Prime Sugar Ray Robinson VS Prime SR Leonard

[elmersalsa]

Robinson is one strong welter but Leonard was smart with lightning feet and a master of ring generalship. Leonard by UD

At welterweight, yes. At middleweight, is another story.

[jbizzle20]

Robinson is one strong welter but Leonard was smart with lightning feet and a master of ring generalship. Leonard by UD

At welterweight, yes. At middleweight, is another story.

Possibly, but remember that Leonard only fought at middleweight when he was past his prime. Nobody knows how his speed would have carried up when he was in his prime. Even then, he looked pretty good against Hagler.

[elmersalsa]

Robinson is one strong welter but Leonard was smart with lightning feet and a master of ring generalship. Leonard by UD

At welterweight, yes. At middleweight, is another story.

Possibly, but remember that Leonard only fought at middleweight when he was past his prime. Nobody knows how his speed would have carried up when he was in his prime. Even then, he looked pretty good against Hagler.

Leonard was Not good enough to beat the original Sugar Man at 160 and beyond. Above 147, Leonard was not impressive.

[Ambling Alp II]

We have been over the "Leonard was not impressive over 147" BS over and over. Give it a rest.

[Kalan]

Not to beat a dead horse on this...but Leonard beat an undefeated Ayub Kalule, 36-0, for the Super Welterweight Title..

So that win and his victory over Marvin Halger, 62-2-2, were both over 147 and fairly impressive wins.. Leonard certainly didn't go on a tear at 160 and neither did Robinson...SRL had a special position in Boxing and fought select opponents.

[elmersalsa]

Bollocks! Leonard at welterweight was super fantastic.

But, beyond welterweight, not too crazy to be awed about. The great Thomas Hearns did better performances than he did going above welterweight.

Leonard above welterweight was not that good

[Ambling Alp II]

Lets use your own stupid logic that you use when trying to prop up a guy that you like: titles.

Titles mean a lot to you. You bring up minor titles like the NABF title or the Australian title when it can prop up an argument for one of your favorites.

Above welterweight, Leonard won world titles at four weight classes.

So by your own logic, that is pretty impressive.

[elmersalsa]

Lets use your own stupid logic that you use when trying to prop up a guy that you like: titles.

Titles mean a lot to you. You bring up minor titles like the NABF title or the Australian title when it can prop up an argument for one of your favorites.

Above welterweight, Leonard won world titles at four weight classes.

So by your own logic, that is pretty impressive.

By your STUPID LOGIC, Ambling Alp, we could go at it if you wish, Leonard won two titles in one night against a mediocre Canadian pretty boy that dropped him in the process. The Canadian Donny Lalonde, had to go down at least 7 pounds in a catchweight. Gimme a Break.

Ayub Kalule was outboxing him for 8 rounds.

Kevin Howard, a mediocre fighter at best, dropped him. What Leonard said after the fight? " I don't have it anymore". Marvelous in attendance, wished it was him in the ring with him that night. Tommy Hearns would've bust him up quick on that night, too. All we would have seen a retina rolling around the ring.

Marcos Geraldo had him on queer street.

The Hitman, a guy that was SHOT BY MANY CRITICS, in the rematch put him on the floor twice for crying out loud. A draw? MY ASS!

The third fight with the great Roberto Duran. What a great performance, right, Alp? Duran a washed up 38 year old champ, busted his lip when Leonard finally engaged to fight. Both were WASHED UP, right Alp? Or they were in their primes? You tell me.

He barely beats by running against Marvelous. A FADING MARVELOUS! And that was his best performance above 147? Get the FUUCK OUTTA HERE!

[elmersalsa]

Oh, I forgot: Terrible Terry Norris ABUSED and SMACKED Leonard around. Ah, ok. He was not in his prime, right? Everyone knows that. Well, the fight was also above 147. How about that?

Let's go 6 years later. A washed up Hector "Macho" Camacho knocked the fuuck out of Leonard. Was it at welterweight or at middleweight? You make the call, mister!

[Ambling Alp II]

Well, I tried.

[Kalan]

Bollocks! Leonard at welterweight was super fantastic.

But, beyond welterweight, not too crazy to be awed about. The great Thomas Hearns did better performances than he did going above welterweight.

Leonard above welterweight was not that good

Their fights vs Marv Hagler were above Welter... Leonard carried 3 yrs. of ring rust, but won anyway ... Tommy Hearns??? ... Smashed flat inside of 3 rounds

[Kalan]

Tommy Hearns never was brave enough to fight Terry Norris.. So how's he going to get his butt busted by him -- like he did versus Hagler and Barkley?

[Bricks]

norris v hearns at 154

It would be a 1st round one punch annihilation....or if norris made it beyond a round...

When exactly did tommy avoid norris kalan? 1987/88 when terry was a unknown welter with 2 losses at 4 round level and hearns was a 4 time champ at 160?

1989 when terry was diving facefirst to julian jackson and tommy was beating srl at 168?

Or 1991 when tommy was Lh champ and norris was struggling to beat a zombie version of don curry at 154?

