Evander Overrated Immensely

[Kalan]

quote="man"]

i don't remember any of the match-
making details back then, but didn't
bowe famously trash his belt in order
to avoid lewis?

He sure did. He was afraid of Lewis since Lennox knocked him out when he won the Olympic Gold Medal. Bowe didn't want to experience such humiliation again...

you mean this "humiliation"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K39AbwNl3QU[/quote]

You know...that's Amateur Boxing...quick standing 8's and quick stoppages... Lewis had the range with his right hand and was teeing off. He started to punish Bowe with every volley and the referee called the fight a little quickly for me---but Lewis had the fight won... You would think Bowe would want to avenge that defeat, but Lewis's right hands were finding him a little too easily and frequently ... and he never forgot that.

[BoxBuzz]

Well that's a pretty good story. And by the way I would have been glad to collect on that bet, if Lennox would have actually faced Riddick in their mutual primes.
cuz what you're sayin' aint necessarily so.

[Kalan]

I don't think you'd be dumb enough to bet on Bowe to beat Lewis... Bowe was like Ken Norton versus a puncher...so easy to hit he was a disaster.

That's why Bowe never faced McCall, Ruddock, Tyson, Mercer, Tua, and other big punchers who Lewis destroyed.

[Kalan]

Admittedly he didn't destroy Mercer and Tua... but he beat all those guys who Bowe ducked.

[BoxBuzz]

Admitting....it's the first step. We'll get ya there!

[man]

He was afraid of Lewis since Lennox knocked him out when he won the Olympic Gold Medal. Bowe didn't want to experience such humiliation again...

you mean this "humiliation"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K39AbwNl3QU

You know...that's Amateur Boxing...quick standing 8's and quick stoppages... Lewis had the range with his right hand and was teeing off. He started to punish Bowe with every volley and the referee called the fight a little quickly for me---but Lewis had the fight won... You would think Bowe would want to avenge that defeat, but Lewis's right hands were finding him a little too easily and frequently ... and he never forgot that.

so your case on bowe being afraid
rests on two right hands after which
"the referee called the fight a little
quickly"? the same bowe that went
to war with evander taking all kinds
of punishment with no head gear?

and yes, i do "know that's amateur
boxing with quick standing 8's and
quick stoppages", which is precisely
the point here. why should that make
an obviously brave man "afraid".

i for one am actually a fan of bowe's
talent, but not of his career. he is one
of the biggest wasted talents of all
time. i am still of the opinion that he
could have fought lewis, had he wanted
to, but i am open minded and people
here seem to have good arguments
that indeed he had tried. on the other
hand the olympics footage showed a
premature stoppage (even for amateur
standards) after a pretty close first
round.

[forestbox]

Still can't believe he got the draw v Lewis I scored it 117 -111.

[Kalan]

you mean this "humiliation"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K39AbwNl3QU

You know...that's Amateur Boxing...quick standing 8's and quick stoppages... Lewis had the range with his right hand and was teeing off. He started to punish Bowe with every volley and the referee called the fight a little quickly for me---but Lewis had the fight won... You would think Bowe would want to avenge that defeat, but Lewis's right hands were finding him a little too easily and frequently ... and he never forgot that.

so your case on bowe being afraid
rests on two right hands after which
"the referee called the fight a little
quickly"? the same bowe that went
to war with evander taking all kinds
of punishment with no head gear?

and yes, i do "know that's amateur
boxing with quick standing 8's and
quick stoppages", which is precisely
the point here. why should that make
an obviously brave man "afraid".

i for one am actually a fan of bowe's
talent, but not of his career. he is one
of the biggest wasted talents of all
time. i am still of the opinion that he
could have fought lewis, had he wanted
to, but i am open minded and people
here seem to have good arguments
that indeed he had tried. on the other
hand the olympics footage showed a
premature stoppage (even for amateur
standards) after a pretty close first
round.

That was more than 2 right hands... Lewis was starting to find a home on Bowe's ear for the weapon. Bowe kept trying to duck the punch in the same direction and Lewis was really pasting him.. Bowe saw what Lewis did to Razor Ruddock in the pros. That was sheer destruction.. Bowe was scared of him because Lewis was without a doubt the best Heavyweight on the planet at that time.. He was very disciplined.. Bowe was a fat boy who couldn't control his eating habits... When he saw what Lewis did to Golota he decided to stay retired.

[Bricks]

Kalans points are very valid. We often dismiss the psychological aspect of boxing.

