The HEAVYWEIGHT game: *CLOSED*

[Tomasino]

Either get with the thread or get out you loser.

Well said Tom. If this guy does put up a top ten list compromising of todays fighters, then it may show him just how misguided he is.

I think he has shown conclusively that he is somewhat worse off than just misguided. He attempts to ruin every thread on here now.

[Crease]

I've been called in to work today gents & i'm on again tomorrow.
I will tally everything up on my next earliest opportunity, which will probably be monday.

But please, keep going. The more member have their say, the more comprehensive the scoreboard.

[APerno]

I've been called in to work today gents & i'm on again tomorrow.
I will tally everything up on my next earliest opportunity, which will probably be monday.

But please, keep going. The more member have their say, the more comprehensive the scoreboard.

I'm going to sneak in and edit my list while you're gone; I forgot to put Michael Dokes on my list.

[Tomasino]

I've been called in to work today gents & i'm on again tomorrow.
I will tally everything up on my next earliest opportunity, which will probably be monday.

But please, keep going. The more member have their say, the more comprehensive the scoreboard.

I'm going to sneak in and edit my list while you're gone; I forgot to put Michael Dokes on my list.

[HyacinthusTurnipseed]

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman
6. Joe Frazier
7. Sonny Liston
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Evander Holyfield
10. James Jeffries

... if it's not too late.

[Kalan]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Joe Frazier
9. Rocky Marciano
10.Mike Tyson

So now Marciano beats Mike Tyson??? ... Didn't Tyson crush ATG Light Heavyweight Michael Spinks in 90 seconds??? Spinks was built up to 212 pounds of course, but it didn't matter.. And didn't Marciano fight most of his Title Defenses against Light Heavyweights??? He seemed to struggle with those old men too.

Top 10s are normally based on achievements, level of opposition, number of defences etc.. not who could beat who.

That's the problem I have with "ring records"... What if you're heavily protected from the best opposition and cherry-pick your way through a ton of Title Defenses??? Marvis, Leon, Coopman, Evangelista, Bey, Cobb, Wepner, Cockell, Rademaker, McNeeley etc???? ... What if you're victimized, poorly backed, and you can't secure a title shot for many years because you're too dangerous to fight??? Liston... Johnson... Ortiz etc.

[Tomasino]

So now Marciano beats Mike Tyson??? ... Didn't Tyson crush ATG Light Heavyweight Michael Spinks in 90 seconds??? Spinks was built up to 212 pounds of course, but it didn't matter.. And didn't Marciano fight most of his Title Defenses against Light Heavyweights??? He seemed to struggle with those old men too.

Top 10s are normally based on achievements, level of opposition, number of defences etc.. not who could beat who.

That's the problem I have with "ring records"... What if you're heavily protected from the best opposition and cherry-pick your way through a ton of Title Defenses??? Marvis, Leon, Coopman, Evangelista, Bey, Cobb, Wepner, Cockell, Rademaker, McNeeley etc???? ... What if you're victimized, poorly backed, and you can't secure a title shot for many years because you're too dangerous to fight??? Liston... Johnson... Ortiz etc.

Ortiz

[keithmoonhangover]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Johnson
4. Dempsey
5. Tyson
6. Holmes
7. Marciano
8. Lewis
9. Foreman
10. Frazier

[Kalan]

Yes Tomasino.. Luis Ortiz.. Bryant Jennings had NO trouble going the distance with Wladimir Klistschko and won rounds off him.. But BJ won NO rounds off Ortiz and was in trouble for the opening bell.. Jennings' demeanor was that of a desperate soldier sprinting through a minefield...and praying hard... So what did Ortiz get from that spectacular performance??? ... ZERO!!! except accelerated avoidance of even mentioning his name.

I notice Bryant Jennings hasn't had a fight so far this year... They're smart to give him a ton of time off after taking those savage blows.

[bwu]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Jack Johnson
6. Jack Dempsey
7. George Foreman
8. Joe Frazier
9. James J. Jeffries
10. Lennox Lewis

[Controversial]

So now Marciano beats Mike Tyson??? ... Didn't Tyson crush ATG Light Heavyweight Michael Spinks in 90 seconds??? Spinks was built up to 212 pounds of course, but it didn't matter.. And didn't Marciano fight most of his Title Defenses against Light Heavyweights??? He seemed to struggle with those old men too.

