Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

The Hardest Punching Middleweight in History

Gerald McClellan
8
13%
Nigel Benn
1
2%
Thomas Hearns
2
3%
Rocky Graziano
2
3%
Sugar Ray Robinson
3
5%
Julian Jackson
26
43%
Florentino Fernandez
1
2%
Bennie Briscoe
0
No votes
Others?
17
28%
 
Total votes: 60

Kalan
Super Middleweight
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Kalan »

Counter-puncher wrote:So by definition any fighter who tko's another fighter is the superior puncher of the two?
NOPE!!! ... don't put words in my mouth... Jimmy Young might have stopped Foreman in a 15 round fight...

But if 2 great punchers meet and 1 bites the dust early??? ... That gives you a clue... Bob Foster took out Middleweight Dick Tiger like nothing... Joe Frazier took out Light Heavyweight Bob Foster like nothing... George Foreman took out small Heavyweight Joe Frazier like nothing..

There weren't any real good boxers among those 4 guys except Bob Foster...and Foster was the only one who was chinny... But iron chins and masterly skills didn't determine the outcome of those 3 fights... Size, strength, and punching power did.
elmersalsa
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by elmersalsa »

Kalan wrote:
Counter-puncher wrote:So by definition any fighter who tko's another fighter is the superior puncher of the two?
NOPE!!! ... don't put words in my mouth... Jimmy Young might have stopped Foreman in a 15 round fight...

But if 2 great punchers meet and 1 bites the dust early??? ... That gives you a clue... Bob Foster took out Middleweight Dick Tiger like nothing... Joe Frazier took out Light Heavyweight Bob Foster like nothing... George Foreman took out small Heavyweight Joe Frazier like nothing..

There weren't any real good boxers among those 4 guys except Bob Foster...and Foster was the only one who was chinny... But iron chins and masterly skills didn't determine the outcome of those 3 fights... Size, strength, and punching power did.
Kalan. Are you saying in the above statements that Smokin' Joe, Big George and the great Dick Tiger weren't great boxers?
hhaehre
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by hhaehre »

Kalan wrote: Louis burned out quickly..the Walcott and Charles fights proved that beyond any doubt...
The longest reigning heavyweight champion in history burned out quickly?
Kalan
Super Middleweight
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Kalan »

Right... Louis was burning out when he was still champion... Golf, night life, and women.

Mike Tyson burned out early too... Mike fought until he was 38 but it didn't mean he wasn't hitting the skids... Tyson had 10 X the competition Louis had so he lost a few more fights than Louis... Lewis's toughest competition was Walcott, a small Heavyweight who had about 10 losses - and Charles who had fought most of his career as a Middleweight and LHW.. There weren't any Lewis's or Holyfield's around who went 6'2" X 218 and 6'5" X 250.
gilgamesh
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by gilgamesh »

Kalan wrote:Right... Louis was burning out when he was still champion... Golf, night life, and women.

Mike Tyson burned out early too... Mike fought until he was 38 but it didn't mean he wasn't hitting the skids... Tyson had 10 X the competition Louis had so he lost a few more fights than Louis... Lewis's toughest competition was Walcott, a small Heavyweight who had about 10 losses - and Charles who had fought most of his career as a Middleweight and LHW.. There weren't any Lewis's or Holyfield's around who went 6'2" X 218 and 6'5" X 250.
I'd say Joe Louis' competition was better than Mike's.
Kalan
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Kalan »

elmersalsa wrote:
Kalan wrote:
Counter-puncher wrote:So by definition any fighter who tko's another fighter is the superior puncher of the two?
NOPE!!! ... don't put words in my mouth... Jimmy Young might have stopped Foreman in a 15 round fight...

But if 2 great punchers meet and 1 bites the dust early??? ... That gives you a clue... Bob Foster took out Middleweight Dick Tiger like nothing... Joe Frazier took out Light Heavyweight Bob Foster like nothing... George Foreman took out small Heavyweight Joe Frazier like nothing..

There weren't any real good boxers among those 4 guys except Bob Foster...and Foster was the only one who was chinny... But iron chins and masterly skills didn't determine the outcome of those 3 fights... Size, strength, and punching power did.
Kalan. Are you saying in the above statements that Smokin' Joe, Big George and the great Dick Tiger weren't great boxers?
RIGHT!!! ... They were great fighters... Like Rocky Marciano admitted.., "I wasn't a good boxer. I just kept throwing until they went."
Kalan
Super Middleweight
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Kalan »

gilgamesh wrote:
Kalan wrote:Right... Louis was burning out when he was still champion... Golf, night life, and women.

