duran was looking for a big payday with The Hitman, and possibly a dream come true reality of the great Sugar Ray Leonard to come back to the ring. Marvelous Marvin was waiting on Leonard. And Leonard? Was retired. The great Wilfred Benitez somehow disappeared and his boxing skills eroded all of the sudden.

Maybe Mike was not flashy. He was strictly by the book fighter. Get the job done. But, in the star studded era like the 80s, you had to be super entertaining to be noticed. You had to be captivating. Even though he won his six title defenses by knockout, like it wasn't enough for his exposure for a super million dollar fight.

On the money.

There was never any real clamour to see McCallum against any of the Big 4, because, like you have said, he was never quite on their radars at the right time.

They were either in the Autumn of their careers, in & out of retirement, or weight hopping.

Syntax- You hit the nail on the head. Nobody was screaming for McCallum against any of these guys at the time.

[Kalan]

I don't understand why the great Mike McCallum doesn't get much credit in this forum. He was a complete and exceptional fantastic fighter. He came a little late to show his skills vs The Fab 4 of Boxing.

I can see this guy beating Duran, Leonard, Benitez and Hearns. A very underrated fighter.

I'm not sure anyone under rates him. I do think he may have been under tested....and without a good test, the rating would be left wanting a bit.

Not sure he'd compete with those top names, but you can't rule it out. What was his A#1 win?

His problem is he moans and moans and moans.

He is the ATG of moaning as well as an ATG in the ring...his wins over curry,jackson,kalambay,mcrory,harding,collins, Watson, graham are a fantastic resume and that draw with toney. He also had 2 more fights with toney and a payday v jones jnr

He got his paydays and big fights

He just refuses to accept that everyone and their sister wanted to fight SRL In the 80s but it was very limited tickets to that show. Mccallum isn't the only one.....curry,starling,honeyghan,nunn...all wanted SRL

He didn't get to fight duran or benitez but as far as his cut goes it wouldn't have been more than the curry and jones jnr fights.

so that leaves hearns....who was his stable mate...and who he could have faced if he hadn't lost to kalambay but who was also aiming higher with haggler and srl himself. get over it mike.

That leaves Hagler....this is the one mccallum is most bitter about. And it is ridiculous. Hagler was crying out for big name fighters during 83-86 and was very happy to get the big three. But he also met a dangerous guy like mugabi along the way and Sibson and hamsho and roldan. The fact is he would have fitted in mccallum if mike had stepped it up earlier in his career. He coasted through 84-85 and most of 86.

Mugabi was an unskilled swinger like Julian Jackson... Jackson was spectacular 29-0 puncher with 27 KOs when McCallum ripped him out in 2 rounds with a devastating display of power.. Hagler fought guys coming up in weight: Duran, Hearns, and Leonard.. SRL was 147 for his previous fight when he fought Hagler.. After McCallum's spectacular punchout of Jackson he deserved a shot at Hagler.. He also deserved fights with Hearns, Duran, and SRL.. Leonard went into strategic retirements and was also a strategic World Title Belt abandoner like Canelo..

McCallum got his shot at Toney, and landed the most punches in their draw, but he was 35... The time he should have gotten a shot was 7 years earlier in1984 when they made him fight unknown Sean Mannion for the vacant WBA 154 Title.. Duran abandoned the WBA Title so he wouldn't have to fight McCallum, but they could have given McCallum a better opponent.. Leonard also abandoned the Middleweight Title when Nunn and McCallum were the top contenders.. Ray never defended his 160 belt, but that seems to be all right because he was Sugar Ray.

McCallum was Jamaican, and that didn't help him... If he were an American he would have been treated a little better.

[BoxBuzz]

Do you think that Jackson was really finished when the ref called it?

I'm not saying I don't think that Mike was going to get the job done. Just not sure it was over when the ref called it.

[Kalan]

Yup... Jackson was cooked... No sense in getting a guy killed. It was time to stop the slaughter.

[elmersalsa]

Yup... Jackson was cooked... No sense in getting a guy killed. It was time to stop the slaughter.

You are right. Julian "The Hawk" Jackson was out with that fight with The Body Snatcher. It was McCallum's gutsiest win.

[Kalan]

I think Hearns wins that one. Just because McCallum didn't meet the likes of SRR, Hagler etc doesn't mean he would have beaten them. Another thing, Hearns wasn't one to avoid Toney or anyone else. I don't think he even understood the concept of fear.

