The HEAVYWEIGHT game: *CLOSED*

[Crease]

10 votes

Thank you for your contribution, sir.

[Crease]

I'm not going to update the scoreboard any more today, I've got things to do this evening. But hopefully people will continue contributing to our poll and help it develop.

[Kalan]

Dempsey fought a lot of guys bigger than Holyfield, such as Willard, Morris, and Fulton. Just because you were born in the 19th Century doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be smaller, shorter, bigger, or taller than an athlete from another era. There are always going to be natural Flyweights and there will always be natural Heavyweights. Goliath was born a long time ago.

I can see how being better nourished as a child and playing Football, Basketball, Track & Field, and getting Phy Ed in high school and college are going to help you get bigger and stronger and realize more of your athletic potential -- but your genetic makeup is going to determine 90% of that unless you're stunted by extreme poverty.

I see a young Dempsey 24 and younger doing well in different eras and against certain styles. Wide open guys like Marciano, Patterson, Frazier, Baer, Braddock, Johansson, Carnera, Ali, Walcott, Sharkey, Leon Spinks, Burns, Sullivan, Hart and other Heavyweight Champs with leaky defenses would go down to his sheer savagery and power.. But Holmes, Holyfield, Louis, Lewis, the Klitschko Bros, Johnson, Haye, Joshua, and the more skilled Heavyweights would likely beat him.

[APerno]

A game which will be decided by the wisdom of the crowd.

Each of us has our own opinions on who was better than who, or which achievement was greater than others.
But let's bring it all together and allow simple mathematics to decide it all.

The game is this, each poster names and ranks his Top 10 Heavyweights of all time and with each ranking comes a certain number of points.
First place gets 10 points, tenth place gets 1 point - and everything fits in between.

Posters are NOT allowed to edit their posts or change their minds as it will effect the overall accumulated points for each fighter.

I will keep a track of the total scoring each time I'm online. This game has a 30-day deadline, after 30 days - the final points totals will be decided.
Our deadline day will be October 1st.

Posters declared: (18 thus far)
Crease
SaadOffTheDeck
gilgamesh
Tomasino
Tony1244
dr_devious
Boxing Writer
cfang
BoxBuzz
BroughtonRulesRefuge
APerno
golden oldie
HyacinthusTurnipseed
keithmoonhangover
bwu
elmersalsa
jezzamundo
fightfan95


Current Scoreboard: (counted after 18 members voted)

1st - 176 pts Joe Louis
2nd - 174 pts Muhammad Ali
3rd - 115 pts Larry Holmes
4th - 108 pts George Foreman
5th - 85 pts Jack Johnson
6th - 69 pts Rocky Marciano
7th - 64 pts Lennox Lewis
8th - 59 pts Joe Frazier
9th - 55 pts Jack Dempsey
10th - 54 pts Evander Holyfield

11th - 27 pts Sonny Liston
12th - 13 pts Mike Tyson
13th - 10 pts Gene Tunney
14th - 09 pts Wladimir Klitchsko
Tied 15th - 06 pts Sam Langford
Tied 15th - 06 pts John L Sullivan
Tied 17th - 04 pts Vitali Klitchsko
Tied 17th - 04 pts James J Jeffries
19th - 03 pts Riddick Bowe
Tied 20th - 01 pt Ezzard Charles
Tied 20th - 01 pt Peter Jackson

Happy but surprised Big George is so high on the list; very surprised Frazier is so high, there are at least four names on the lower list I would bet on over Frazier.

[Tony1244]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Lennox Lewis
5. Gene Tunney
6. Jack Johnson
7. Rocky Marciano
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Sonny Liston


Very hard thing to do. I not only find arguments with other people's lists, I find arguments with my own list.

Lol, all I can do not to ask how anyone in their right mind can put tyson over holyfield. Not like it's different eras, much better resume and h2h dominance. Tunney is curious. He had less than a handful of fights.

Yes, I'd rank Holy over Tyson, if I had them ranked, because I think it's a good idea to go by results. I realize Tunney is a "curious" pick as he doesn't make it on too many top 10 HW lists these days. He was 2-0 against Dempsey of course, and some have Dempsey on the list and not Tunney. I'm a sucker for a masterful boxer with a great record like Tunney.

[APerno]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Lennox Lewis
5. Gene Tunney
6. Jack Johnson
7. Rocky Marciano
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Sonny Liston


Very hard thing to do. I not only find arguments with other people's lists, I find arguments with my own list.

Lol, all I can do not to ask how anyone in their right mind can put tyson over holyfield. Not like it's different eras, much better resume and h2h dominance. Tunney is curious. He had less than a handful of fights.

