I agree, Kirk johnson did have some talent. He he would have just used his brain at all, he would have beat Ruiz, won a lame title and been better remembered.Seamus wrote:If Tim Witherspoon had been a gym rat he'd be in the IBHOF. And you can all laugh, but if he was seriously dedicated to training and a healthy diet, Kirk Johnson would have been an excellent fighter.
Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
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Ambling Alp II
- Super Middleweight
- Posts: 15181
- Joined: 04 Nov 2012, 18:31
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
Kalan wrote:BuzzBox... If you can't see the difference between a crude, wide open target like Joe Mesi and a great boxer-puncher like Valero, you understand ZERO about Boxing. Vassily Jirov never beat a quality Heavyweight. He lost a cruiserweight fight to blown up Middleweight James Toney (a guy who could box pretty well) by a wide margin. Jirov was nearly stopped by Toney and lost by 8-points on 2 cards.. In contrast, Joe Mesi was beaten up and suffered two subdural hematomas against Jirov.. He should have been forced to retire because of beating he took.. Mesi was given a gift decision for that miserable effort and they limited it to 10-rounds. If it had been a 12-rounder Mesi would have been stopped in the 11th.BoxBuzz wrote:On the subject of Mesi, it's interesting......I somewhat agree with you.....he wasn't a great, but for a small HW he did himself proud.
Where we apparently disagree is that I see Mesi and Valero in a similar category......two fellas who done good with limited means.
I wasn't saying Mesi was great.....I was saying he shares the Marciano cherry, just as Valero and Ottke. No more, no less.
If you wonder why Mesi when 36-0 it's because he never fought anybody.. It wasn't because the top Heavyweights didn't want to fight him... He was kept away from dangerous Heavyweights because the couldn't defend himself.. Have you ever heard of Heavyweight David Rodriguez??? Do you think he can box??? He went 36-0 just like Joe Mesi -- but his backers knew as soon as they put DR in with anybody who could box or punch he'd get killed.
Let me make something clear to you Kalan.......Anybody here will tell you I know even MORE than Zero about boxing. So don't go around publically misunderestimating what I know about this sport.
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
Why I'd go so far as to say that BoxBuzz knows FOUR about Boxing. What have you got to say about that Kalan? He might even know FIVE, but I don't want him to get a big head.BoxBuzz wrote:Kalan wrote:BuzzBox... If you can't see the difference between a crude, wide open target like Joe Mesi and a great boxer-puncher like Valero, you understand ZERO about Boxing. Vassily Jirov never beat a quality Heavyweight. He lost a cruiserweight fight to blown up Middleweight James Toney (a guy who could box pretty well) by a wide margin. Jirov was nearly stopped by Toney and lost by 8-points on 2 cards.. In contrast, Joe Mesi was beaten up and suffered two subdural hematomas against Jirov.. He should have been forced to retire because of beating he took.. Mesi was given a gift decision for that miserable effort and they limited it to 10-rounds. If it had been a 12-rounder Mesi would have been stopped in the 11th.BoxBuzz wrote:On the subject of Mesi, it's interesting......I somewhat agree with you.....he wasn't a great, but for a small HW he did himself proud.
Where we apparently disagree is that I see Mesi and Valero in a similar category......two fellas who done good with limited means.
I wasn't saying Mesi was great.....I was saying he shares the Marciano cherry, just as Valero and Ottke. No more, no less.
If you wonder why Mesi when 36-0 it's because he never fought anybody.. It wasn't because the top Heavyweights didn't want to fight him... He was kept away from dangerous Heavyweights because the couldn't defend himself.. Have you ever heard of Heavyweight David Rodriguez??? Do you think he can box??? He went 36-0 just like Joe Mesi -- but his backers knew as soon as they put DR in with anybody who could box or punch he'd get killed.
Let me make something clear to you Kalan.......Anybody here will tell you I know even MORE than Zero about boxing. So don't go around publically misunderestimating what I know about this sport.
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
Appreciate the feedback....I would say four is fair.
By the way what's the fine/penalty for public misunderestimation?
By the way what's the fine/penalty for public misunderestimation?
