Did Golovkin get lucky against Lemieux

[Ruthless-RKO]

Lemieux took a knee in round 5 and Golovkin, who looked like he was heading for a punch just before Lemieux took a knee hit him on the head, although it appears he apologized to the ref soon after.

https://youtu.be/isp94ML7m2M?t=1591

We've seen boxers take a knee many times, whether they are pulling a Montell Griffin or just genuinely fazed.

Was Lemieux genuinely fazed? Did he pull a Griffin? Who knows?

[boxing_rocks]

Golovkin did get lucky to not get DQ'ed after hitting Lemieux who took the knee. Of course, Lemieux winning that fight would be ridiculous.

[Ruthless-RKO]

Golovkin did get lucky to not get DQ'ed after hitting Lemieux who took the knee. Of course, Lemieux winning that fight would be ridiculous.

I hate the fact that RJJ got DQ'd in his fight, he would have gone 50-0 if it wasn't for that, is there a legit rule to say if you hit a fighter who takes a knee, that you should be docked points or DQ'd?

[jezzamundo]

In answer to the title question - a definite yes. I don't think it was a deliberate foul, but it was a foul nonetheless. Lemieux could easily have pulled a Andre Dirrell and faked being KOd to get a DQ win, but he didn't and I give him credit for that. I think the referee should have warned GGG and given Lemieux as much time as he needed to recover. To make matters worse, GGG then hit Lemieux after the bell - also unintentional, but not good. Defintely not worth diqualification, though, I'm glad Lemieux responded how he did - he won my respect for that.

[Enlightened-One]

... is there a legit rule to say if you hit a fighter who takes a knee, that you should be docked points or DQ'd?

Boxing is not MMA! You can't do ground-and-pound in boxing.

There are official rules in all the sports governing bodies stating that it is illegal to punch an opponent when they are "down" or rising from the canvas.

Instead, there are mandatory 8 counts when an opponent "touches" the canvas, which generally leads to the fighter "taking a knee" being docked a couple of points in the scoring of that round.

[Lackeos]

Golovkin did get lucky to not get DQ'ed after hitting Lemieux who took the knee. Of course, Lemieux winning that fight would be ridiculous.

I hate the fact that RJJ got DQ'd in his fight, he would have gone 50-0 if it wasn't for that, is there a legit rule to say if you hit a fighter who takes a knee, that you should be docked points or DQ'd?

Disqualification is pretty much the standard penalty for hitting a fighter while he is down. Sakio Bika got DQ'ed against Jean-Paul Mendy. RJJ got DQ'ed against Montell Griffin. Arthur Abraham got DQ'ed against Andre Dirrell. Humberto Soto got DQ'ed against Francisco Lorenzo.

Whether a DQ was warranted in the Golovkin fight would be a matter of how long Lemieux's knee touched the mat before the punch landed and how realistically Golovkin could have seen the knee touch down from his vantage point. I watched it about 25-30 times and it seemed kind of close.

On a related note, fighters aren't supposed to take a knee. You may go down after you've been hit by a punch. But if you go down voluntarily after having not been hit so that you can rest, you could get DQ'ed for that. Had Lemieux been falling to the mat legitimately and not breaking the rules, a disqualification of Golovkin may have been more probable. The ref must have been like "I don't even know which one of them to DQ first."

[hulkmaniac]

Golovkin did get lucky to not get DQ'ed after hitting Lemieux who took the knee. Of course, Lemieux winning that fight would be ridiculous.

I hate the fact that RJJ got DQ'd in his fight, he would have gone 50-0 if it wasn't for that, is there a legit rule to say if you hit a fighter who takes a knee, that you should be docked points or DQ'd?

Disqualification is pretty much the standard penalty for hitting a fighter while he is down. Sakio Bika got DQ'ed against Jean-Paul Mendy. RJJ got DQ'ed against Montell Griffin. Arthur Abraham got DQ'ed against Andre Dirrell. Humberto Soto got DQ'ed against Francisco Lorenzo.

