A case for Henry Armstrong

[littlepug]

Kalan my friend you do realise Armstrong and Valero come from vastly different worlds ? Economically, socially, medically and scientifically different worlds with different norms for everything, boxers from armstrongs time weren't "brought along" like Valero would have been, boxers fought weekly (or more often) and carried injuries and illnesses, nutrition and training techniques were yet to evolve and the sport itself was brutal in comparison to today with longer fights and no early stoppages, in short Valero couldn't live with Armstrong and their acheivments aren't even comparable, just looking at stats and percentages gives a false story as Valero wasn't even the best in his division and didn't fight anyone of note, so as impressive as his numbers are they don't actually mean anything, but hey kalan weve all been there, when I first started following the game I thought buck smith must be the business based on his impressive record at the time

[elmersalsa]

I thought that boxers like heavyweight journey man Lamar Clark was something special when I started to see records of boxers. He had 44 straight KO wins. But, when I look at the list of opponents, it was a soft as jello pudding. Nobody of noteworthy or appealing was in his record. And when someone noteworthy came to fight him, Clark got knocked out. Who stopped Clark? A brash young man by the name of Cassius Clay.

[Kalan]

Kalan, for the record, I would like to see your PERSONAL LIST of the 20 best fighters ever that graced the ring? I am not going to comment about it, but I would like you to give us a detailed information as why you think it's so. Is Edwin Valero in your top 10 p4p all time? I am curious.

I'm not going to come up with a list of Top-20 fighters right now. There's guys who respect the sport and can box, and guys who catch a lot of stray shots and get knocked on their cans a lot, or just get hit too much. You have brawlers and boxers.

Some guys drop off. Roberto Duran could box at his best, but his form fell off and he didn't really care. Vernon Forrest was good until his shoulder and arm problems. Then he couldn't throw. Ezzard Charles was a great fighter as a Light Heavyweight, but wasn't the same fighter from 1951 on. ALS killed Charles at some point, and nobody knows when or how that disease starts to affect you... Larry Holmes carried around that big pot belly in his 40's, like he could GAF less, but at his best he was good. But there were some good ones at their best, and the following come to mind in no particular order. I'm not saying who's number on or number 50.

Floyd Mayweather, Gene Tunney, Salvador Sanchez, Eder Jofre, Anthony Joshua, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles, Charley Burley, Vitali Klitschko, Larry Holmes, Jack Johnson, Gennady Golovkin, Andre Ward, Sergei Kovalev, Vasyl Lomachenko, Jack Johnson, Terence Crawford, Kell Brook, Errol Spence, Ike Ibeabuchi, Edwin Valero, Roman Gonzalez, Juan Manuel Marquez, Mike McCallum, James Toney, Antonio Tarver, Bernard Hopkins, Carlos Monzon, Roberto Duran, Jose Napoles, Michael Spinks, Mike Gibbons, Finito Lopez, David Haye, Gustav Scholz, Vernon Forrest, Guillermo Rignodeaux and a hundred more were pretting good ... I do know that Henry Armstrong was never a very good boxer.

[BoxBuzz]

That is a list of very good fighters...some are outstanding.

It's even more interesting who you don't see on that list.

Armstrong, Ambers, Ali........And that's just the beginning of the alphabet


Valero and Ibeabuchi? I've got my doubts.....Ike only beat Byrd and Tua.......And to my way of thinking he didn't beat Tua...they fought to a draw at best...I had Tua ahead. And Byrd was not doing all that bad until he got caught. Had it gone on much longer, Byrd just might have forced him into straining himself and forcing him to quit. You know, like he did to that other big guy.

[klompton]