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
I'm thinking you need to burn a life size Wilt Chamberlain cut out on his lawn.BoxBuzz wrote:Appreciate the feedback....I would say four is fair.
By the way what's the fine/penalty for public misunderestimation?
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SaadOffTheDeck
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 19602
- Joined: 04 Jun 2009, 07:38
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
Leave the kid alone, if he ever has sex he'll be a sweet little boy that likes boxers and plays well with the other kids.gilgamesh wrote:I'm thinking you need to burn a life size Wilt Chamberlain cut out on his lawn.BoxBuzz wrote:Appreciate the feedback....I would say four is fair.
By the way what's the fine/penalty for public misunderestimation?
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
APerno wrote:.
For me, it was Riddick Bowe. After watching Bowe dismantle Evander Holyfield in their first fight I was convinced that Bowe was going to be very tough to beat and would be champion for several years to come, (and I wasn’t even a Bowe fan); I thought he had both the size and skill to be a dominate champion, and then, surprise - he was gone 'oh so quickly.'
Maybe Tim Witherspoon for me. At the time he was fighting I was disappointed with Lennox Lewis but in hindsight he was one of the best.
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
Karriem Respress for me. Every year, when he would fight Julius Long, I would think "THIS time, Karriem, THIS time." But it was never to be.
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
mike tyson complete headcase ....if he wasnt such a headcase he woulda lasted much more
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
I would've loved to have seen what a career long in shape and motivated Buster Douglas would've done. The night he beat Tyson despite Tysons woes he looked so good. Fast, powerful and tough.
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
BuzzBox you don't know anything. You're equating Joe Mesi with guys who were great because he was undefeated.. Mesi was extremely uncomfortable fighting Barrett and Jirov who were fringe contenders and wide open.. Interestingly enough, those fights were scheduled for 10 rounds and Mesi barely finished, holding grabbing and running while he was getting battered.. Some Americans actually thought Dominic Breazeale was going to go over to England and win a World Title from Anthony Joshua when he can't defend himself.. Mesi was so open that his only defense against swingers like Barrett and Jirov was grabbing, holding, and running and he still got battered, so it doesn't matter what his record was.BoxBuzz wrote:Kalan wrote:BuzzBox... If you can't see the difference between a crude, wide open target like Joe Mesi and a great boxer-puncher like Valero, you understand ZERO about Boxing. Vassily Jirov never beat a quality Heavyweight. He lost a cruiserweight fight to blown up Middleweight James Toney (a guy who could box pretty well) by a wide margin. Jirov was nearly stopped by Toney and lost by 8-points on 2 cards.. In contrast, Joe Mesi was beaten up and suffered two subdural hematomas against Jirov.. He should have been forced to retire because of beating he took.. Mesi was given a gift decision for that miserable effort and they limited it to 10-rounds. If it had been a 12-rounder Mesi would have been stopped in the 11th.BoxBuzz wrote:On the subject of Mesi, it's interesting......I somewhat agree with you.....he wasn't a great, but for a small HW he did himself proud.
Where we apparently disagree is that I see Mesi and Valero in a similar category......two fellas who done good with limited means.
I wasn't saying Mesi was great.....I was saying he shares the Marciano cherry, just as Valero and Ottke. No more, no less.
If you wonder why Mesi when 36-0 it's because he never fought anybody.. It wasn't because the top Heavyweights didn't want to fight him... He was kept away from dangerous Heavyweights because the couldn't defend himself.. Have you ever heard of Heavyweight David Rodriguez??? Do you think he can box??? He went 36-0 just like Joe Mesi -- but his backers knew as soon as they put DR in with anybody who could box or punch he'd get killed.
Let me make something clear to you Kalan.......Anybody here will tell you I know even MORE than Zero about boxing. So don't go around publically misunderestimating what I know about this sport.
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
Fair enough, but just because your making sense, don't mean I'm impressed.
I happen to agree that Mesi was a bit on the lucky side to get out of his career with that cherry. His injury came along just in time for him to keep it.
And for fair context, yes Valero's story is almost the inverse, injured first, perfect record afterward or midstream at least, and that's an accomplishment.