He did... He looked absolutely terrified against Hagler and Barkley before they finished him off for good -- very early in their fights with Hearns.

Here are 2 guys who didn't know the meaning of fear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb8eirhcgx0

[Cojimar 1946]

Common opponents might give us some idea of how they compare if there are any

[Kalan]

Common opponents might give us some idea of how they compare if there are any

And there really aren't... and sometimes that doesn't tell you anyway because of style dynamics... But in this case, a lot of guys who McCallum fought, Hearns wouldn't fight -- and a lot of guys Hearns fought wouldn't fight McCallum...

But McCallum and Toney fought to a draw when McCallum was 35... So while McCallum was still in his prime there was very little to choose between them .. Toney and Hearns have Iran Barkley in common... Barkley beat Hearns twice, once when Tommy was 29.. Barkley didn't have much of a chance against Toney -- and it was pretty clear he was going to get stopped.. Actually, I don't know how valid that is -- maybe not very.

An analysis of their styles works better... McCallum had a pressing, body punching, trading style -- with a chin to match. He was never stopped or dropped.. Hearns' chin got him in trouble on more than one occasion -- just like the 29-0 bomber Julian Jackson's chin got him in trouble with McCallum.. Jackson and McCallum traded thunderous shots.. Mike ripped Jackson's body out, and stopped him in 2 rounds..

[elmersalsa]

Common opponents might give us some idea of how they compare if there are any

And there really aren't... and sometimes that doesn't tell you anyway because of style dynamics... But in this case, a lot of guys who McCallum fought, Hearns wouldn't fight -- and a lot of guys Hearns fought wouldn't fight McCallum...

But McCallum and Toney fought to a draw when McCallum was 35... So while McCallum was still in his prime there was very little to choose between them .. Toney and Hearns have Iran Barkley in common... Barkley beat Hearns twice, once when Tommy was 29.. Barkley didn't have much of a chance against Toney -- and it was pretty clear he was going to get stopped.. Actually, I don't know how valid that is -- maybe not very.

An analysis of their styles works better... McCallum had a pressing, body punching, trading style -- with a chin to match. He was never stopped or dropped.. Hearns' chin got him in trouble on more than one occasion -- just like the 29-0 bomber Julian Jackson's chin got him in trouble with McCallum.. Jackson and McCallum traded thunderous shots.. Mike ripped Jackson's body out, and stopped him in 2 rounds..

You're right in some facts about the great Mike McCallum:
He had a great chin
He was very strong

[Dart340]

My dominant memory of the "great" Mike McCallum is his 15 round pillowfight with the non-descript Sean Mannion. You can always make a case pro or con for just about any fighter. The whole "look what he did against Julian Jackson!" can be neutralized by "look what he didn't do against a scrub like Mannion!".

He was a really good fighter, but the idea that Hagler was shaking in his boots avoiding a sure loss against him strikes me as unrealistic at best.

[elmersalsa]

My dominant memory of the "great" Mike McCallum is his 15 round pillowfight with the non-descript Sean Mannion. You can always make a case pro or con for just about any fighter. The whole "look what he did against Julian Jackson!" can be neutralized by "look what he didn't do against a scrub like Mannion!".

He was a really good fighter, but the idea that Hagler was shaking in his boots avoiding a sure loss against him strikes me as unrealistic at best.

Marvelous was praying for Sugar Ray to come back to the ring. Hi$$$ dream came through in '87

[PredatorHayds]

I'd go for Hearns via KO.

[Kalan]

My dominant memory of the "great" Mike McCallum is his 15 round pillowfight with the non-descript Sean Mannion. You can always make a case pro or con for just about any fighter. The whole "look what he did against Julian Jackson!" can be neutralized by "look what he didn't do against a scrub like Mannion!".

He was a really good fighter, but the idea that Hagler was shaking in his boots avoiding a sure loss against him strikes me as unrealistic at best.

Are you going to disrespect Marvin Hagler because his fight with Marcos Geraldo---who'd been knocked out 10 X previously---was a tepid sparring contest??? ... Hearns smashed Duran but Hagler certainly didn't... First, if your opponent won't engage - good luck knocking him out... And 2nd, If you're opponent is 6" taller, has A 12" reach advantage, and can punch hard, you're probably getting knocked out. That's 1 problem too many to deal with in 1 opponent... so Duran accepting the Hearns fight was pretty amazing. It's a Foreman-Frazier scenario.

