Prime M. Ali Vs Prime J. Young?

[aajayunlimited]

I never saw the fight between the two, but heard that it was a fight that most thought Young won what actually happened in the fight; however, I also heard that Young dove outside of the ring ropes to keep from getting hit 3+ times as a tactic to avoid getting hit! Could the judges have felt like disqualifying Young?

Anyway, what happens if heavyweights Muhammad Ali and Jimmy Young met in their primes? Would Young's counterpunching style work versus the most gifted fighter as far as hitting opponents in boxing history?

[keithmoonhangover]

Prime Ali, before the ban, walks away with it.

[tagjohnson]

Ali wins a decision in the most mind-numbingly boring fight in history.

[gp.]

Kalan will be along in a minute; he's over in another thread claiming that Dillian Whyte is demonstrably and obviously better than Jimmy Young. Which means presumably he might even give Ali a chance in this one.

[davie]

I watched it the other day and scored it clearly to Young.

But the fight was lost by a thoroughly out of shape, past his best and utterly disinterested Ali.

Young would be in serious trouble versus Muhammad at his peak.

I don't think Youngs style causes any problems either, he wouldn't get near Ali at his dancing best

[Tuan_Jim]

Prime Ali wins every round in a dull fight.

[Syntax Error]

Prime Ali wins every round in a dull fight.

Seconded.

I can't envisage any other result.

[Cygnus475]

Even in his prime Ali would be frustrated by the philly slickster. He eventually finds a way to win a very frustrating and incredibly stalker fight. Lots of you-hit-me-no-YOU-hit-ME moments where even the ref gets mad and shoves them onto each other to keep the fight going.

[scorpio83]

Prime Muhammad Ali by decision.

[Kalan]

I like to contrast Jimmy Young's fight with Gerry Cooney - with Michael Spinks' fight with Gerry Cooney... Day and Night in those efforts

It's not just your age and your talent ... It's how confident you are at the time... what your self image is at the time... who believes in you... what kind of personal problems and issues you're battling at the time -- and how your work ethic, habits, and access to the resources you need are affected by all this. What happens to a lot of boxers is they break down mentally, and emotionally before they break down physically -- and Young and Cooney were 2 of those.

[BoxBuzz]

I like to contrast Jimmy Young's fight with Gerry Cooney - with Michael Spinks' fight with Gerry Cooney... Day and Night in those efforts

It's not just your age and your talent ... It's how confident you are at the time... what your self image is at the time... who believes in you... what kind of personal problems and issues you're battling at the time -- and how your work ethic, habits, and access to the resources you need are affected by all this. What happens to a lot of boxers is they break down mentally, and emotionally before they break down physically -- and Young and Cooney were 2 of those.

Lucid, concise, and succinct. You have been paying attention after all.

[Kalan]

And you haven't.

[BoxBuzz]

And you haven't.

Did I mention edgy, and judgmental?


It's all good, you are without a doubt a good educator.....just not always on the subject matter that you imagine yourself to be teaching.

[Kalan]

One can only teach those with intelligence, open mindedness, and a willingness to learn. You're sadly lacking in those respects -- I.e. you still haven't studied the Valero and Armstrong fights as you imagined you would. To find out which one walked in head first, with little finesse, got punched up, and suffered dozens of losses -- and which one boxed and punched extraordinarily well... won all his fights... rarely got hit solidly, and was never forced to go the distance. You just go with the consensus, let others do your thinking, and that's the end of your argument.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Valero's head is straight up in the air. Horrendous defense, a KO waiting to happen. Unfortunately, he quit life before that inevitable KO.

[Counter-puncher]

you are without a doubt a good educator.....just not always on the subject matter that you imagine yourself to be teaching.

Oh, credit where its due, that's nicely put

[BoxBuzz]

One can only teach those with intelligence, open mindedness, and a willingness to learn. You're sadly lacking in those respects -- I.e. you still haven't studied the Valero and Armstrong fights as you imagined you would. To find out which one walked in head first, with little finesse, got punched up, and suffered dozens of losses -- and which one boxed and punched extraordinarily well... won all his fights... rarely got hit solidly, and was never forced to go the distance. You just go with the consensus, let others do your thinking, and that's the end of your argument.

It's interesting how assumptions one has about others tells us so much about ourselves.

I don't go with consensus without critical review, but often times on this forum, consensus is reached and I end up agreeing with it. I've had my opinions change by those who can make a good case. And honestly some of boxing is subjective, and prone to psyche aspects....something I enjoy reflecting on. Some would say I go my own way on many subjects....whether I'm hard headed about it, or I'm seeing something others don't see is still in dispute.

Armstrong being overly suspect, and Valero being among the elite are two that I disagree with you on.

By the way, I think Ali would win this hypothetical...how about you? You've not opined thus far.

[tagjohnson]

And the previous several messages have what to do with Ali vs Young?

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Ali in a shut out

[Kalan]

One can only teach those with intelligence, open mindedness, and a willingness to learn. You're sadly lacking in those respects -- I.e. you still haven't studied the Valero and Armstrong fights as you imagined you would. To find out which one walked in head first, with little finesse, got punched up, and suffered dozens of losses -- and which one boxed and punched extraordinarily well... won all his fights... rarely got hit solidly, and was never forced to go the distance. You just go with the consensus, let others do your thinking, and that's the end of your argument.

It's interesting how assumptions one has about others tells us so much about ourselves.