However....you just can't make a serious case that Valero's competition was enough to brag about. AND the extent of his injury and what effect it had on him (if any) is simply unknowable. So whether it allows him some bragging rights is dubious at best. Regardless of the ruling by the commish. Still it's a good story, and the most impressive case scenario can not be ruled out either.
That's what "unknowable" means.
I happen to agree that Mesi was a bit on the lucky side to get out of his career with that cherry. His injury came along just in time for him to keep it.
And for fair context, yes Valero's story is almost the inverse, injured first, perfect record afterward or midstream at least, and that's an accomplishment.
However....you just can't make a serious case that Valero's competition was enough to brag about. AND the extent of his injury and what effect it had on him (if any) is simply unknowable. So whether it allows him some bragging rights is dubious at best. Regardless of the ruling by the commish. Still it's a good story, and the most impressive case scenario can not be ruled out either.
That's what "unknowable" means.
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
There's a huge difference BuzzBox... Mesi couldn't box and Valero could.. You should be able to tell that by watching them work, but I guess you can't.. Tony DeMarco was a good fighter when Valero stopped him.. DeMarco wasn't any phenomenal boxer or puncher, but he was a World Lightweight Champion who easily overwhelmed Jorge Linares and John Molina.
DeMarco was the first to stop Molina and Linares and he had some very good wins. Valero beat DeMarco every round and stopped him - the first fighter to do that.. EV didn't catch any errant blows from 2nd raters the way Mesi did and he easily out-boxed and controlled the best fighters he faced. He obviously would have been a very tough matchup for anyone.
DeMarco was the first to stop Molina and Linares and he had some very good wins. Valero beat DeMarco every round and stopped him - the first fighter to do that.. EV didn't catch any errant blows from 2nd raters the way Mesi did and he easily out-boxed and controlled the best fighters he faced. He obviously would have been a very tough matchup for anyone.
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
Actually I just checked. Linares was 31-1 and was stopped in 1 in his only loss when he faced DeMarco.. Still a great win.
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
If we are just talking about Heavyweights then my vote definitely has to go to Audley Harrison.
Granted, it was a tough time to come about (he made his debut mid 2001), with Lennox Lewis is his prime, Evander Holyfield still knocking around and the upcoming threat of the Klitchskos which was emerging - there wasn't a lot of room for him at the top.
That said, Audley's career hasn't been the abject failure that some make it out to be. He won 2 Prizefighter tournaments and was the recognized Heavyweight Champion of Europe when he obliterated Michael Sprott and got revenge for a knockout loss a few years previously.
But the facts remains that Audley could have been much better. There's little doubt that he could punch, but had he improved on his defense, he could have went further in his career and been more consistent in his performances (and his results).
Granted, it was a tough time to come about (he made his debut mid 2001), with Lennox Lewis is his prime, Evander Holyfield still knocking around and the upcoming threat of the Klitchskos which was emerging - there wasn't a lot of room for him at the top.
That said, Audley's career hasn't been the abject failure that some make it out to be. He won 2 Prizefighter tournaments and was the recognized Heavyweight Champion of Europe when he obliterated Michael Sprott and got revenge for a knockout loss a few years previously.
But the facts remains that Audley could have been much better. There's little doubt that he could punch, but had he improved on his defense, he could have went further in his career and been more consistent in his performances (and his results).
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
We've come this far without mentioning Ike...?!
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
Oh no you don't... Ike was top shelf!milpool wrote:We've come this far without mentioning Ike...?!
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Syntax Error
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9011
- Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 08:00
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
What's happened to him?milpool wrote:We've come this far without mentioning Ike...?!
Wasn't he supposed to have unified the HW championship by now?
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keithmoonhangover
- Cruiserweight
- Posts: 16893
- Joined: 16 Sep 2010, 10:42
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
This is an outrageous claim. Marvis has no wheels. Although in fairness there is more chance of Marvis becoming a motorized vehicle, than Wilt beating Ali.Kalan wrote:"Marvis is a truck."
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
Definitely Greg Page, with Michael Dokes, Tony Tucker, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tubbs, and Tim Witherspoon not far behind. In the right circumstances Carl Williams and Mitch Green.