Top 10s are normally based on achievements, level of opposition, number of defences etc.. not who could beat who.

That's the problem I have with "ring records"... What if you're heavily protected from the best opposition and cherry-pick your way through a ton of Title Defenses??? Marvis, Leon, Coopman, Evangelista, Bey, Cobb, Wepner, Cockell, Rademaker, McNeeley etc???? ... What if you're victimized, poorly backed, and you can't secure a title shot for many years because you're too dangerous to fight??? Liston... Johnson... Ortiz etc.

You can only rate people on who they fought, not who they didn't fight as you can't measure something that never happened.

[elmersalsa]

Here is my personal top ten all time heavyweight rankings:
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Johnson
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Evander Holyfield
7. George Foreman
8. Larry Holmes
9. Joe Frazier
10. Peter Jackson

[APerno]

I saw one Sam Langford, and one Peter Jackson so far - but no Harry Wills (yet!) - For the record, it wasn't just Dempsey who ducked Wills, Jack Johnson wouldn't fight him either. (Johnson did fight Langford before he was champ but wouldn't give him a title shot later) - Wills and Langford had to fight each other over and over again because everyone was ducking both of them (17 times) that is absurd. - Wills might have gotten a Dempsey fight after Dempsey lost to Tunney (the first time,) (black fighters could get fights with big name white fighters so long as there was not title on the line) but Wills got dismantled by Sharkey, (he was at the end of a great career by then,) and Sharkey got the Dempsey fight instead.

[cfang]

I saw one Sam Langford, and one Peter Jackson so far - but no Harry Wills (yet!) - For the record, it wasn't just Dempsey who ducked Wills, Jack Johnson wouldn't fight him either. (Johnson did fight Langford before he was champ but wouldn't give him a title shot later) - Wills and Langford had to fight each other over and over again because everyone was ducking both of them (17 times) that is absurd. - Wills might have gotten a Dempsey fight after Dempsey lost to Tunney (the first time,) (black fighters could get fights with big name white fighters so long as there was not title on the line) but Wills got dismantled by Sharkey, (he was at the end of a great career by then,) and Sharkey got the Dempsey fight instead.

I almost put wills in my top 10 - in particular for his incredible winning streak but just couldn't quite put him ahead of tyson and rocky, he'd defo be my number 11.

[Crease]

Keep going gents. I'm updating the scoreboard tomorrow.

[jezzamundo]

These kind of lists are so hard to make - if we're talking greatest vs best, then the lists would look quite different. For instance, Marciano has to be on a greatest list, but if we're talking about who-beats-who, then he's not in my top 10. In the end I opted for an amalgamation of the two and came up with this:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Marciano
6. Frazier
7. Lewis
8. Johnson
9. Holyfield
10. Dempsey

Liston just misses out, but I think he beats a few of the guys on that list.

[Kalan]

Top 10s are normally based on achievements, level of opposition, number of defences etc.. not who could beat who.

That's the problem I have with "ring records"... What if you're heavily protected from the best opposition and cherry-pick your way through a ton of Title Defenses??? Marvis, Leon, Coopman, Evangelista, Bey, Cobb, Wepner, Cockell, Rademaker, McNeeley etc???? ... What if you're victimized, poorly backed, and you can't secure a title shot for many years because you're too dangerous to fight??? Liston... Johnson... Ortiz etc.

You can only rate people on who they fought, not who they didn't fight as you can't measure something that never happened.

You can nick people for who they DIDN'T fight... They nick Patterson for avoiding Liston for so many years.. Why not nick Ali for fighting Leon Spinks instead of Larry Holmes??? ... I think Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson are nicked for avoiding Lewis for many years.. Joe Frazier didn't fight Lyle, Shavers, or Norton. I think those would have been interesting fights because Joe could be hit.. Marciano is nicked for not fighting Patterson.. I think there's more dangerous Heavyweights around today starting with Joshua and Ortiz.. I don't see a surge of top Heavyweights wanting to fight these guys and get knocked out.