Whether a DQ was warranted in the Golovkin fight would be a matter of how long Lemieux's knee touched the mat before the punch landed and how realistically Golovkin could have seen the knee touch down from his vantage point. I watched it about 25-30 times and it seemed kind of close.

On a related note, fighters aren't supposed to take a knee. You may go down after you've been hit by a punch. But if you go down voluntarily after having not been hit so that you can rest, you could get DQ'ed for that. Had Lemieux been falling to the mat legitimately and not breaking the rules, a disqualification of Golovkin may have been more probable. The ref must have been like "I don't even know which one of them to DQ first."

But lately, there have been fights which a boxer gets buzzed and people say he should've taken a knee. Korobov vs Andy Lee comes to mind.

[Kalan]

Fighters who have great killer instincts sometimes hit an opponent when he's down... They're so intent on finishing their opponent -- but if his knee or glove is down you can't hit him.. And they know this damned well but Instinct takes over -- even veteran boxers hit opponents when they're down because the desire to win is so strong.. Gamboa, Foreman, Marco Antonio Barrera, Golovkin, Benn, Pacquiao, Roy Jones, Abraham, Terry Norris, and many others have hit downed opponents.. It rarely results in a DQ---but a quick thinking opponent like Dirrell or Griffin and you're staring at a DQ loss---so you need to rein those horses in when you get your opponent going and it's not as easy as it seems.. You have a wide open head in front of you and your only thought is demolishing it. It takes a lot of level headedness and restraint not to -- and you only have to get it wrong once.

[Enlightened-One]

But lately, there have been fights which a boxer gets buzzed and people say he should've taken a knee. Korobov vs Andy Lee comes to mind.

One of the first things any boxer is taught, is also the last thing they’re told before the start of any contest, which is to “protect yourself at all times”… and “taking a knee” introduces the inevitable risk that the referee could stop the fight altogether – the minimum punishment would be the automatic docking of two points from the scoring of that round.

When a boxer appears hurt, exhausted, no longer blocking/avoiding punches, nor landing any of their own… and they have to resort to “taking a knee” for respite, then this suggest that the fighter “touching” the canvas can no longer “protect” themselves “at all times” using orthodox means... and this puts the ref in a difficult position.

Even if the fighter touching the canvas doesn’t get stopped by the referee, such actions are perceived as Hollywood-style neon lights informing the opponent that they’re hurt real bad and on the verge of being stopped.

I’m no expert in the subject matter, but my guess is that there are more “cons” that there are “pros” in regards to “taking a knee.”

[jamesmcdonnell]

Golovkin did get lucky to not get DQ'ed after hitting Lemieux who took the knee. Of course, Lemieux winning that fight would be ridiculous.

I hate the fact that RJJ got DQ'd in his fight, he would have gone 50-0 if it wasn't for that, is there a legit rule to say if you hit a fighter who takes a knee, that you should be docked points or DQ'd?

Disqualification is pretty much the standard penalty for hitting a fighter while he is down. Sakio Bika got DQ'ed against Jean-Paul Mendy. RJJ got DQ'ed against Montell Griffin. Arthur Abraham got DQ'ed against Andre Dirrell. Humberto Soto got DQ'ed against Francisco Lorenzo.

Whether a DQ was warranted in the Golovkin fight would be a matter of how long Lemieux's knee touched the mat before the punch landed and how realistically Golovkin could have seen the knee touch down from his vantage point. I watched it about 25-30 times and it seemed kind of close.

On a related note, fighters aren't supposed to take a knee. You may go down after you've been hit by a punch. But if you go down voluntarily after having not been hit so that you can rest, you could get DQ'ed for that. Had Lemieux been falling to the mat legitimately and not breaking the rules, a disqualification of Golovkin may have been more probable. The ref must have been like "I don't even know which one of them to DQ first."

Nothing in the rules says a fighter cannot take a knee at any stage, they will most likely lose the round 10-8 and also risk the fight being stopped as a fighter voluntarily taking a knee is a sign of distress. However it is not a foul or grounds for a DQ.