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keithmoonhangover
- Cruiserweight
- Posts: 16893
- Joined: 16 Sep 2010, 10:42
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
Kalan...... Did you see SRR fight live? WOW! Which fight?SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Who did you train? All of these legends couldn't box worth a crap? You couldn't box your way out of a paper bag. yet, I pity you. Only three scenarios regarding you.Kalan wrote:And he couldn't box worth a crap either.. And like butterbean and Lamar Clark, he never got within sniffing range of a World Title.
So if you're going to compare Mesi to Anthony Joshua and Edwin Valero---both of whom could think and box well---you're full of manure as usual.
1) You're a mod having fun = 1% chance.
2) You're 65-70 as you claim, a rich philanthropist, who spent years at the apex of Boxing, watched the limited Ray robinson in person and carried your lifelong love for the sport to wasting your later years staying up all hours of the night on a message board to poo on Boxing and insult people= 2%(though the saddest of all)
3) You're a teenage, intelligent, nerd that has never seen a naked woman. You enjoy Boxing but have nobody to talk to about anything. Why not play tough guy expert on the internet and use your brain to calculate useless numbers and formulate hedging opinions on fighters off a database and their records to carry on a rouse of knowledge? No hate kalan, if you're the 2% and a lonely, senile man. I wish you comfort. If you're the 98% #3, don't off yourself, just get a grasp on life. Breaking through that proverbial nerd bubble won't happen for you on here. get a hooker, pop your cherry instead of zits. it will do wonders for your insecurities and passion for trolling message boards!= 97%
If it's the 1%, ban me.
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
For me
Tim Whitterspoon,Andrew Golota !
Tim Whitterspoon,Andrew Golota !
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
I don't care what somebody who knows nothing about Boxing thinks you know about it... I've seen ZERO from you as far as knowledge of Boxing... I'm not misunderstanding or underestimating your knowledge -- it just isn't there in any way, shape, or form.BoxBuzz wrote:Kalan wrote:BuzzBox... If you can't see the difference between a crude, wide open target like Joe Mesi and a great boxer-puncher like Valero, you understand ZERO about Boxing. Vassily Jirov never beat a quality Heavyweight. He lost a cruiserweight fight to blown up Middleweight James Toney (a guy who could box pretty well) by a wide margin. Jirov was nearly stopped by Toney and lost by 8-points on 2 cards.. In contrast, Joe Mesi was beaten up and suffered two subdural hematomas against Jirov.. He should have been forced to retire because of beating he took.. Mesi was given a gift decision for that miserable effort and they limited it to 10-rounds. If it had been a 12-rounder Mesi would have been stopped in the 11th.BoxBuzz wrote:On the subject of Mesi, it's interesting......I somewhat agree with you.....he wasn't a great, but for a small HW he did himself proud.
Where we apparently disagree is that I see Mesi and Valero in a similar category......two fellas who done good with limited means.
I wasn't saying Mesi was great.....I was saying he shares the Marciano cherry, just as Valero and Ottke. No more, no less.
If you wonder why Mesi when 36-0 it's because he never fought anybody.. It wasn't because the top Heavyweights didn't want to fight him... He was kept away from dangerous Heavyweights because the couldn't defend himself.. Have you ever heard of Heavyweight David Rodriguez??? Do you think he can box??? He went 36-0 just like Joe Mesi -- but his backers knew as soon as they put DR in with anybody who could box or punch he'd get killed.
Let me make something clear to you Kalan.......Anybody here will tell you I know even MORE than Zero about boxing. So don't go around publically misunderestimating what I know about this sport.
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
That's rich coming from the guy that thinks Wilt Chamberlain is the baddest Heavyweight ever. That automatically disqualified your opinion on anything Boxing related for eternity.
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keithmoonhangover
- Cruiserweight
- Posts: 16893
- Joined: 16 Sep 2010, 10:42
Re: Heavyweight: Who do you think was the biggest disappointment of the last 40 years?
gilgamesh wrote:That's rich coming from the guy that thinks Wilt Chamberlain is the baddest Heavyweight ever. That automatically disqualified your opinion on anything Boxing related for eternity.
I don't understand how anyone who knows boxing could think that.