Many reflexively put Ali on the top with no thought.. If you're rating based on who they fought I don't see great boxers who Ali fought except Holmes.

[Controversial]

That's the problem I have with "ring records"... What if you're heavily protected from the best opposition and cherry-pick your way through a ton of Title Defenses??? Marvis, Leon, Coopman, Evangelista, Bey, Cobb, Wepner, Cockell, Rademaker, McNeeley etc???? ... What if you're victimized, poorly backed, and you can't secure a title shot for many years because you're too dangerous to fight??? Liston... Johnson... Ortiz etc.

You can only rate people on who they fought, not who they didn't fight as you can't measure something that never happened.

You can nick people for who they DIDN'T fight... They nick Patterson for avoiding Liston for so many years.. Why not nick Ali for fighting Leon Spinks instead of Larry Holmes??? ... I think Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson are nicked for avoiding Lewis for many years.. Joe Frazier didn't fight Lyle, Shavers, or Norton. I think those would have been interesting fights because Joe could be hit.. Marciano is nicked for not fighting Patterson.. I think there's more dangerous Heavyweights around today starting with Joshua and Ortiz.. I don't see a surge of top Heavyweights wanting to fight these guys and get knocked out.

Many reflexively put Ali on the top with no thought.. If you're rating based on who they fought I don't see great boxers who Ali fought except Holmes.

That's too subjective though because you don't know for a fact what the result would've been. If Douglas never fought Tyson who would've thought Douglas would've won? Who would have predicted Curry losing to Honeyghan or Fury beating Klitschko if they never fought? We can all guess but no one knows for sure, that's why you can only rate fighters on their achievements, opposition and results.

In regards to Ali, who didn't he fight? What great fighters have AJ and Ortiz beaten? You comparing fighters with very few fights and experience to a fighter at the end of his career. All fighters reach a point when the new era of fighters would beat them, that's life and shouldn't be held against someone.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I saw one Sam Langford, and one Peter Jackson so far - but no Harry Wills (yet!) - For the record, it wasn't just Dempsey who ducked Wills, Jack Johnson wouldn't fight him either. (Johnson did fight Langford before he was champ but wouldn't give him a title shot later) - Wills and Langford had to fight each other over and over again because everyone was ducking both of them (17 times) that is absurd. - Wills might have gotten a Dempsey fight after Dempsey lost to Tunney (the was at the end of a great career by then,) and Sharkey got the Dempsey fight instead.

- Hope you didn't teach fairy tale history to your impressionable students.

Look, Jack mouthed a few politically correct platitudes about not defending against blacks because Rickard and Kearns wouldn't approve. He later left them to sign with Wills at least twice, but the limited national politics of the day killed off the fight, so he went to Hollywood where he made much more than he ever did boxing. The politics shifted and Rickard lured him back minus Kearns who was suing him.

At this point Tex offers Wills a title eliminator against Tunney that he declined, so the tourney went on without him. Wills had done enough to get the title shot straight up, so maybe his pride got the best of him, but revising history to fit an agenda is why Jack is needlessly savaged today.

Google Dempsey and Wills and find a dozen pics of their signing, history 101.

And for little Kalan, Dwayne Bobick was undefeated and much higher ranked than evangelista and Shavers who got title shots and higher than Tubby Lar. At that point in time remembering how Bobick turned Lar into mush at Olympic trials, Ali froze out Bobick.

Oh, and for Goldy, Foreman ruined Ali in 74. He generally had to go life and death every fight afterwards. He was prime 29 with two excellent tuneups prior to Frazier 1. In 72 he had his best year. You could look it up, but nah, that might pop your little bubble.

Yes, we were all upset over the Vietnam atrocity, but Ali won his victories in the highest court and had more fans than ever along with the moral righteousness of his beliefs. The layoff made him stronger, not ruined him. He could never run from Joe for 15 rds on his best day, so get over it, it happens, so how about his subsequent lax training, tubbiness, and reliance on being the dope on his ropadope as the explanation for such poor post Foreman performances.

[keithmoonhangover]

so he went to Hollywood where he made much more than he ever did boxing. .

You sure about that? Million dollar gates in boxing made Jack a very wealthy man. Bit parts in movies did not.