[boxing_rocks]

But lately, there have been fights which a boxer gets buzzed and people say he should've taken a knee. Korobov vs Andy Lee comes to mind.

One of the first things any boxer is taught, is also the last thing they’re told before the start of any contest, which is to “protect yourself at all times”… and “taking a knee” introduces the inevitable risk that the referee could stop the fight altogether – the minimum punishment would be the automatic docking of two points from the scoring of that round.

When a boxer appears hurt, exhausted, no longer blocking/avoiding punches, nor landing any of their own… and they have to resort to “taking a knee” for respite, then this suggest that the fighter “touching” the canvas can no longer “protect” themselves “at all times” using orthodox means... and this puts the ref in a difficult position.

Even if the fighter touching the canvas doesn’t get stopped by the referee, such actions are perceived as Hollywood-style neon lights informing the opponent that they’re hurt real bad and on the verge of being stopped.

I’m no expert in the subject matter, but my guess is that there are more “cons” that there are “pros” in regards to “taking a knee.”

Boxers know when their opponent is hurt most of the time anyway. In Korobov's case, taking a knee to recover for a few seconds would be a smart decision. Lemieux was hurt by a liver shot and literally couldn't protect himself if the fight continued, so he basically didn't have a choice.

[Enlightened-One]

Boxers know when their opponent is hurt most of the time anyway.

Yes – I agree with this point.

However, “taking a knee” though, would surely add more leverage to their decision to finish off the job – compelling them to commit themselves 100% to attacking with reckless abandon, whereas the slightest element of uncertainty may restrain their attack to more conservative levels.

In Korobov's case, taking a knee to recover for a few seconds would be a smart decision.

Possibly – I can see your point.

However, this action can place the referee in a difficult situation whereby they may have legitimate reason to believe that the fighter “touching” the canvas can no longer “protect” themselves “at all times” using orthodox means... resulting in the fight being stopped, when it may not have been if the fighter remained on their feet.

I accept your point though.

Lemieux was hurt by a liver shot and literally couldn't protect himself if the fight continued, so he basically didn't have a choice.

He had a choice, but he was caught between a rock and a hard place. The risks were severe with either option he could have decided upon. Only hindsight can educate us on the right choice.

[Lackeos]

I hate the fact that RJJ got DQ'd in his fight, he would have gone 50-0 if it wasn't for that, is there a legit rule to say if you hit a fighter who takes a knee, that you should be docked points or DQ'd?

Disqualification is pretty much the standard penalty for hitting a fighter while he is down. Sakio Bika got DQ'ed against Jean-Paul Mendy. RJJ got DQ'ed against Montell Griffin. Arthur Abraham got DQ'ed against Andre Dirrell. Humberto Soto got DQ'ed against Francisco Lorenzo.

Whether a DQ was warranted in the Golovkin fight would be a matter of how long Lemieux's knee touched the mat before the punch landed and how realistically Golovkin could have seen the knee touch down from his vantage point. I watched it about 25-30 times and it seemed kind of close.

On a related note, fighters aren't supposed to take a knee. You may go down after you've been hit by a punch. But if you go down voluntarily after having not been hit so that you can rest, you could get DQ'ed for that. Had Lemieux been falling to the mat legitimately and not breaking the rules, a disqualification of Golovkin may have been more probable. The ref must have been like "I don't even know which one of them to DQ first."

Nothing in the rules says a fighter cannot take a knee at any stage, they will most likely lose the round 10-8 and also risk the fight being stopped as a fighter voluntarily taking a knee is a sign of distress. However it is not a foul or grounds for a DQ.