Hagler shaking in his boots wasn't the issue... Hagler knew McCallum wasn't a good matchup for him... Ditto Leonard and Hearns who wanted none of MIke.

[thelawisanass]

My dominant memory of the "great" Mike McCallum is his 15 round pillowfight with the non-descript Sean Mannion. You can always make a case pro or con for just about any fighter. The whole "look what he did against Julian Jackson!" can be neutralized by "look what he didn't do against a scrub like Mannion!".

He was a really good fighter, but the idea that Hagler was shaking in his boots avoiding a sure loss against him strikes me as unrealistic at best.

Are you going to disrespect Marvin Hagler because his fight with Marcos Geraldo---who'd been knocked out 10 X previously---was a tepid sparring contest??? ... Hearns smashed Duran but Hagler certainly didn't... First, if your opponent won't engage - good luck knocking him out... And 2nd, If you're opponent is 6" taller, has A 12" reach advantage, and can punch hard, you're probably getting knocked out. That's 1 problem too many to deal with in 1 opponent... so Duran accepting the Hearns fight was pretty amazing. It's a Foreman-Frazier scenario.

Hagler shaking in his boots wasn't the issue... Hagler knew McCallum wasn't a good matchup for him... Ditto Leonard and Hearns who wanted none of MIke.

you do know that hagler was retired before mccallum had even had a fight at middle weight

[Kalan]

My dominant memory of the "great" Mike McCallum is his 15 round pillowfight with the non-descript Sean Mannion. You can always make a case pro or con for just about any fighter. The whole "look what he did against Julian Jackson!" can be neutralized by "look what he didn't do against a scrub like Mannion!".

He was a really good fighter, but the idea that Hagler was shaking in his boots avoiding a sure loss against him strikes me as unrealistic at best.

Are you going to disrespect Marvin Hagler because his fight with Marcos Geraldo---who'd been knocked out 10 X previously---was a tepid sparring contest??? ... Hearns smashed Duran but Hagler certainly didn't... First, if your opponent won't engage - good luck knocking him out... And 2nd, If you're opponent is 6" taller, has A 12" reach advantage, and can punch hard, you're probably getting knocked out. That's 1 problem too many to deal with in 1 opponent... so Duran accepting the Hearns fight was pretty amazing. It's a Foreman-Frazier scenario.

Hagler shaking in his boots wasn't the issue... Hagler knew McCallum wasn't a good matchup for him... Ditto Leonard and Hearns who wanted none of MIke.

you do know that hagler was retired before mccallum had even had a fight at middle weight

You're incorrect ... McCallum has several middleweight fights at 160 or greater before Hagler ever retired... MM knew he could fight well at the weight.

[gilgamesh]

Are you going to disrespect Marvin Hagler because his fight with Marcos Geraldo---who'd been knocked out 10 X previously---was a tepid sparring contest??? ... Hearns smashed Duran but Hagler certainly didn't... First, if your opponent won't engage - good luck knocking him out... And 2nd, If you're opponent is 6" taller, has A 12" reach advantage, and can punch hard, you're probably getting knocked out. That's 1 problem too many to deal with in 1 opponent... so Duran accepting the Hearns fight was pretty amazing. It's a Foreman-Frazier scenario.

Hagler shaking in his boots wasn't the issue... Hagler knew McCallum wasn't a good matchup for him... Ditto Leonard and Hearns who wanted none of MIke.

you do know that hagler was retired before mccallum had even had a fight at middle weight

You're incorrect ... McCallum has several middleweight fights at 160 or greater before Hagler ever retired... MM knew he could fight well at the weight.

McCallum was still a defending Titleholder at 154 pounds when Hagler retired. He'd had a few non-title bouts at Middleweight before Hagler's retirement, but I don't think he was on the radar for Hagler to fight at the time. It's not like Hagler was ducking good competition the last 3 years of his career, Hearns, Mugabi and Leonard were all excellent matchups.

[gilgamesh]

As for the question at hand, who wins between Hearns and McCallum. That'd be a real interesting matchup. Hearns was the superior boxer of the two, but the great chin McCallum had might allow him to stand up to Hearns' shots well enough to stay in the fight and catch Hearns late with something. I'd probably favor Hearns by decision, but McCallum winning by KO is certainly a strong possibility.