The only thing I'll agree with here is that Armstrong was one of the dirtiest fighters Ive ever seen. That being said he was still a phenomenal talent. To deny that is ridiculous. He was a pocket version of Joe Frazier. He didnt face punchers??? He gave away 12 pounds to Ceferino Garcia who less than a year later knocked out a big strong MW champion in Fred Apostoli and then rematched Garcia just five months after his defeat of Apostoli. Why pretend like he was avoiding tough fights and big punchers? Who were all of these guys that Armstrong avoided? Pedro Montanez was a big puncher, Paul Junior was a big puncher, Lew Jenkins was one of the hardest P4P punchers in the world at the time. You need to get your facts straight Kalan. Even a guy like Fritzie Zivic was considered a deadly right hand puncher. Bummy Davis was a big puncher as well. A lot of other guys he fought were punchers as well whether their record reflects it or not. Speaking of records, what you fail to understand is that even some of the nobodies on Armstrong's record have upwards of 100 fights. These guys were fighting all of the time and the law of averages is going to tell you that the more you fight the more you lose. This isnt floyd mayweatherville where you fight once every two against a hand picked opponent at whatever weight suits you with your own gloves and your own drug testing that lets you cheat but restricts even legit treatment for your opponent. Yes, in world like we have now it seems awfully hard for a legit talent to lose. Drop Floyd Mayweather and his brittle hands in 1935 and make him fight once a week and he has a fuckton more losses on his record than the two the judges saved him from. Nevermind that in that era if you are booked to fight once a week and go breaking your hand because you tried to knock out every opponent you faced well, you do the math, thats a lot of money you are out. Then go read his biography and tell me how easy a black fighter during the depression had it just making ends meet much less getting the big names to face him. It never ceases to amaze me how some of these young punks come on here and have no understanding of where this sport came from and why superficially glossy records we see today are so meaningless, so worthless, and so harmful to what this sport could really be. Kalan until you actually get a clue and understand what you are talking about stop posting about subjects you clearly arent familiar with beyond a quick, cursory google search.

[BoxBuzz]

klompton, I credit your work on Greb as a way I've been able to gain a better perspective on those fighters who don't have a good visual record. I don't always find myself in perfect alignment with your conclusions, but there's no doubt you're one hell of a tenacious digger. And the things you came up with in your search were pretty stunning, eye opening, and illuminating to say the very least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=141ra6jHwJM

[Counter-puncher]

Klompton just ended the thread, thanks fella

[jas80s]

The only thing I'll agree with here is that Armstrong was one of the dirtiest fighters Ive ever seen. That being said he was still a phenomenal talent. To deny that is ridiculous. He was a pocket version of Joe Frazier. He didnt face punchers??? He gave away 12 pounds to Ceferino Garcia who less than a year later knocked out a big strong MW champion in Fred Apostoli and then rematched Garcia just five months after his defeat of Apostoli. Why pretend like he was avoiding tough fights and big punchers? Who were all of these guys that Armstrong avoided? Pedro Montanez was a big puncher, Paul Junior was a big puncher, Lew Jenkins was one of the hardest P4P punchers in the world at the time. You need to get your facts straight Kalan. Even a guy like Fritzie Zivic was considered a deadly right hand puncher. Bummy Davis was a big puncher as well. A lot of other guys he fought were punchers as well whether their record reflects it or not. Speaking of records, what you fail to understand is that even some of the nobodies on Armstrong's record have upwards of 100 fights. These guys were fighting all of the time and the law of averages is going to tell you that the more you fight the more you lose. This isnt floyd mayweatherville where you fight once every two against a hand picked opponent at whatever weight suits you with your own gloves and your own drug testing that lets you cheat but restricts even legit treatment for your opponent. Yes, in world like we have now it seems awfully hard for a legit talent to lose. Drop Floyd Mayweather and his brittle hands in 1935 and make him fight once a week and he has a fuckton more losses on his record than the two the judges saved him from. Nevermind that in that era if you are booked to fight once a week and go breaking your hand because you tried to knock out every opponent you faced well, you do the math, thats a lot of money you are out. Then go read his biography and tell me how easy a black fighter during the depression had it just making ends meet much less getting the big names to face him. It never ceases to amaze me how some of these young punks come on here and have no understanding of where this sport came from and why superficially glossy records we see today are so meaningless, so worthless, and so harmful to what this sport could really be. Kalan until you actually get a clue and understand what you are talking about stop posting about subjects you clearly arent familiar with beyond a quick, cursory google search.

Superb post, thanks for weighing in..

When it comes to boxing, you simply HAVE to look beyond records and results and consider the context, it requires nuance. Way too many guys with gaudy records who have fought nobody, and a "fuckton" (have to borrow that word) of guys, ESPECIALLY in the past, with records that are not as glossy, but who were still pretty damn good fighters, as you say, completely different contexts.

