gilgamesh wrote:Really hard to say I'll break it down matchup by matchup. One group at a time.
I honestly don't even know how to answer this question, and I made the graphic. All these guys are legendary champions and seem extremely even to me. But, I know that there are several boxing enthusiasts on this forum who know more about the history of each champ's career than I do, so I thought it would be good to see how others hash this out.
Muhammad Ali vs Joe Louis: I'd favor Ali in this matchup. Louis was troubled by the movement of Billy Conn, and I can't imagine Conn could do anything that Ali couldn't do better. Louis would have his moments when he pushed Ali back and landed big shots on him possibly dropping him at one point, but I think Ali would win more rounds and the fight.
Ali W15
Muhammad Ali vs Wladimir Klitschko: Klitschko's size and strength would give Ali a lot of problems in the early going, and I could see him dropping 3 or 4 of the early rounds to Wlad, but I think Wlad having to give chase to the smaller fighter would tire him out more and more as the fight went on and Ali would be able to get in and out later in the fight landing big shots on Wlad before Wlad could catch him back. I think Ali would wind up taking the majority of the rounds down the stretch, and either drop Wlad and get a clear advantage on the cards or possibly stop via late TKO. My gut says it'd go the distance.
Ali W12 or W15 depending on how many rounds it's scheduled for.
Muhammad Ali vs Evander Holyfield: This would've been a really bad matchup for Ali in my opinion, Ali always had a really hard time with guys who were very strong and aggressive on the inside. Holyfield qualifies in both of those categories, and on top of that he's more athletic and quicker on his feet than either Frazier or Norton were. I think Evander Holyfield roughs up Muhammad Ali in several rounds, and wins a clear decision.
Holyfield W15
Muhammad Ali vs Joe Frazier: Well we already know it could go either way when these two are in the ring. Frazier at his very best was able to beat an Ali that wasn't quite at his very best, but assuming both were at their very best I'd favor Ali in this matchup at least 7 times out of 10. Though they'd always be hellacious fights.
Ali W15
Ali goes 3-1 against Group B
Last edited by gilgamesh on 18 Aug 2016, 23:38, edited 1 time in total.
Muhammad Ali vs Joe Louis: I'd favor Ali in this matchup. Louis was troubled by the movement of Billy Conn, and I can't imagine Conn could do anything that Ali couldn't do better. Louis would have his moments when he pushed Ali back and landed big shots on him possibly dropping him at one point, but I think Ali would win more rounds and the fight.
Ali W15
Muhammad Ali vs Wladimir Klitschko: Klitschko's size and strength would give Ali a lot of problems in the early going, and I could see him dropping 3 or 4 of the early rounds to Wlad, but I think Wlad having to give chase to the smaller fighter would tire him out more and more as the fight went on and Ali would be able to get in and out later in the fight landing big shots on Wlad before Wlad could catch him back. I think Ali would wind up taking the majority of the rounds down the stretch, and either drop Wlad and get a clear advantage on the cards or possibly stop via late TKO. My gut says it'd go the distance.
Ali W12 or W15 depending on how many rounds it's scheduled for.
Muhammad Ali vs Evander Holyfield: This would've been a really bad matchup for Ali in my opinion, Ali always had a really hard time with guys who were very strong and aggressive on the inside. Holyfield qualifies in both of those categories, and on top of that he's more athletic and quicker on his feet than either Frazier or Norton were. I think Evander Holyfield roughs up Muhammad Ali in several rounds, and wins a clear decision.
Holyfield W15
Muhammad Ali vs Joe Frazier: Well we already know it could go either way when these two are in the ring. Frazier at his very best was able to beat an Ali that wasn't quite at his very best, but assuming both were at their very best I'd favor Ali in this matchup at least 7 times out of 10. Though they'd always be hellacious fights.
Ali W15
Some very great points and great analysis. Definitely something to take into consideration.
Rocky Marciano vs Larry Holmes: I like Holmes in this matchup. Marciano is as gutsy as they come, and he'd be rushing in digging to Holmes' body every step of the way, but I think Holmes would be able to use his movement enough to keep Marciano from landing the big hurtful shots for the most, and I also see him cutting up Marciano with his jab (that'll be a common opinion of mine with fighters who have good jabs and good skills)...Marciano would give his all, but Holmes is the better fighter and would win a clear decision.