[Syntax Error]

Are you going to disrespect Marvin Hagler because his fight with Marcos Geraldo---who'd been knocked out 10 X previously---was a tepid sparring contest??? ... Hearns smashed Duran but Hagler certainly didn't... First, if your opponent won't engage - good luck knocking him out... And 2nd, If you're opponent is 6" taller, has A 12" reach advantage, and can punch hard, you're probably getting knocked out. That's 1 problem too many to deal with in 1 opponent... so Duran accepting the Hearns fight was pretty amazing. It's a Foreman-Frazier scenario.

Hagler shaking in his boots wasn't the issue... Hagler knew McCallum wasn't a good matchup for him... Ditto Leonard and Hearns who wanted none of MIke.

you do know that hagler was retired before mccallum had even had a fight at middle weight

You're incorrect ... McCallum has several middleweight fights at 160 or greater before Hagler ever retired... MM knew he could fight well at the weight.

Kalan, you seem to have a real issue with Hagler's final years in the ring, which is quite bizarre considering what Hagler did in his career.

You know you're boxing, that's for sure, but you seriously cannot be saying that Hagler ducked anyone, let alone Mike McCallum?

It's well documented that Hagler was losing his hunger for the fight game towards the end; something he admitted to Sugar Ray Leonard in private, which hastened Leonard's decision to come out of retirement to fight him.

We all know the reason why Hagler didn't fight McCallum; it's been said a 1000 times before & there is no point any longer in trying to pretend that a man who fought Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran & Sugar Ray Leonard on top of all his other achievements ducked Mike McCallum.

[gilgamesh]

Kalan, you seem to have a real issue with Hagler's final years in the ring, which is quite bizarre considering what Hagler did in his career.

You know you're boxing, that's for sure, but you seriously cannot be saying that Hagler ducked anyone, let alone Mike McCallum?

It's well documented that Hagler was losing his hunger for the fight game towards the end; something he admitted to Sugar Ray Leonard in private, which hastened Leonard's decision to come out of retirement to fight him.

We all know the reason why Hagler didn't fight McCallum; it's been said a 1000 times before & there is no point any longer in trying to pretend that a man who fought Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran & Sugar Ray Leonard on top of all his other achievements ducked Mike McCallum.

He knows his Boxing. That's for sure? I knew more about Boxing than this guy the first year I ever started watching.

[Kalan]

you do know that hagler was retired before mccallum had even had a fight at middle weight

You're incorrect ... McCallum has several middleweight fights at 160 or greater before Hagler ever retired... MM knew he could fight well at the weight.

McCallum was still a defending Titleholder at 154 pounds when Hagler retired. He'd had a few non-title bouts at Middleweight before Hagler's retirement, but I don't think he was on the radar for Hagler to fight at the time. It's not like Hagler was ducking good competition the last 3 years of his career, Hearns, Mugabi and Leonard were all excellent matchups.

Mugabi was a wild swinger.. He would have been Julian Jackson job for McCallum... Leonard, Hearns, and Duran never fought Middleweight before they fought Hagler... So although McCallum having several Middleweight fights and being a 154-pound Champion didn't mean he wasn't the best possible opponent... They all ducked him: Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, and Duran https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKMOqDLVFuk

[Kalan]

Kalan, you seem to have a real issue with Hagler's final years in the ring, which is quite bizarre considering what Hagler did in his career.

You know you're boxing, that's for sure, but you seriously cannot be saying that Hagler ducked anyone, let alone Mike McCallum?

It's well documented that Hagler was losing his hunger for the fight game towards the end; something he admitted to Sugar Ray Leonard in private, which hastened Leonard's decision to come out of retirement to fight him.

We all know the reason why Hagler didn't fight McCallum; it's been said a 1000 times before & there is no point any longer in trying to pretend that a man who fought Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran & Sugar Ray Leonard on top of all his other achievements ducked Mike McCallum.

He knows his Boxing. That's for sure? I knew more about Boxing than this guy the first year I ever started watching.

Right... That's why you picked Trout to beat Charlo and picked Klitschko to beat Fury twice.

[Bricks]

The Body Snatcher was not a slow fighter at all. He was fast and a very complete boxer. With that speed he beats Duran at 154lbs. It wasn't a good weight for The Hands of Stone

McCallum was not fast. Watch his speed against others.

I saw the video vs The Hitman in a sparring session. He looked fast to me with that jab

In his prime mccallum was made to look slow and a step behind by kalambay and curry.both were brilliant boxers and even a faded curry outsped mike for five rounds...but the fact is mike eventually beat both....mike was quick conversely he beat watson to the punch and graham he matched in speed.

Overall a very exceptional fighter