3.38 The following acts shall not be permitted during a Contest:-
(a) hitting below the belt:
(b) using the “pivot blow”:
(c) hitting on the back of the head or neck:
(d) kidney punching;
(e) hitting with the open glove, the inside, or the butt or the back of the hand, or with the wrist or elbow;
(f) holding, butting, or careless use of the head, shouldering, wrestling or roughing:
(g) not trying;
(h) persistently ducking below the waistline;
(i) intentional falling without receiving a blow;
(j) failing to break when so ordered, or striking or attempting to strike an opponent on the break;
(k) deliberately striking a opponent when he is dropping to the floor or when he is down;
(l) hitting an opponent after the termination of a round;
(m) any other conduct which a Referee may deem foul;

Anything on the order of refusing to fight, running out of the ring, going down without being hit (including taking a knee), outright running from the opponent, etc. can potentially result in you immediately losing the fight. The only reason that some fighters haven't been dq'ed for taking a knee is that time since the last punch connected is subjective and not measured in exact seconds, and even trained referees don't always enforce the rules to perfection.

The Current Scene had an entire thread about the topic of taking knees about a year ago. We got to the bottom of the motherf*cker.

[Kalan]

Disqualification is pretty much the standard penalty for hitting a fighter while he is down. Sakio Bika got DQ'ed against Jean-Paul Mendy. RJJ got DQ'ed against Montell Griffin. Arthur Abraham got DQ'ed against Andre Dirrell. Humberto Soto got DQ'ed against Francisco Lorenzo.

Whether a DQ was warranted in the Golovkin fight would be a matter of how long Lemieux's knee touched the mat before the punch landed and how realistically Golovkin could have seen the knee touch down from his vantage point. I watched it about 25-30 times and it seemed kind of close.

On a related note, fighters aren't supposed to take a knee. You may go down after you've been hit by a punch. But if you go down voluntarily after having not been hit so that you can rest, you could get DQ'ed for that. Had Lemieux been falling to the mat legitimately and not breaking the rules, a disqualification of Golovkin may have been more probable. The ref must have been like "I don't even know which one of them to DQ first."

Nothing in the rules says a fighter cannot take a knee at any stage, they will most likely lose the round 10-8 and also risk the fight being stopped as a fighter voluntarily taking a knee is a sign of distress. However it is not a foul or grounds for a DQ.

3.38 The following acts shall not be permitted during a Contest:-
(a) hitting below the belt:
(b) using the “pivot blow”:
(c) hitting on the back of the head or neck:
(d) kidney punching;
(e) hitting with the open glove, the inside, or the butt or the back of the hand, or with the wrist or elbow;
(f) holding, butting, or careless use of the head, shouldering, wrestling or roughing:
(g) not trying;
(h) persistently ducking below the waistline;
(i) intentional falling without receiving a blow;
(j) failing to break when so ordered, or striking or attempting to strike an opponent on the break;
(k) deliberately striking a opponent when he is dropping to the floor or when he is down;
(l) hitting an opponent after the termination of a round;
(m) any other conduct which a Referee may deem foul;

Anything on the order of refusing to fight, running out of the ring, going down without being hit (including taking a knee), outright running from the opponent, etc. can potentially result in you immediately losing the fight. The only reason that some fighters haven't been dq'ed for taking a knee is that time since the last punch connected is subjective and not measured in exact seconds, and even trained referees don't always enforce the rules to perfection.

The Current Scene had an entire thread about the topic of taking knees about a year ago. We got to the bottom of the motherf*cker.

Taking a knee is not refusing to fight.. Taking a knee is not falling without being hit.. Taking a knee is strategically giving yourself a few seconds of respite to clear your head.. It's a legitimate tactic.. Sergei Liakhovich used it in his win over Lamon Brewster, which got him a world title.. And I agree on Korobov in his Lee fight.. He was winning the fight until he got tagged with a big shot that didn't put him down.. Since that loss he's nowhere and fought two 8-rounders in the last year... When you're from Eastern Europe or Cuba you'd better win every damned fight.

[gilgamesh]

Yeah Golovkin has actually done that a few other times. I always worry it'll get him DQ'd at some point. Especially if it got him DQ'd against someone like Canelo or Brook or whatever. There'd be no rematch those guys would just take their "win" over him and never look back.