Although I think a focused and right Bowe would beat Lewis every time. I think the Golota fights really damaged Bowe psychologically, and seeing Lewis just annihilate him would have possibly imo had an effect on Bowe.

A counterpoint is Jorge Luis Gonzala beat up Bowe and Lewis very badly in the amateurs and had a swaggering confidence yet Bowe went back in and crushed him

[Ezzard]

Don't think Holy is overrated. He could have lived with anyone.

I rate the 90s 3 as...

1 Evander
2 Lennox
3 Riddick

But I think the idea that Holy won the Lewis rematch gets overplayed. I thought Lewis won it. Close on rounds but for the most part the winner of each round was fairly clearly defined.

[man]

That was more than 2 right hands... Lewis was starting to find a home on Bowe's ear for the weapon. Bowe kept trying to duck the punch in the same direction and Lewis was really pasting him.. Bowe saw what Lewis did to Razor Ruddock in the pros.

ok, it maybe was three right hands,
but them "starting to find home" is
quite an indication that nothing big
really happened.

anyways, assuming that professional
world class heavy weight boxers are
so afraid that they are willing to leave
tons of cash on the table still seems
highly unlikely to me.

[Kalan]

Kalans points are very valid. We often dismiss the psychological aspect of boxing.

Although I think a focused and right Bowe would beat Lewis every time. I think the Golota fights really damaged Bowe psychologically, and seeing Lewis just annihilate him would have possibly imo had an effect on Bowe.

A counterpoint is Jorge Luis Gonzala beat up Bowe and Lewis very badly in the amateurs and had a swaggering confidence yet Bowe went back in and crushed him

Bowe as a dirty fighter.. The bell to end the 4th round can be heard clanging 6 times before Bowe knowingly and flagrantly fouled Gonzalez by hitting a staggering Gonzalez twice WAY after the bell.. I would have DQ'd Bowe for that.. That was one of the most outrageous fouls I've ever seen. Announcer Jim Lampley said, "That was a stupid move by Bowe, risking disqualification." George Foreman agreed "Exactly!! And if I was the referee, I would not allow Bowe to get away with that."

[scallum2015]

everyf^ckin'someone has been
juicing in boxing for decades.

Not everyone

[badkatt]

Had trouble in his prime with Larry Holmes...Holmes was cheesing in the corner Then he juiced his entire

career for all of his big fights that's why he had that heart condition. He juiced for Douglas, Tyson, Bowe, Moore, Lennox, Mercer. etc...

crack is a hella of a drug

[badkatt]

Holyfield used to be one of my favorite boxers but I cant get around the fact that he is likely the worst cheat in boxing history. When you factor in his obvious steroid abuse with all of the headbutts, low blows, elbows, etc. that helped him win fights I cant give the guy a pass. He shouldnt be allowed anywhere near a HOF.

please point me to the fights where he
excessively and intentionally fouls. i tried
to find it but in the end always thought it
was exaggerated. like in the tyson fights.
it was his style to put his head down to
protect the chin, put he hardly ever went
forward with the head while doing that in
a way that seemed intentional head butting
to me.

go watch the hasim rahman fite ....there was a little baby hasim rahman growing out of hasim rahmans head from holyfields headbutts

[man]

Holyfield used to be one of my favorite boxers but I cant get around the fact that he is likely the worst cheat in boxing history. When you factor in his obvious steroid abuse with all of the headbutts, low blows, elbows, etc. that helped him win fights I cant give the guy a pass. He shouldnt be allowed anywhere near a HOF.

please point me to the fights where he
excessively and intentionally fouls. i tried
to find it but in the end always thought it
was exaggerated. like in the tyson fights.
it was his style to put his head down to
protect the chin, put he hardly ever went
forward with the head while doing that in
a way that seemed intentional head butting
to me.

go watch the hasim rahman fite ....there was a little baby hasim rahman growing out of hasim rahmans head from holyfields headbutts

i hear you and i agree it is sometimes
controversial, but to me evander often
holds his head down without forward
motion and the other guy clashes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8y-dRy5NOM
is this a clash of heads or a "brutal
headbutt" by evander"? evander holds
his head down, which is not illegal and
rahman crushes into it.

for me that doesn't make him the big
headbutter and in my view mike tyson
lost fair and square and was not butted
into defeat as he tries to portray it.

[Tuan_Jim]

It shows what Bowe is reduced to because he ducked money fights with Lewis.. Mercer.. Ruddock.. McCall.. Tyson.. Tua.. etc. in his prime.

For the millionth time, he never ducked Mercer - Mercer had a shot at Bowe but blew it by losing to Ferguson.