But to be fair, Kalan had Jack Johnson on his ATG list, and he failed to win 19 times in 75 fights, so this is clearly not all about records. The guy is just honestly not impressed with Henry Armstrong, I am mystified by it and I think he is really underestimating his skill set, but the guy is entitled to an opinion. I've asked directly if he feels that top fighters today would post decidedly better records over 15 plus years fighting once a month just to pay the bills, I've never received an answer, but I suspect the answer would have to be yes, otherwise all the record talk is meaningless. Once again I would disagree, but who can say for sure what the truth is?

[Kalan]

That is a list of very good fighters...some are outstanding.

It's even more interesting who you don't see on that list.

Armstrong, Ambers, Ali........And that's just the beginning of the alphabet


Valero and Ibeabuchi? I've got my doubts.....Ike only beat Byrd and Tua.......And to my way of thinking he didn't beat Tua...they fought to a draw at best...I had Tua ahead. And Byrd was not doing all that bad until he got caught. Had it gone on much longer, Byrd just might have forced him into straining himself and forcing him to quit. You know, like he did to that other big guy.

Valero and Ibeabuchi belong up there with the best ever BuzzBox... Ibeabuchi only had 16 fights and was overmatched vs Tua... Yet he won a deserved UNANIMOUS DECISION.. Only a blind adolescent like you would say he didn't deserve to win.. Byrd was doing terrible, and he DID get caught MULTIPLE times by Ike.. Ibeabuchi was steadily walking Byrd down systematically... trapping him on the ropes... ripping his head and body... and punching him TFO... Byrd was 26-0 so it was no small feat. When Ali was 26-0 he cherry-picked the shot up Cleveland Williams -- a guy who had been trashed by slow poke Sonny Liston and 176-pound light heavyweight Bob Satterfield -- who'd been knocked out 10 times previously to smashing Cleveland Williams out. Two guys who needed your services Williams and Satterfield.

But you're right about one thing.. Byrd outboxed that other big guy, Tua,. if he's who you're talking about.. Shows how far Ibeabuchi progressed between his Tua and Byrd fights ... He beat Tua UNANIMOUSLY and blew Byrd out early.. Byrd couldn't land anything meaningful on Ike. Byrd was the luckiest guy living against Vitali.. Byrd was being outboxed by a million miles on the scorecards when the training camp aggravated rotator cuff sundering stopped VK.. Did Byrd win any rounds vs Wladimir in 2 fights??? No he didn't. Wladimir didn't win any rounds versus that other southpaw, Corrie Sanders, did he??? Not that I saw, but a blind kid like you might think he was shutting Wladimir out.. So it's not as if WK couldn't be tagged upside the head prior to hiring Emanuel Steward to give him some skills. He was wide open and Byrd still couldn't hit him.

[BoxBuzz]

Think so, huh? I gotta hand it to ya...you're no shrinking violet.

Championing the idea that Ibeabuchi and Valero as among the best of the best takes a good imagination.

I'm not convinced. But everyone admires youthful exuberance. Until it gets annoying.

[Kalan]

Well you're annoying in your lack of comprehension... Did I say Valero and Ibeabuchi were the best of the best??? ... Or did I say they were among the best?

[littlepug]

Well you're annoying in your lack of comprehension... Did I say Valero and Ibeabuchi were the best of the best??? ... Or did I say they were among the best?

yes they were among the best in history......in their hometowns

[Kalan]

Ibeabuchi and Valero finished their careers undefeated...after easily beating and stopping fighters who had great records and won world titles in Chris Byrd and Antonio DeMarco.. They were well known on the world scene.. Some said Ibeabuchi was overmatched vs Tua after going 16-0 and vs Byrd after going 19-0.. But he won those fights by UD and brutal stoppage.. Valero was an undefeated 2-Division World Champion who was 27-0 with 27 KO wins. Their KO ratios were 75% and 100%

Neither were they ever floored, hurt, or issued a count of any kind -- nor did any judge ever give an opponent a win or a draw in a SD or MD situation. So that makes them better than anyone in their hometowns, home states, home countries, or home continents.

Some say Henry Armstrong was an ATG... He only won 14 of his first 20 fights and struggled in a lot of fights thereafter... He didn't fight with a lot of style or skill. His method of securing wins was to illegally lever with his head, arms, shoulders, and gloves -- and to push, butt, and swing his way through his contests, mostly against weak opposition... He was DQ'd twice, but never changed his style of fighting to accommodate any referee's warnings.. He was floored by feather hitters and had a KO ratio of 56%..