[Shirow]

Golovkin was lucky not to get any punishment. The correct course of action by the ref i think would have to been count the KO (as GGG scored it legitimately), give Lemiuex up to 5 minutes to recover and deduct a point from GGG.

Lemieux showed great character to carry on and not complain where many (looking at your Broner) would have tried the old Montell faceplant DQ attempt.
Lem showed great character just taking his first defence against Golovkin without a cream puff homecoming gimme which most would have forgiven him for.

[Oiky]

Golovkin was lucky not to get any punishment. The correct course of action by the ref i think would have to been count the KO (as GGG scored it legitimately), give Lemiuex up to 5 minutes to recover and deduct a point from GGG.

Lemieux showed great character to carry on and not complain where many (looking at your Broner) would have tried the old Montell faceplant DQ attempt.
Lem showed great character just taking his first defence against Golovkin without a cream puff homecoming gimme which most would have forgiven him for.

Good post

[Enlightened-One]

In my mind, the only difference between Roy Jones Jr’s disqualification loss against Montell Griffin and Gennady’s actions in his fight against Lemieux is a punch delay of about half a second.

Both bouts were under the jurisdiction of the WBC, so the same rules “should” theoretically apply. However, the WBC’s rules only state that this situation “may” result in either a disqualification or a points’ deduction.

So for the fighter that hits an opponent when they’re on the canvas, the difference between receiving only a stern telling off from the referee, whilst still being credited with the knock-down… or receiving an instant disqualification, is about half a second.

I wonder what the criterion is to only receive a point’s deduction. ¼ second?

I’m not suggesting that Golovkin should have been disqualified, but it is interesting that the refs have the freedom to interpret the rules however they deem fit, which is sensible, but obviously runs the risk of occasional controversies.

[Ruthless-RKO]

In my mind, the only difference between Roy Jones Jr’s disqualification loss against Montell Griffin and Gennady’s actions in his fight against Lemieux is a punch delay of about half a second.

Both bouts were under the jurisdiction of the WBC, so the same rules “should” theoretically apply. However, the WBC’s rules only state that this situation “may” result in either a disqualification or a points’ deduction.

Which jurisdiction was Abraham vs. Dirrell? I believe Abraham did land a punch after he saw Dirrell go down, but only got DQ'd due to fact that Dirrell was a great actor.

[Ruthless-RKO]

https://youtu.be/0mDqlWIbIhA?t=511

What hapened here? Was it ruled a slip? Barrett hit him blatant on the floor. Got docked a point.

[Horse]

Disgusting behaviour from Golovkin.

He should have had two points deducted for that.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Disgusting behaviour from Golovkin.

He should have had two points deducted for that.

Are you serious - can you name an occasion a referee took two points from a fighter for hitting someone when down. As you're not known for bursts of humour, I can only assume you are serious.

[gilgamesh]

Disgusting behaviour from Golovkin.

He should have had two points deducted for that.

I'd actually have been happy if he'd lost a point for it as it might've made him more cautious not to do it again in the future. A point deduction or two in the Lemieux fight would've made no difference.

[Horse]

Are you serious - can you name an occasion a referee took two points from a fighter for hitting someone when down. As you're not known for bursts of humour, I can only assume you are serious.

I can't recall an occasion from memory, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.

Does anyone think that Golovkin simply didn't realise that Lemieux had dropped to a knee?

[gilgamesh]

Are you serious - can you name an occasion a referee took two points from a fighter for hitting someone when down. As you're not known for bursts of humour, I can only assume you are serious.

I can't recall an occasion from memory, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.

Does anyone think that Golovkin simply didn't realise that Lemieux had dropped to a knee?

I don't think it was an intentional foul if that's what you're asking I just figure Golovkin is such an aggressive finisher that he was still throwing punches when Lemieux dropped to the knee. He pulled back the force of the shot when Lemieux was on the ground, and it landed with minimal force, not enough to do any kind of damage.

Good thing he wasn't in the ring with Andre Dirrell that night. He would've started flopping around like a fish.