He signed to fight Lewis but Lewis got KOd by McCall. He tried to fight Lewis again but Lewis opted to fighter Mercer, who was a year out and coming off a loss to Holyfield.

Citing Ruddock, McCall and Tua confirms your ignorance of the period.

When Tyson came out of prison Bowe/Tyson was considered The Fight and Team Bowe were desperate for it. Alas Tyson was never going to be allowed near Bowe and got squashed by a guy Bowe brutally KOd the year before.

You don't know any of this because you didn't follow boxing in the 1990s. You look at Boxrec and if a fight isn't there you make up a reason for why it didn't happen. You get shown up by your ignorance of events repeatedly, on a daily basis, and you continue to blather on like a braindead retard who can't digest information.

All of the above is either plain and simple lies, or badly researched mistakes. This is how it panned out.

On 31 October 1992, Lewis knocked out Canadian Donovan "Razor" Ruddock in two rounds for the number one contender's position in the WBC rankings. It was Lewis' most impressive win to date, and established him as one of the world's best heavyweights. Sportscaster Larry Merchant declared, "We have a great new heavyweight."
The win over Ruddock made Lewis the number one contender for Riddick Bowe's heavyweight championship. Bowe refused to face Lewis, and held a press conference to dump his title in a trash can and relinquish it. On 14 December 1992, the WBC declared Lewis its champion, making him the first world heavyweight titleholder from Britain in the 20th century.
Lewis defended the belt three times, defeating Tony Tucker, whom he knocked down for the first time in Tucker's career, and he followed this with knockout victories over Frank Bruno and Phil Jackson. The Lennox Lewis vs. Frank Bruno fight was the first time two British-born boxers fought for a version of the world heavyweight title in the modern era.

Lewis at the time, was basic, only using jabs and straight rights. It wasn’t until when trainer Emanuel Steward came in, Lewis became a much better fighter.

Bowe’s camp had given Lewis 2 offers to fight them. Lewis did not like the offer and turned it down. But then, Lewis had changed his mind and took the offer. Bowe’s camp responded by saying they had changed their mind.

The World Boxing Council had wanted Bowe to defend the title but with Bowe refusing, he went on television and threw the WBC into the garbage and said if Lewis wants the belt, he can get it from the garbage and that we can call him “garbage picker”.

It seemed clear Riddick was afraid of Lewis.

In his first comeback fight, Lewis was given a chance to fight for the mandatory challenger position within the WBC and won it by knocking out American contender Lionel Butler. However, at the behest of promoter Don King, the WBC bypassed him and gave Mike Tyson the first chance at the title recently won by Briton Frank Bruno from Oliver McCall. Bruno had previously lost to both Lewis and Tyson.
Lewis had the number 1 contender's slot in the WBC rankings when he knocked out Australian Justin Fortune, then defeated former WBO Champion Tommy Morrison in October 1995, followed by Olympic gold medalist and former WBO champion Ray Mercer in a close majority decision in May 1996. Lewis successfully sued to force Tyson to make a mandatory defence of the WBC title against him or force him to give up the title, winning a four million dollar settlement from promoter Don King. Rather than fight Lewis, Tyson relinquished the WBC title to fight Evander Holyfield. The WBC title was declared vacant. This set up a rematch between Lewis and McCall, who met on 7 February 1997 in Las Vegas for the WBC title.

Essentially Bowe was in no position to offer Lewis anything in 96 as Lewis was the #1 challenger, whilst big daddy was getting battered by Golota.

"Lies"? "Badly researched mistakes"?

Bowe did sign to fight Lewis, cretin. It was a massive story in 94. Read it & weep: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=197069

And get your timelines straight. Bowe and HBO's attempt to make a Bowe/Lewis fight in 96 pre-dates Lewis/Mercer and Bowe/Golota. It would be a fight to complete their unofficial 'Real heavyweight championship' tourney (Lewis/Morrison & Bowe/Holyfield III) which was intended to antidote the Don King/Showtime circus of Tyson, Botha, Bruno, Seldon et al. Lewis declined the mega money PPV Bowe fight and instead fought Mercer for little money. The fiercely pro-Lewis British title, Boxing Monthly, were mystified by why their man turned a Bowe fight down.

To say Bowe was "in no position to offer" anyone anything in 96, pre-Golota, shows dazzling lack of knowledge of the era. Bowe was considered the best in the world. All roads appeared, at this point, to lead to Bowe/Tyson. The other big fight was Foreman/Tyson, which the bulk of the media did not want to see. Consult The Ring, Boxing Illustrated, KO, the Schulbergs and McIllvanneys etc etc.