I don't go with consensus without critical review, but often times on this forum, consensus is reached and I end up agreeing with it. I've had my opinions change by those who can make a good case. And honestly some of boxing is subjective, and prone to psyche aspects....something I enjoy reflecting on. Some would say I go my own way on many subjects....whether I'm hard headed about it, or I'm seeing something others don't see is still in dispute.

Armstrong being overly suspect, and Valero being among the elite are two that I disagree with you on.

By the way, I think Ali would win this hypothetical...how about you? You've not opined thus far.

Young would win if he were at his best and the judging were fair... but it would not be so Ali would win a D... And since you never checked out Armstrong and Valero you have nothing on which to base your opinion... Armstrong did lose a lot of fights and got tagged a lot because he walked in face first, shoving and butting... Plus he fought a lot of cherries to pad his record like crazy... and he still managed to look terrible, and not even try, when he fought somebody like Robinson... Were those things likely to happen to a peak Valero??? NO.

[tagjohnson]

And this has what to do with Ali vs Young?

[BoxBuzz]

Actually he did get his call in....Young beats Ali if fairly officiated.

That's a surprise call.....but it's a call nonetheless.

[Kalan]

Young was a clever boxer but not a clever businessman. He fought more for money than to get wins when he started pro. He allowed himself to be badly overmatched in some early fights. They wanted him to fight Earnie Shavers, a veteran campaigner, when he had 10 fights. He asked "How much is my end?" A more typical question from any boxer taking the long view would be "are you trying to get me killed?"

Young survived a couple of Shavers fights and learned how to box. The vastly experienced Ali saw little to fear in Young who was 17-4-2, but most keen observers thought Young won the fight. Young improvised what he believed was a clever tactic during the Ali fight. He stuck his upper body out between the ropes and out of range of Ali's punches. He didn't understand why anyone would be put off by this behavior. He found out later there's a rule against combatants leaving the ring of their own volition during a match. The tactic violated the rule in spirit and the judges didn't find it amusing. At any rate Young handily outscored Ali but lost the fight.

Young continued to improve. He reached his peak a few fights later with wins over Ron Lyle and George Foreman. He was boxing pretty well and found himself with substantial amounts of money -- which he didn’t use to further his career. He spend much of it on cocaine and other ill-advised pursuits. Soon he losing to the better Heavyweights. A little common sense would have helped Jimmy Young.

[Tony1244]

Young was a clever boxer but not a clever businessman. He fought more for money than to get wins when he started pro. He allowed himself to be badly overmatched in some early fights. They wanted him to fight Earnie Shavers, a veteran campaigner, when he had 10 fights. He asked "How much is my end?" A more typical question from any boxer taking the long view would be "are you trying to get me killed?"

Young survived a couple of Shavers fights and learned how to box. The vastly experienced Ali saw little to fear in Young who was 17-4-2, but most keen observers thought Young won the fight. Young improvised what he believed was a clever tactic during the Ali fight. He stuck his upper body out between the ropes and out of range of Ali's punches. He didn't understand why anyone would be put off by this behavior. He found out later there's a rule against combatants leaving the ring of their own volition during a match. The tactic violated the rule in spirit and the judges didn't find it amusing. At any rate Young handily outscored Ali but lost the fight.

Young continued to improve. He reached his peak a few fights later with wins over Ron Lyle and George Foreman. He was boxing pretty well and found himself with substantial amounts of money -- which he didn’t use to further his career. He spend much of it on cocaine and other ill-advised pursuits. Soon he losing to the better Heavyweights. A little common sense would have helped Jimmy Young.

How do you write all that and also come up with Wilt could have beaten Ali?

Good summation on Young. Jimmy beat Lyle once before the Ali fight. Amazing how he beat George Foreman and lost (twice) to Ocassio within a relatively short time frame.

[Kalan]

Young was a clever boxer but not a clever businessman. He fought more for money than to get wins when he started pro. He allowed himself to be badly overmatched in some early fights. They wanted him to fight Earnie Shavers, a veteran campaigner, when he had 10 fights. He asked "How much is my end?" A more typical question from any boxer taking the long view would be "are you trying to get me killed?"

Young survived a couple of Shavers fights and learned how to box. The vastly experienced Ali saw little to fear in Young who was 17-4-2, but most keen observers thought Young won the fight. Young improvised what he believed was a clever tactic during the Ali fight. He stuck his upper body out between the ropes and out of range of Ali's punches. He didn't understand why anyone would be put off by this behavior. He found out later there's a rule against combatants leaving the ring of their own volition during a match. The tactic violated the rule in spirit and the judges didn't find it amusing. At any rate Young handily outscored Ali but lost the fight.

Young continued to improve. He reached his peak a few fights later with wins over Ron Lyle and George Foreman. He was boxing pretty well and found himself with substantial amounts of money -- which he didn’t use to further his career. He spend much of it on cocaine and other ill-advised pursuits. Soon he losing to the better Heavyweights. A little common sense would have helped Jimmy Young.

How do you write all that and also come up with Wilt could have beaten Ali?

Good summation on Young. Jimmy beat Lyle once before the Ali fight. Amazing how he beat George Foreman and lost (twice) to Ocassio within a relatively short time frame.

Because Wilt Chamberlain WOULD have beaten Ali if Ali signed the contract... Ali had everything to lose (except the publicity the hype generated)... Chamberlain had everything to gain... Therefore the contract wasn't signed by Ali. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s