Armstrong failed to win 30 contests.. People say he fought Ceferino Garcia for the "World Middleweight Title" but that was a scam title.. Garcia also fought Armstrong for the Welterweight Title and was knocked out by Fred Apostoli 5 months earlier -- coming in 6.5 pounds under the weight limit for both fights.. Armstrong's "Middleweight Title Shot" was typical of the setups and maneuverings in Boxing in those days.

[Counter-puncher]

Ibeabuchi and Valero

Neither were they ever floored, hurt, or issued a count of any kind .

Valero was knocked down by Mosquera.

it seems you'll never learn to desist from making sweeping statements as if your opinion was fact, you're an imbecile, truly.

[BoxBuzz]

Ibeabuchi and Valero finished their careers undefeated...after easily beating and stopping fighters who had great records and won world titles in Chris Byrd and Antonio DeMarco.. They were well known on the world scene.. Some said Ibeabuchi was overmatched vs Tua after going 16-0 and vs Byrd after going 19-0.. But he won those fights by UD and brutal stoppage.. Valero was an undefeated 2-Division World Champion who was 27-0 with 27 KO wins. Their KO ratios were 75% and 100%

Neither were they ever floored, hurt, or issued a count of any kind -- nor did any judge ever give an opponent a win or a draw in a SD or MD situation. So that makes them better than anyone in their hometowns, home states, home countries, or home continents.

Some say Henry Armstrong was an ATG... He only won 14 of his first 20 fights and struggled in a lot of fights thereafter... He didn't fight with a lot of style or skill. His method of securing wins was to illegally lever with his head, arms, shoulders, and gloves -- and to push, butt, and swing his way through his contests, mostly against weak opposition... He was DQ'd twice, but never changed his style of fighting to accommodate any referee's warnings.. He was floored by feather hitters and had a KO ratio of 56%..

Armstrong failed to win 30 contests.. People say he fought Ceferino Garcia for the "World Middleweight Title" but that was a scam title.. Garcia also fought Armstrong for the Welterweight Title and was knocked out by Fred Apostoli 5 months earlier -- coming in 6.5 pounds under the weight limit for both fights.. Armstrong's "Middleweight Title Shot" was typical of the setups and maneuverings in Boxing in those days.

You have the heart of an accountant.....but....I don't see Ottke here.....and he has that Marciano Cherry as well.

[klompton]

LOL comparing Ibeauchi's victories over Tua (who never accomplished anything) and Byrd (who was only "champion" because a half dozen titles existed while he was fighting) with a guy who won 3 of the 8 titles that existed at the time and came within a whisker of winning the fourth and faced four hall of famers to do it. Those four fights alone shit all over anything Ibeabuchi ever hallucinated in his demented mind.


How many hall of famers did Ibeabuchi beat to prove, in your limited estimation Kalan, that he is among the best ever? Do you think Tua and Byrd will make it into even this watered down open door of a HOF we have now and if he does do you think people will really consider Byrd one of the better picks in there?? Armstrong fought over a dozen HOFers across numerous fights and won a lot more than he lost. Had Valero and Ibeabuchi both actually chose to fight their battles in the ring instead of against women and did so against much better competition than they actually fought we MIGHT have a better idea where they rank but as it stands they are simply "might have been" men and not even the beginnings of a pimple on the ass of Henry Armstrong.

[gilgamesh]

LOL comparing Ibeauchi's victories over Tua (who never accomplished anything) and Byrd (who was only "champion" because a half dozen titles existed while he was fighting) with a guy who won 3 of the 8 titles that existed at the time and came within a whisker of winning the fourth and faced four hall of famers to do it. Those four fights alone poo all over anything Ibeabuchi ever hallucinated in his demented mind.


How many hall of famers did Ibeabuchi beat to prove, in your limited estimation Kalan, that he is among the best ever? Do you think Tua and Byrd will make it into even this watered down open door of a HOF we have now and if he does do you think people will really consider Byrd one of the better picks in there?? Armstrong fought over a dozen HOFers across numerous fights and won a lot more than he lost. Had Valero and Ibeabuchi both actually chose to fight their battles in the ring instead of against women and did so against much better competition than they actually fought we MIGHT have a better idea where they rank but as it stands they are simply "might have been" men and not even the beginnings of a pimple on the ass of Henry Armstrong.