[Counter-puncher]

Its like trying to explain the concept of sub-prime mortgages to an Amazonian indian untouched by civilisation

[Counter-puncher]

Hi, kalan

[Tuan_Jim]

All of the above is either plain and simple lies, or badly researched mistakes. This is how it panned out.

On 31 October 1992, Lewis knocked out Canadian Donovan "Razor" Ruddock in two rounds for the number one contender's position in the WBC rankings. It was Lewis' most impressive win to date, and established him as one of the world's best heavyweights. Sportscaster Larry Merchant declared, "We have a great new heavyweight."
The win over Ruddock made Lewis the number one contender for Riddick Bowe's heavyweight championship. Bowe refused to face Lewis, and held a press conference to dump his title in a trash can and relinquish it. On 14 December 1992, the WBC declared Lewis its champion, making him the first world heavyweight titleholder from Britain in the 20th century.
Lewis defended the belt three times, defeating Tony Tucker, whom he knocked down for the first time in Tucker's career, and he followed this with knockout victories over Frank Bruno and Phil Jackson. The Lennox Lewis vs. Frank Bruno fight was the first time two British-born boxers fought for a version of the world heavyweight title in the modern era.

Lewis at the time, was basic, only using jabs and straight rights. It wasn’t until when trainer Emanuel Steward came in, Lewis became a much better fighter.

Bowe’s camp had given Lewis 2 offers to fight them. Lewis did not like the offer and turned it down. But then, Lewis had changed his mind and took the offer. Bowe’s camp responded by saying they had changed their mind.

The World Boxing Council had wanted Bowe to defend the title but with Bowe refusing, he went on television and threw the WBC into the garbage and said if Lewis wants the belt, he can get it from the garbage and that we can call him “garbage picker”.

It seemed clear Riddick was afraid of Lewis.

In his first comeback fight, Lewis was given a chance to fight for the mandatory challenger position within the WBC and won it by knocking out American contender Lionel Butler. However, at the behest of promoter Don King, the WBC bypassed him and gave Mike Tyson the first chance at the title recently won by Briton Frank Bruno from Oliver McCall. Bruno had previously lost to both Lewis and Tyson.
Lewis had the number 1 contender's slot in the WBC rankings when he knocked out Australian Justin Fortune, then defeated former WBO Champion Tommy Morrison in October 1995, followed by Olympic gold medalist and former WBO champion Ray Mercer in a close majority decision in May 1996. Lewis successfully sued to force Tyson to make a mandatory defence of the WBC title against him or force him to give up the title, winning a four million dollar settlement from promoter Don King. Rather than fight Lewis, Tyson relinquished the WBC title to fight Evander Holyfield. The WBC title was declared vacant. This set up a rematch between Lewis and McCall, who met on 7 February 1997 in Las Vegas for the WBC title.

Essentially Bowe was in no position to offer Lewis anything in 96 as Lewis was the #1 challenger, whilst big daddy was getting battered by Golota.

"Lies"? "Badly researched mistakes"?

Bowe did sign to fight Lewis, cretin. It was a massive story in 94. Read it & weep: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=197069

And get your timelines straight. Bowe and HBO's attempt to make a Bowe/Lewis fight in 96 pre-dates Lewis/Mercer and Bowe/Golota. It would be a fight to complete their unofficial 'Real heavyweight championship' tourney (Lewis/Morrison & Bowe/Holyfield III) which was intended to antidote the Don King/Showtime circus of Tyson, Botha, Bruno, Seldon et al. Lewis declined the mega money PPV Bowe fight and instead fought Mercer for little money. The fiercely pro-Lewis British title, Boxing Monthly, were mystified by why their man turned a Bowe fight down.

To say Bowe was "in no position to offer" anyone anything in 96, pre-Golota, shows dazzling lack of knowledge of the era. Bowe was considered the best in the world. All roads appeared, at this point, to lead to Bowe/Tyson. The other big fight was Foreman/Tyson, which the bulk of the media did not want to see. Consult The Ring, Boxing Illustrated, KO, the Schulbergs and McIllvanneys etc etc.

You want to use words like cretin, then proceed to post some article written by Glyn Leach in which Dan Duva calls Bowe's manager a feckin liar. It doesn't get much more cretinous than that. Yet you still insist Lewis turned down " mega money " which Duva clearly stated was NEVER on the table in the first place to fight Mercer. You purposely ignore Lewis's ranking and position as #1 contender because it doesn't suit your agenda, and latch onto some cock and bull story about Bowe changing his mind about fighting Lewis 2 years after he bottled it and threw the belt away rather than face LL. Next you will be claiming that other creep Tyson didn't drop the belt and pay Lewis 4 million in step aside money so he could take the " easy " option in Holyfield.