Mike Tyson burned out early too... Mike fought until he was 38 but it didn't mean he wasn't hitting the skids... Tyson had 10 X the competition Louis had so he lost a few more fights than Louis... Lewis's toughest competition was Walcott, a small Heavyweight who had about 10 losses - and Charles who had fought most of his career as a Middleweight and LHW.. There weren't any Lewis's or Holyfield's around who went 6'2" X 218 and 6'5" X 250.
I'd say Joe Louis' competition was better than Mike's.
LMFAO!!!! ... Who from the 1940's would you match against Tony Tucker, Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, James Smith, Frank Bruno, Evander Holyfield, and Lennox Lewis??? ... and all the opponents who were available in Tyson's day who MIke DIDN'T fight? Such as Tua.. Ibeabuchi.. Mercer.. Bowe.. McCall etc???

In contrast they were beating the canebrakes to find opponents for Louis... and came up with candidates for the "Bum of the Month Club"
gilgamesh
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by gilgamesh »

Jersey Joe Walcott, John Henry Lewis, Max Schmeling, Ezzard Charles and Rocky Marciano would've all been a handful for fighters in most any era.
hhaehre
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by hhaehre »

Kalan wrote:Right... Louis was burning out when he was still champion... Golf, night life, and women.
That's not what you said, you said "he burned out QUICKLY". However, since he held the title longer than anyone in history I think we can all agree that your statement could not be more wrong. In fact no other heavyweight champion in history burned out slower than Louis which means that your statement would have been more correct leveled against ANY other heavyweight champion. Nice going
Kalan
Super Middleweight
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Kalan »

That's what I call burning out quickly... When you could have kept it going for many more years with a little discipline and discretion... but the competition was so miserable that you just slide down to their level.. Kind of like Mike Tyson.. At one point Mike thought all he needed to do was show up.
gilgamesh
Cruiserweight
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by gilgamesh »

Kalan wrote:That's what I call burning out quickly... When you could have kept it going for many more years with a little discipline and discretion... but the competition was so miserable that you just slide down to their level.. Kind of like Mike Tyson.. At one point Mike thought all he needed to do was show up.
Joe Louis has more title defenses than any Boxer in the sports history, but he burned out quickly? How in the hell does your mind come to these kinds of conclusions?
Counter-puncher
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Counter-puncher »

Ffs cant you all just ignore him?
Kalan
Super Middleweight
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Kalan »

gilgamesh wrote:
Kalan wrote:That's what I call burning out quickly... When you could have kept it going for many more years with a little discipline and discretion... but the competition was so miserable that you just slide down to their level.. Kind of like Mike Tyson.. At one point Mike thought all he needed to do was show up.
Joe Louis has more title defenses than any Boxer in the sports history, but he burned out quickly? How in the hell does your mind come to these kinds of conclusions?
You're arguing semantics... If a guy burns out at 34 rather than 38.. for me that's burning out quickly... Whether it's burning out moderately quickly or VERY quickly is immaterial... He could have gone a lot longer if he had a lot more discipline.
keithmoonhangover
Cruiserweight
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by keithmoonhangover »

Ketchel.
keithmoonhangover
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by keithmoonhangover »

Kalan wrote:
gilgamesh wrote:
Kalan wrote:That's what I call burning out quickly... When you could have kept it going for many more years with a little discipline and discretion... but the competition was so miserable that you just slide down to their level.. Kind of like Mike Tyson.. At one point Mike thought all he needed to do was show up.
Joe Louis has more title defenses than any Boxer in the sports history, but he burned out quickly? How in the hell does your mind come to these kinds of conclusions?
You're arguing semantics... If a guy burns out at 34 rather than 38.. for me that's burning out quickly... Whether it's burning out moderately quickly or VERY quickly is immaterial... He could have gone a lot longer if he had a lot more discipline.
:confused:
Kalan
Super Middleweight
Posts: 10083
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Kalan »

Ketchel could hit...