Yes, I'd rank Holy over Tyson, if I had them ranked, because I think it's a good idea to go by results. I realize Tunney is a "curious" pick as he doesn't make it on too many top 10 HW lists these days. He was 2-0 against Dempsey of course, and some have Dempsey on the list and not Tunney. I'm a sucker for a masterful boxer with a great record like Tunney.

I got to say it yet again (I m a broken record about this) but Dempsey was way pass his best when he fought Tunney, (three full years off) Dempsey takes Tunney apart in '23 - sorry just can't get myself to let it go - as far as Tunney goes, (I think) it's just that his record at light heavy is so amazing that he ends up getting more credit at HW than (many believe) he deserves. - I put him on my list because he is one of the best pure boxers (so they say) have read about; there aren't any real good films of his fights)

[APerno]

Dempsey fought a lot of guys bigger than Holyfield, such as Willard, Morris, and Fulton. Just because you were born in the 19th Century doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be smaller, shorter, bigger, or taller than an athlete from another era. There are always going to be natural Flyweights and there will always be natural Heavyweights. Goliath was born a long time ago.

I can see how being better nourished as a child and playing Football, Basketball, Track & Field, and getting Phy Ed in high school and college are going to help you get bigger and stronger and realize more of your athletic potential -- but your genetic makeup is going to determine 90% of that unless you're stunted by extreme poverty.

I see a young Dempsey 24 and younger doing well in different eras and against certain styles. Wide open guys like Marciano, Patterson, Frazier, Baer, Braddock, Johansson, Carnera, Ali, Walcott, Sharkey, Leon Spinks, Burns, Sullivan, Hart and other Heavyweight Champs with leaky defenses would go down to his sheer savagery and power.. But Holmes, Holyfield, Louis, Lewis, the Klitschko Bros, Johnson, Haye, Joshua, and the more skilled Heavyweights would likely beat him.

Sorry Kalan but we will just have to agree to disagree yet again - I say just look at the NFL over the past 50 years, people (human beings) have gotten bigger, yes nourishment wise mostly (just nourishment alone is enough to turn a 187 lbs. Dempsey into a 220 lbs. fighter, it did it to Holyfield who started out at under 190) but there is also some genetics going on - average height of a Revolutionary War soldier in 1776 was 5' 6" (white population), average height of the white population today, just over 6 foot - the Bible thing again, huh! - I'll bet Goliath stood at 5' 10" in a world full of 4' 6" people. [Said with a smile]

[APerno]

Another interesting discussion would be what match-ups, between these great fighters, would have made for an exciting fight to watch; not necessarily who would have won. I would kill to sit ringside at Dempsey-Frazier.

[keithmoonhangover]

Current Scoreboard: (counted after 17 members voted)

1st - 166 pts Joe Louis
2nd - 165 pts Muhammad Ali
3rd - 108 pts Larry Holmes
4th - 100 pts George Foreman
5th - 80 pts Jack Johnson
6th - 68 pts Rocky Marciano
7th - 58 pts Lennox Lewis
8th - 56 pts Joe Frazier
9th - 53 pts Jack Dempsey
10th - 51 pts Evander Holyfield

No Joshua? No Wilt?

[witherspoon]

1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Holmes
4.Lewis
4.Foreman
6 .Johnson
7.Holyfield
8.Frazier
9.Liston
10.Tyson

(can I do that, with the 4's?)

I hate making lists. In two hours I could come up with something completely different.
But this thread deserves some attention seeing as Crease has made an effort so here is my contribution.

[Crease]

4.Lewis
4.Foreman

(can I do that, with the 4's?)

Well not really seeing as you would be giving you more points than the rest of us. But I'll include your input as Lennox taking 4th, George taking 5th. And you can correct me if I'm mistaken and I can adjust it.

But this thread deserves some attention seeing as Crease has made an effort so here is my contribution.

And thank you for it, sir.

[Crease]

And with those recent additions, Lennox Lewis overtakes The Rock and positions himself comfortably in sixth.
And Evander Holyfield has claimed ninth place, Jack Dempsey slips down one.

Current Scoreboard: (counted after 19 members voted)

1st - 185 pts Joe Louis
2nd - 184 pts Muhammad Ali
3rd - 123 pts Larry Holmes
4th - 114 pts George Foreman
5th - 90 pts Jack Johnson
6th - 71 pts Lennox Lewis
7th - 69 pts Rocky Marciano
8th - 62 pts Joe Frazier
9th - 58 pts Evander Holyfield
10th - 55 pts Jack Dempsey

[Crease]

I haven't went into details about my own picks, so I'll take a moment to do that now.