Larry Holmes W15
Rocky Marciano vs Sonny Liston: Liston the stronger and more technically skilled fighter of the two has his way in the early going, busting Marciano up and knocking him down once or twice. He'd have dominated and won most every round after about 7 or 8 rounds, but eventually Marciano's tenacity and steady attack would begin to wear out Liston, and he'd struggle down the stretch of the fight losing Rounds 10 thru 15 to Marciano, and almost falling apart enough at the end for Marciano to get the win, but the dominance in the early going and the knockdowns would be enough of a cushion for Liston to come out on top.
Sonny Liston W15
Rocky Marciano vs George Foreman: Sorry, I think Rocko gets destroyed in this one. Foreman wins by KO in 3 or 4 rounds, and it looks about the way the Frazier and Norton fights looked.
Foreman KO 4
Rocky Marciano vs Vitali Klitschko: Klitschko keeps Marciano at bay with his height and reach through most of the rounds. Marciano keeps pounding away at the body in an attempt to tire the big man out. He eventually succeeds at that, and just like the Liston fight comes on strong during the final stretch of rounds to sweep the later rounds. Unfortunately for him again he'd have lost the first 8 or 9 rounds to Klitschko.
Vitali Klitschko W15
Rocky goes 0-4 against Group C
Last edited by gilgamesh on 18 Aug 2016, 23:37, edited 1 time in total.
gilgamesh wrote:It takes a lot longer to do this than I would've thought
It's a tough question, but again I appreciate that you're actually providing thoughtful analysis. This question is extremely open-ended and could be argued from any perspective.
Lennox Lewis vs Joe Louis: Lennox gives Joe hell in the early going with his greater strength, size and reach and takes a lot of the early rounds from Joe. Joe would keep working his way inside and landing body shots when he could to create openings upstairs, and I think at some point around the 7th or 8th round he would land a hurtful left hook to the body that would double Lennox over in pain just long enough for Louis to come across that sledgehammer right hand of his that was his bread and butter.
Joe Louis KO 8
Lennox Lewis vs Wladimir Klitschko: Wladimir would look like a deer in the headlights in this fight. He'd be nervous and cautious as all hell, and it wouldn't do him a damn bit of good. Lennox runs through him like a hot knife through butter. Lewis via KO 1 or 2.
Lennox Lewis KO 1
Lennox Lewis vs Evander Holyfield: Assuming this matchup happens with both men fighting at their best and not when it did when Lewis had more left in him than Holy did, it would be a much, much more competitive bout obviously. Lennox would be giving Holyfield hell with his jab and reach throughout and trying to wear him down by leaning on him like he's known to do, but Holyfield would be a lot more able to shrug him off and fight off the attack of Lennox making for a very close contest. It's not out of the question that Holyfield could catch that questionable chin of Lennox's and stop him, but I think both at their best a fight between these two would've always been very close and could go either way just about every time. I'd favor Lennox to win 2 out of 3 in a trilogy with both at their peaks.
Lennox Lewis W12
Lennox Lewis vs Joe Frazier: Lennox does well in the early going as just about everybody does against Frazier since he's a slow starter taking the first 2 or 3 rounds from Joe, then Joe starts pouring it on and banging away at Lennox's body with big left hooks. He starts narrowing the gap, and Lennox holds only a slight lead on the cards after the 8th. After that I think Frazier gradually starts catching Lennox with clean shots to the head and stuns him a few times before one of those left hooks ultimately drops to the canvas hard, and Lennox doesn't beat the count.
Mike Tyson vs Larry Holmes: Tyson did beat Holmes when he was past his best, and I think there's a good chance he would've beaten him anyhow, but it definitely wouldn't have been anywhere near as easy as it was for him in 1988. Tyson would've come out guns blazing like he always did, and would've been all over Holmes in the early going winning the first 3 or 4 rounds, but Holmes would gradually start being able to get some distance and pepper Tyson with his jab from outside from a combination of the punches he'd land on Mike early, and Mike beginning to fatigue from his furious start. Tyson would have some more big surges that would allow him to take some more rounds from Holmes, and possibly score a knockdown or two, but I think Holmes would win a lot of rounds down the stretch and take a close decision over Mike...but it would be important whether it was a 12 or 15 rounder. If it were a 12 rounder I'd favor Mike by narrow decision, with the extra 3 rounds I'd favor Holmes. Since Tyson competed exclusively in the 12 round era I guess it's only fair to score it that way.
Tyson W12
Mike Tyson vs Sonny Liston: Two classic bullies here, Sonny Liston I feel like had a bit more of a meanness and ability to deal with adversity than Mike had. After Mike starting off furiously and hammering on Liston in the early rounds, I think Mike would start breaking down mentally when Liston was hammering on him with stiff jabs and hard right hands as the fight went on. I'd favor Liston by KO around the 9th or 10th round.