I have less than zero interest in what US boxing publications, or their editors believed then or now. Suffice to say after the McCall defeat Lewis did everything that was expected of him to get the chance to regain the WBC title. Bowe was irrelevant in those terms because he bottled out of the fight when it mattered after Lewis had destroyed Ruddock in 92.

I see your game is to deliberately misread everything, and dismiss that which doesn't support your half-researched version of events.

There is a ton of contemporaneous media right there that says Lewis and Bowe have signed to fight each other. All the fight needed was for them to come through the respective challenges of Larry Donald and Oliver McCall. Again - the fight was signed. SIGNED. If you are going to deny that, you may as well deny that the sun is hot.

I can't fathom what you mean by this: "Yet you still insist Lewis turned down " mega money " which Duva clearly stated was NEVER on the table in the first place to fight Mercer." What are you on about? Lewis turned down a major Bowe/HBO fight in 96 and proceeded to instead fight Ray Mercer for chump change, in a performance that badly damaged his reputation. ('Will Lewis EVER Be Ready To Fight Tyson?" asked the British, fiercely pro-Lewis Boxing Monthly magazine in their writeup of Lewis/Mercer).

[Tuan_Jim]

Oh, I see I'm dealing with Kalan again, posting under a new name. The ritual muddling of timeframes to confuse debate, the dismissing of printed sources when they don't suit the agenda, the reliance on small sections of printed sources to corroborate other points, the continual insertions of strawmen, and of course refuting points no one has made, it's all there.

Read all of what was written regarding the proposed 95 fight, rather than the first half of the first page, then say whatever you like. The Duvas feeling slighted, and contradicting aspects of the deal, does not mean there is not a deal. Duva himself says the fight will happen in 95. Whatever, this is why I took myself off to the Brit forum, BOTP has become bogged down by lifeless hermit retards like Kalan, playing their infantile games. The sky is green. Grass is blue. blah blah blah, who has time to entertain this crap.

[BoxBuzz]

Firstly I have no idea, or interest in who Kalan is, or isn't. Furthermore I have even less interest in the opinions of Americans who as normal want to write their revisionist versions of history. Bowe flat out ducked Lewis whether Americans like it or not.

Take it or leave it, I couldn't care less.

Well we can all agree that the fight never happened. Of that there is no doubt on either side.


Might want to take a look at the entire record....seems clear that there was mischief on both sides......the Lennox side is far more popular, believed, and advertised. However if one looks at the full record....it's easy to become skeptical of what has become the most popular take.

[Kalan]

Kalans points are very valid. We often dismiss the psychological aspect of boxing.

Although I think a focused and right Bowe would beat Lewis every time. I think the Golota fights really damaged Bowe psychologically, and seeing Lewis just annihilate him would have possibly imo had an effect on Bowe.

A counterpoint is Jorge Luis Gonzala beat up Bowe and Lewis very badly in the amateurs and had a swaggering confidence yet Bowe went back in and crushed him

Bow should have lost the Gonzalez fight by DQ... He hit Gonzalez with several punches well after the bell ending the 4th round started clanging away... HBO commentator Jim Lampley called Bowe "stupid" and said he was flirting with disqualification... Bowe also should have been DQ'd against Buster Mathis Jr. for hitting him with a KO punch while he was clearly down on one knee.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Bowe dropped the belt in the trash because a holyfield rematch was more money.after everything Lewis accomplished people forget that he wasn't near the draw or name that evander was then. Holyfield/Ruddock was the expected fight.

[Kalan]

Bowe dropped the belt in the trash because a holyfield rematch was more money.after everything Lewis accomplished people forget that he wasn't near the draw or name that evander was then. Holyfield/Ruddock was the expected fight.

Bowe was afraid of Lewis as wasn't afraid of Holyfield... Bowe was so broke at the end of his career he allowed himself to be kicked to pieces by an unknown kickboxer... A Lewis fight would have put a lot of stash in the bank -- and it's not as if you can't fight BOTH Lewis AND Holyfield if money is your foremost agenda... Holyfield had 7 fights with Bowe, Lewis, and Tyson -- and that paid for a lot of his illegitimate children.

Lewis did it right... He couldn't get some scared assed opponents to fight him... but he socked his money into good investments and didn't father 12 kids.