I didn't even think Ibeabuchi deserved the decision against Tua. Ibeabuchi is comically overrated by people on forums these days.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

dedicating new threads for trolls now buzz?

[BoxBuzz]

Well it's proactive....it's about boxing, and it's promoting discussion on a specific boxer from history.

Where did I go wrong Saad? I'm even glad to see you chime in....and I'll be even happier when you use this thread to have your have your say about Hank, vs veering off course and takin' a potshot at your ol' pal Buzz.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If I'd known it was more space for kalan to drool in instead of an actual thread about Hank. I wouldn't have opened it.

[jas80s]

If I'd known it was more space for kalan to drool in instead of an actual thread about Hank. I wouldn't have opened it.

It's the new reality, if you see the names Armstrong or Robinson, expect the drool.

[Chuck1052]

As someone who looked at a lot of 1930s California newspapers on microfilm, I can tell you that Henry Armstrong had a great deal of trouble getting decent paydays as a professional boxer from 1932 to 1936, the depths of the Great Depression. In Armstrong's home state of California, almost all of the professional boxing venues were struggling at the time.

The Hollywood Legion Stadium (both versions) was by far the most financially successful and most stable professional boxing venue in California during the 1930s. But black boxers were barred from boxing at the Hollywood Legion Stadium (both versions) from 1921 (when it opened for business) until 1940. Ironically, the ban was lifted when the Hollywood American Legion was promoting a scheduled bout between Ceferino Garcia and Armstrong at Gilmore Stadium with Garcia's California version of the world middleweight title at stake. People seized on the obvious hypocrisy of Armstrong being in the main event on a Legion promotion at Gilmore Stadium, but being barred along with all other black fighters at Hollywood Legion Stadium.

- Chuck Johnston

[Kalan]

Kalan my friend you do realise Armstrong and Valero come from vastly different worlds ? Economically, socially, medically and scientifically different worlds with different norms for everything, boxers from armstrongs time weren't "brought along" like Valero would have been, boxers fought weekly (or more often) and carried injuries and illnesses, nutrition and training techniques were yet to evolve and the sport itself was brutal in comparison to today with longer fights and no early stoppages, in short Valero couldn't live with Armstrong and their acheivments aren't even comparable, just looking at stats and percentages gives a false story as Valero wasn't even the best in his division and didn't fight anyone of note, so as impressive as his numbers are they don't actually mean anything, but hey kalan weve all been there, when I first started following the game I thought buck smith must be the business based on his impressive record at the time

That's funny stuff because Valero was a 2-Division World Champion who knocked out every single fighter he ever faced... And if Armstrong was medically deprived, Valero was in a severe motorcycle accident that smashed his skull up, and he needed extensive brain surgery.. That was before he had his first professional fight and It delayed his career for a long time while he recovered.. When you say scientifically different worlds you are correct.. because if Valero had pushed, shoved, butted, and used his head arms, shoulders, and gloves to gain leverage---as Armstrong did---he would have been DQ'd quite a few times -- instead of just getting DQ'd twice like Armstrong was... And boxing science as in: footwork, jabbing, boxing, combination throwing, and defense---are things that Valero had plenty of and Armstrong lacked entirely. Hank was strictly a brawler.

And BTW... Not many fans have ever heard of buck smith or his impressive record. Was he a 2-Division World Champion who won all his fights by KO and never lost one??? ... Nope... Was he a good boxer? ... Nope... Did he have a winless streak of about 20? ... Yup... Valero's longest winless streak? ...Zero... The most years during his career where he failed to score a KO??? ...Zero...

[Counter-puncher]

You've spent thousands of words ranting about valero and never once mentioned the name of an opponent

Name one good fighter he beat, I dare you.

And while you're at it explain him getting put on his ass by that bum Mosquera

[Kalan]

You've spent thousands of words ranting about valero and never once mentioned the name of an opponent

Name one good fighter he beat, I dare you.

And while you're at it explain him getting put on his ass by that bum Mosquera

You're a LIAR... I've often pointed out that he stopped Antonio DeMarco... DeMarco knocked out John Molina and Jorge Linares... Linares beat Jesus Chavez, Oscar Larios, and Kevin MItchell.. So what if Valero was dropped once in his career??? ... How many times was Joe Louis knocked down??? How many times was Ali knocked down??? ... How many times was Lewis knocked down??? ... How many times was Robinson knocked down??? Archie Moore was knocked down more than you can count.