[Crease]

I'm about to start counting them up.
Results will be published within an hour or so (maybe 2, I've never attempted anything like this before)

[Crease]

I have counted them all up, I will edit my original post very shortly.

The results are fascinating thus far. Thanks to all of you who got involved, it literally couldn't have been done without you.

[Crease]

Current Scoreboard: (counted after 17 members voted)

1st - 166 pts Joe Louis
2nd - 165 pts Muhammad Ali
3rd - 108 pts Larry Holmes
4th - 100 pts George Foreman
5th - 80 pts Jack Johnson
6th - 68 pts Rocky Marciano
7th - 58 pts Lennox Lewis
8th - 56 pts Joe Frazier
9th - 53 pts Jack Dempsey
10th - 51 pts Evander Holyfield

[fightfan95]

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. George Foreman
4.Larry Holmes
5. Lennox Lewis
6.Jack Johnson
7. Joe Frazier
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Rocky Marciano

[APerno]

I saw one Sam Langford, and one Peter Jackson so far - but no Harry Wills (yet!) - For the record, it wasn't just Dempsey who ducked Wills, Jack Johnson wouldn't fight him either. (Johnson did fight Langford before he was champ but wouldn't give him a title shot later) - Wills and Langford had to fight each other over and over again because everyone was ducking both of them (17 times) that is absurd. - Wills might have gotten a Dempsey fight after Dempsey lost to Tunney (the was at the end of a great career by then,) and Sharkey got the Dempsey fight instead.

- Hope you didn't teach fairy tale history to your impressionable students.

Look, Jack mouthed a few politically correct platitudes about not defending against blacks because Rickard and Kearns wouldn't approve. He later left them to sign with Wills at least twice, but the limited national politics of the day killed off the fight, so he went to Hollywood where he made much more than he ever did boxing. The politics shifted and Rickard lured him back minus Kearns who was suing him.

At this point Tex offers Wills a title eliminator against Tunney that he declined, so the tourney went on without him. Wills had done enough to get the title shot straight up, so maybe his pride got the best of him, but revising history to fit an agenda is why Jack is needlessly savaged today.

Google Dempsey and Wills and find a dozen pics of their signing, history 101.

And for little Kalan, Dwayne Bobick was undefeated and much higher ranked than evangelista and Shavers who got title shots and higher than Tubby Lar. At that point in time remembering how Bobick turned Lar into mush at Olympic trials, Ali froze out Bobick.

Oh, and for Goldy, Foreman ruined Ali in 74. He generally had to go life and death every fight afterwards. He was prime 29 with two excellent tuneups prior to Frazier 1. In 72 he had his best year. You could look it up, but nah, that might pop your little bubble.

Yes, we were all upset over the Vietnam atrocity, but Ali won his victories in the highest court and had more fans than ever along with the moral righteousness of his beliefs. The layoff made him stronger, not ruined him. He could never run from Joe for 15 rds on his best day, so get over it, it happens, so how about his subsequent lax training, tubbiness, and reliance on being the dope on his ropadope as the explanation for such poor post Foreman performances.

some interesting thoughts - I was well aware that Rickard not Dempsey was the one who insisted Wills be avoided - Dempsey even created a "white Hope search" when Louis became champion and in his 'white hope stable' he had two black fighters - Dempsey had a sense of humor, and his prejudicial color was 'green' i.e. money - he lived in constant fear of a return to poverty - maybe it was Foreman who brought Ali to the beginning of the end that is an interesting point, but Ali still exposed Foreman's limitations - I am a big Foreman fan (both careers) I was hurt when Ali beat him -

Why did you find it necessary to personally insult me before offering your opinion - why couldn't you just debate with me without becoming insulting - I just don't get it

Finally since you insisted on insulting my teaching let me pay you back in kind - try reading the Ali decision sometime, you know, actually reading it - the case was reversed on a technicality and then the lower court did not pursue the re-prosecution a second time, which they could have if the solicitor general's office had wanted to - he did not 'win' his case - he never received CO status - the Courts backed away (snuck out a side door as they often do) from the case because the war had gone sour

But really, how about a debate without the insults