Jack Johnson agreed to let Ketchel go the distance so they could both make money fighting each other... Ketchel tried to double cross Johnson and lined him up for a big shot... He knocked the much bigger man down, but Johnson was angered more than hurt... Johnson got up fuming and iced a charging Ketchel with his next punch.. The ripping uppercut embedded a bunch of Ketchel's teeth in Johnson's glove.
tad
Heavyweight
Heavyweight
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by tad »

Al Hostak
Kalan
Super Middleweight
Posts: 10083
Joined: 23 Sep 2012, 23:22

Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Kalan »

1. Golovkin
2. Ketchel
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Monzon
5. Toney
6. Lemieux
7. McCallum
8. Pavlik
9. Pirog
10. Valdez
Sometimes a boxer lands a perfect punch and scores a spectacular KO such as Martinez, Nunn, and Robinson did in career highlight KO's that put an opponent out who's never been stopped before. Consistency is more important.
Jaywheel
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Jaywheel »

Nice list. :TU:
elmersalsa
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by elmersalsa »

Jaywheel wrote:Nice list. :TU:
It's not a great list without Julian "The Hawk" Jackson as one of not only all time best punching middleweights, but pound per pound that we have ever witnessed
elmersalsa
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by elmersalsa »

Kalan wrote:1. Golovkin
2. Ketchel
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Monzon
5. Toney
6. Lemieux
7. McCallum
8. Pavlik
9. Pirog
10. Valdez
Sometimes a boxer lands a perfect punch and scores a spectacular KO such as Martinez, Nunn, and Robinson did in career highlight KO's that put an opponent out who's never been stopped before. Consistency is more important.
A middleweight best puncher list without Julian "The Hawk" Jackson is like saying the great Joe Louis or Big George ain't great top ten heavys
SaadOffTheDeck
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

Jackson wasn't quite as brutal at Middleweight. Cyclone Hart, Ketchel or Golovkin for me.
Kalan
Super Middleweight
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Kalan »

elmersalsa wrote:
Kalan wrote:1. Golovkin
2. Ketchel
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Monzon
5. Toney
6. Lemieux
7. McCallum
8. Pavlik
9. Pirog
10. Valdez
Sometimes a boxer lands a perfect punch and scores a spectacular KO such as Martinez, Nunn, and Robinson did in career highlight KO's that put an opponent out who's never been stopped before. Consistency is more important.
A middleweight best puncher list without Julian "The Hawk" Jackson is like saying the great Joe Louis or Big George ain't great top ten heavys
Probably... With Top-12 he's on the list... But I don't see him getting Benny Briscoe or Daniel Jacobs out like Valdez and Pirog did... There's been a lot of terrific punching middleweights or he would be up there on my list... The way he iced Norris and Graham -- he had a real good KO stroke.
Jaywheel
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by Jaywheel »

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Jackson wasn't quite as brutal at Middleweight. Cyclone Hart, Ketchel or Golovkin for me.
Yep. Concussive at 154, still powerful at 160 but could be handled.
jas80s
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Re: Hardest Punching Middleweight of All-Time

Post by jas80s »

RIGHT!!! ... They were great fighters... Like Rocky Marciano admitted.., "I wasn't a good boxer. I just kept throwing until they went."[/quote]

.
That's a very interesting quote from Marciano, where did you find it? I tried searching for it, but i came up with nothing.

In my observation of Marciano, he seemed careful not to come off as overly boastful or a braggart, characteristics I would bet he found distasteful.

But, he also struck me as someone who would never suggest that he wasn't highly capable in the ring, seeming to believe most strongly that nobody could withstand what he brought to the table in a fight. Maybe in his mind that meant his conditioning and power over his acumen, but coming right out and saying that? I am surprised.

This is an interesting quote that evidently came from Marciano: http://www.theboxingmagazine.com/is-roc ... overrated/

“I became a dedicated fighter because I had single-mindedness, purpose of winning the title. I just overcame a lot of handicaps. A lot of people thought I had too short a reach to be a Heavyweight Champion. A lot of people thought I wasn’t big enough to be Heavyweight Champion. I had the big legs and was not too fast in the ring. The one thing I really had was strength. Body punching became a very important phase of my fighting. I hurt many opponents and was able to bring their guard down so I could eventually punch them to the chin and take them out.”

He says he only had strength in there, but I can't tell if he was still talking about what people supposedly said about him, or if he was actually saying thta in his own opinion, he really only had strength; and I must admit, I would have found that hard to believe before I saw it and the more I think about it, the more I think he was still talking about the things that those who underestimated him might have said. Still, he also says he overcame a lot of handicaps, but that doesn't necessarily mean that not being a good boxer was one of them, he might have been talking more about being smaller for instance. He still seemed to think he was pretty damn special, I mean this is how that quote started:

Rocky Marciano himself said shortly before his death, “I can only say is, I enjoyed it, I liked it. I never really knew fear. I never was really hurt. And I just think that… in my prime, I could have fought with anybody alive.”

Anyway, I would be interested to know where you found the quote by Marciano. Perhaps it would shed more light on how he rated himself.
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