Liston KO 9
Mike Tyson vs George Foreman: This would be a shootout! Tyson would come out guns blazing and so would George. Tyson does the same head bobbing thing that allowed George to time Frazier perfectly with his uppercut repeatedly, but he is faster than Frazier so I'm not sure if George would be able to catch him as consistently or not. Basically I see both guys getting stunned repeatedly, knocked down at least once or maybe more, and I see George coming out on top in a f*cking war!!!
Foreman KO 6
Mike Tyson vs Vitali Klitschko: Tyson was always troubled with tall guys so he'd have a hard time with Vitali early on, and I do think Mike would start slower against an opponent like this because he'd be a bit befuddled by the massive height disadvantage he'd be faced with, but I think Mike would set a pretty frenetic pace which would tire the big man out much faster than it would Mike. Vitali would win about 3 or 4 rounds early on, but then I figure Mike would be hammering on him with big shots and busting him up while he got more and more tired. Now we never saw Vitali faced with an opponent like this so he may well fold and be stopped late, but I figure he'd survive the distance and drop a UD to Mike.
Muhammad Ali vs Larry Holmes: Very tight and competitive fight for both. I think these two would essentially fight on even terms going back and forth they'd both be taking rounds here and there just depending on who was able to find the openings in that round. I feel like Holmes would likely have to be the aggressor here as Ali has better movement and he'd use it. Fight would be razor thin, and the decision would probably go Ali's way as he basically always got the benefit of the doubt in competitive fights.
Ali W15
Muhammad Ali vs Sonny Liston: Just watch the fight
Ali TKO 7
Muhammad Ali vs George Foreman: Just watch the fight
Ali KO 8
Muhammad Ali vs Vitali Klitschko: Vitali would give Ali a lot of problems early just like Wlad did, but much like Wlad I see him tiring and being less and less able to stop Ali's quick flurries as the fight goes on.
Ali W12 (narrow decision if it were scheduled for 12) or W15 (clear decision if it were scheduled for 15)
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Frazier is the key, Foreman is the only loss I have for him.
Would you also take Holyfield to defeat Ali?
No, the jab.i have Holmes over Ali though.
Interesting. I went with Holy over Ali, and Ali over Holmes narrowly, but I figure a fight between prime Holmes and Ali could honestly go either way, I think it'd only be a 1 or 2 point margin of victory regardless who came out on top.
gilgamesh wrote:
Would you also take Holyfield to defeat Ali?
No, the jab.i have Holmes over Ali though.
Interesting. I went with Holy over Ali, and Ali over Holmes narrowly, but I figure a fight between prime Holmes and Ali could honestly go either way, I think it'd only be a 1 or 2 point margin of victory regardless who came out on top.
Prime Ali vs Prime Holmes would be a total pick-em where it's extremely easy, and rather hard not to, see a way for either fighter to win. I tend to think Ali's slight advantage in speed and slightly better defensive skills would give him a razor-thin split decision victory over Holmes, as a motivated Tim Witherspoon in his prime gave Holmes a good run for his money. But then again, Holmes had an excellent jab and great punching accuracy.
Anyway, great feedback. Always good to get some thoughtful discussion!
Have to go with Group A. They have the best fighter (Ali) who would go 8-0. The other groups have the Klitschkos, whose only serious chance would be against each other.
Every other fighter in Group A would wins at least two fights for sure (against the Klitschkos) and have would certainly win a few more.
Arco Iris wrote:Surprised that nobody has picked group C yet. Foreman, Liston, and V. Klitschko are all known for knocking their opponents out in less than 5 rounds.
Arco Iris wrote:Surprised that nobody has picked group C yet. Foreman, Liston, and V. Klitschko are all known for knocking their opponents out in less than 5 rounds.
Vitali couldn't knock out anyone on these lists.
But so long as he loses on cuts, his squad will claim "he could have".
Arco Iris wrote:Surprised that nobody has picked group C yet. Foreman, Liston, and V. Klitschko are all known for knocking their opponents out in less than 5 rounds.
Vitali couldn't knock out anyone on these lists.
But so long as he loses on cuts, his squad will claim "he could have".
That's a good point. However, when did VK's skin cut apart from his bout with Lennox Lewis?
Which of these groups of heavyweights would rack up the most wins? by VMK_narutoshadowclone, on Flickr