After 1991 tommy campaigned at 175-180 to norris"s 154.

Your posts are contempt worthy ......

[BoxBuzz]

norris v hearns at 154

It would be a 1st round one punch annihilation....or if norris made it beyond a round...

When exactly did tommy avoid norris kalan? 1987/88 when terry was a unknown welter with 2 losses at 4 round level and hearns was a 4 time champ at 160?

1989 when terry was diving facefirst to julian jackson and tommy was beating srl at 168?

Or 1991 when tommy was Lh champ and norris was struggling to beat a zombie version of don curry at 154?

After 1991 tommy campaigned at 175-180 to norris"s 154.

Your posts are contempt worthy ......

Judah....there are some undeniable facts here.

Yes he avoided him in 1989
Yes he avoided him in 1991
Yes he avoided him after 1991

How do I know? I just looked up the record.....and these guys did not tangle in any of those years....

Kalan knows his facts.....and just to be certain, I could find not a single loss in the WC file. the Stilt has not a loss on his record.

So agree with Kalan or not.....

the man KNOWS of which he speaks.

these facts could appear to support his various and asundry suppositions.... and .I agree, they are highly worthy. of contempt

[elmersalsa]

Well, I tried.

You lost, thanks. Deal with it!

[Kalan]

elmersalsa... I don't think you considered the following: Leonard's and Hearns' fights vs Marv Hagler were ABOVE Welter... Leonard carried 3 yrs. of ring rust, but beat Hagler anyway ... Tommy Hearns??? ... He got smashed flat inside of 3 rounds.

Sugar Ray Robinson had something in common with Marv Hagler. He lost his Middleweight Title an underdog Welterweight... One named Carmen Basilio.

[elmersalsa]

elmersalsa... I don't think you considered the following: Leonard's and Hearns' fights vs Marv Hagler were ABOVE Welter... Leonard carried 3 yrs. of ring rust, but beat Hagler anyway ... Tommy Hearns??? ... He got smashed flat inside of 3 rounds.

Sugar Ray Robinson had something in common with Marv Hagler. He lost his Middleweight Title an underdog Welterweight... One named Carmen Basilio.

Yes, you are right. I ask a couple of questions to you Kalan: Do you believe that that was Marvelous in his prime against Sugar Ray? Or was he a fading champion looking for a big payday?

Put Sugar Ray in the ring in the same night, either with Marvelous or The Hitman when they fought those 3 unforgettable rounds. Do you believe that Leonard, with his ring rust beats those two monsters on that night?

The original great Sugar Ray was also a fading 36 year old champion fighting a tough all time great Carmen Basilio in his prime. A great win by Basilio, no doubt, it was a great accomplishment for a small welterweight to take the crown against a big and established middleweight great king. Both wins, Leonard and Basilio, were remarkable. But, if I had to pick which was the best win between the two, I pick Basilio's, no doubt.

[gilgamesh]

elmersalsa... I don't think you considered the following: Leonard's and Hearns' fights vs Marv Hagler were ABOVE Welter... Leonard carried 3 yrs. of ring rust, but beat Hagler anyway ... Tommy Hearns??? ... He got smashed flat inside of 3 rounds.

Sugar Ray Robinson had something in common with Marv Hagler. He lost his Middleweight Title an underdog Welterweight... One named Carmen Basilio.

Yes, you are right. I ask a couple of questions to you Kalan: Do you believe that that was Marvelous in his prime against Sugar Ray? Or was he a fading champion looking for a big payday?

Put Sugar Ray in the ring in the same night, either with Marvelous or The Hitman when they fought those 3 unforgettable rounds. Do you believe that Leonard, with his ring rust beats those two monsters on that night?

The original great Sugar Ray was also a fading 36 year old champion fighting a tough all time great Carmen Basilio in his prime. A great win by Basilio, no doubt, it was a great accomplishment for a small welterweight to take the crown against a big and established middleweight great king. Both wins, Leonard and Basilio, were remarkable. But, if I had to pick which was the best win between the two, I pick Basilio's, no doubt.

Yeah because he actually won for one thing. Leonard's decision win over Hagler is very much in doubt by fans and experts alike. I personally scored that fight a draw.

[elmersalsa]

elmersalsa... I don't think you considered the following: Leonard's and Hearns' fights vs Marv Hagler were ABOVE Welter... Leonard carried 3 yrs. of ring rust, but beat Hagler anyway ... Tommy Hearns??? ... He got smashed flat inside of 3 rounds.

Sugar Ray Robinson had something in common with Marv Hagler. He lost his Middleweight Title an underdog Welterweight... One named Carmen Basilio.

Yes, you are right. I ask a couple of questions to you Kalan: Do you believe that that was Marvelous in his prime against Sugar Ray? Or was he a fading champion looking for a big payday?

Put Sugar Ray in the ring in the same night, either with Marvelous or The Hitman when they fought those 3 unforgettable rounds. Do you believe that Leonard, with his ring rust beats those two monsters on that night?

The original great Sugar Ray was also a fading 36 year old champion fighting a tough all time great Carmen Basilio in his prime. A great win by Basilio, no doubt, it was a great accomplishment for a small welterweight to take the crown against a big and established middleweight great king. Both wins, Leonard and Basilio, were remarkable. But, if I had to pick which was the best win between the two, I pick Basilio's, no doubt.

Yeah because he actually won for one thing. Leonard's decision win over Hagler is very much in doubt by fans and experts alike. I personally scored that fight a draw.

And the fight was only 12 rounds. A super big fight of that magnitude should have been 15. That is why I see Basilio's win more remarkable. Even the great Emile Griffith win over the great Dick Tiger was another remarkable feat. But, I think Basilio's win trumps Leonard's and Griffith's in my view.

[gilgamesh]

Yes, you are right. I ask a couple of questions to you Kalan: Do you believe that that was Marvelous in his prime against Sugar Ray? Or was he a fading champion looking for a big payday?

Put Sugar Ray in the ring in the same night, either with Marvelous or The Hitman when they fought those 3 unforgettable rounds. Do you believe that Leonard, with his ring rust beats those two monsters on that night?

The original great Sugar Ray was also a fading 36 year old champion fighting a tough all time great Carmen Basilio in his prime. A great win by Basilio, no doubt, it was a great accomplishment for a small welterweight to take the crown against a big and established middleweight great king. Both wins, Leonard and Basilio, were remarkable. But, if I had to pick which was the best win between the two, I pick Basilio's, no doubt.

Yeah because he actually won for one thing. Leonard's decision win over Hagler is very much in doubt by fans and experts alike. I personally scored that fight a draw.

And the fight was only 12 rounds. A super big fight of that magnitude should have been 15. That is why I see Basilio's win more remarkable. Even the great Emile Griffith win over the great Dick Tiger was another remarkable feat. But, I think Basilio's win trumps Leonard's and Griffith's in my view.

Yeah definitely. Basilio's win over Robinson is probably the biggest win ever for a Welterweight moving up to Middleweight. Or damn close to it.

[elmersalsa]

Yeah because he actually won for one thing. Leonard's decision win over Hagler is very much in doubt by fans and experts alike. I personally scored that fight a draw.

And the fight was only 12 rounds. A super big fight of that magnitude should have been 15. That is why I see Basilio's win more remarkable. Even the great Emile Griffith win over the great Dick Tiger was another remarkable feat. But, I think Basilio's win trumps Leonard's and Griffith's in my view.

Yeah definitely. Basilio's win over Robinson is probably the biggest win ever for a Welterweight moving up to Middleweight. Or damn close to it.

Yeap! You got that right. A remarkable and extraordinary win, regardless!

[Kalan]

It was definitely a great win for Basilio... but I can't say Emile Griffith's 2 wins over Dick Tiger weren't more impressive than Basilio's win over SRR...

Robinson fought Fullmer 4 times while winning only once... And Fullmer fought Dick Tiger 3 times while winning NONE of them... Tiger was a very tough Middleweight Champion who also won the LHW Title -- and that's something Robinson failed to do... Grffith was a very good boxer. He controlled Tiger with his footwork, jab, and quick counters... His speed was the decisive factor in those fights... For me, he did the best job in those 3 Welterweights going for the Middleweight Title... I can't conceive of Basilio beating Griffith.. Griffith beat Tiger by unanimous decision.. It was solid.. Basilio beat Robinson by SD.. I also don't see Basilio beating Tiger because he got stomped by Fullmer -- just too small to match up well.

[elmersalsa]

It was definitely a great win for Basilio... but I can't say Emile Griffith's 2 wins over Dick Tiger weren't more impressive than Basilio's win over SRR...

Robinson fought Fullmer 4 times while winning only once... And Fullmer fought Dick Tiger 3 times while winning NONE of them... Tiger was a very tough Middleweight Champion who also won the LHW Title -- and that's something Robinson failed to do... Grffith was a very good boxer. He controlled Tiger with his footwork, jab, and quick counters... His speed was the decisive factor in those fights... For me, he did the best job in those 3 Welterweights going for the Middleweight Title... I can't conceive of Basilio beating Griffith.. Griffith beat Tiger by unanimous decision.. It was solid.. Basilio beat Robinson by SD.. I also don't see Basilio beating Tiger because he got stomped by Fullmer -- just too small to match up well.

That's your opinion, Kalan. I respect that view. In my view, I take the great Carmen Basilio win over the original Sugar Man

[Kalan]

Hmmm... Who do you think wins between Griffith and Basilio then?

[elmersalsa]

Hmmm... Who do you think wins between Griffith and Basilio ?

Too hard for me to tell. Those two were some terrific boxers. Two top 50 all time p4p greats in my view. Both had heart, grit, determination, stamina and skill. In their best nights, those two were impossible to discourage. They were not easy to beat and were tough as nails. They weren't going to be that's for sure. None of the two would've give an inch.

These two greats, Basilio and Griffith, fought in the golden era of boxing of middleweights and welterweights. They were fighting all the time, for peanuts sometimes. But, they love the fight game. They loved to fight. They fought for every penny. They were busy, busy fighters.