1 Rocky Marciano
A dominant fighter in a highly competitive time in the Heavyweight division. Had to beat 5 top-class competitors before he even got his title shot. Lots of good fighters around in his day, a lot of them went to the HOF. However, The Rock is badly underrated these days with the "height is might" argument that is becoming so prevalent these days. But Marciano could still hit you hard and often in the 15th round.

2 Joe Louis
Probably the most complete Heavyweight ever seen and the best finisher in the history of the division. But a loss to my number 1, to Ezzard Charles & a disputed victory over Walcott, slots him in to my no 2.

3 Muhammad Ali
One of the best, no doubt. But I've watched a lot of his fights and he did get "off the hook" in some of them - against Doug Jones & Henry Cooper. Maybe not the invincible fighting machine that some make him out to be. And remember - in the 15th round of the 'Thrilla, Joe wanted back out - Ali wanted his gloves cut off.

4 George Foreman
A strange one. The man with 2 careers. I think if you combine the achievements of Old George and Young George - you really have to rate him very highly in this list. No surprise to me that so many people have him so high up their lists.

5 Jack Dempsey
Often forgotten about. Clearly he didn't fight enough because the glitz of Hollywood distracted him. But to his lasting credit - he did have Tunney down for 13/14 seconds - the old argument of whether Gene could have gotten up is a matter for opinion, but the fact is he was still down for 10 (and more).

6 Jack Johnson
Had probably the most difficult road of all Heavyweights named on these lists. But he achieved his dream, became the first black Heavyweight Champion and wrecked the "great white hopes" for fun (Ketchel & Jeffries).

7 Joe Frazier
I think Joe's record speaks for itself. He only ever lost to Ali & Foreman (who are both ahead of him). But what stands to him is the fact that in the 'Thrilla he gave Ali hell itself, showing how evenly matched they were. So if Ali is so high ranked on people's list, clearly he drags Frazier up along with him.

8 Mike Tyson
What he did in the late 80s was jaw-dropping. But he's a wee bit like Foreman, another man with 2 careers. In the 90s he reclaimed a World title back, but then ran into a prime Evander Holyfield. He's loss to Lewis is negligible because Lewis was in his prime, Mike was just an old fat, slower version of himself.

9 Larry Holmes
A dominant Champion for a long while and with an incredibly long title reign. Yet it has to be said, his reign was against some extremely limited opponents (Osvaldo Ocasio, Lorenzo Zanon) - kinda makes today's Heavyweight scene look good if you're counting these guys as credible contenders. So with Larry, I do rate him but not as highly as others.

10 Lennox Lewis
Lennox is a difficult one. Sure, he won most of his fights and gathered a few World titles, but the fact remains he never fought a prime Tyson. And let's be honest - where are his great wins? Sure you definitely have to count the second Holyfield fight as his biggest night. But are really saying that beating Frank Bruno or Phil Jackson is enough to score him very high. Not for me I'm afraid. And I always had a doubt about Lennox when he was fighting - something that McCall & Rahman exposed when they beat him.

[Tomasino]

I haven't went into details about my own picks, so I'll take a moment to do that now.

1 Rocky Marciano
A dominant fighter in a highly competitive time in the Heavyweight division. Had to beat 5 top-class competitors before he even got his title shot. Lots of good fighters around in his day, a lot of them went to the HOF. However, The Rock is badly underrated these days with the "height is might" argument that is becoming so prevalent these days. But Marciano could still hit you hard and often in the 15th round.

2 Joe Louis
Probably the most complete Heavyweight ever seen and the best finisher in the history of the division. But a loss to my number 1, to Ezzard Charles & a disputed victory over Walcott, slots him in to my no 2.

3 Muhammad Ali
One of the best, no doubt. But I've watched a lot of his fights and he did get "off the hook" in some of them - against Doug Jones & Henry Cooper. Maybe not the invincible fighting machine that some make him out to be. And remember - in the 15th round of the 'Thrilla, Joe wanted back out - Ali wanted his gloves cut off.

4 George Foreman
A strange one. The man with 2 careers. I think if you combine the achievements of Old George and Young George - you really have to rate him very highly in this list. No surprise to me that so many people have him so high up their lists.

5 Jack Dempsey
Often forgotten about. Clearly he didn't fight enough because the glitz of Hollywood distracted him. But to his lasting credit - he did have Tunney down for 13/14 seconds - the old argument of whether Gene could have gotten up is a matter for opinion, but the fact is he was still down for 10 (and more).

6 Jack Johnson
Had probably the most difficult road of all Heavyweights named on these lists. But he achieved his dream, became the first black Heavyweight Champion and wrecked the "great white hopes" for fun (Ketchel & Jeffries).

7 Joe Frazier
I think Joe's record speaks for itself. He only ever lost to Ali & Foreman (who are both ahead of him). But what stands to him is the fact that in the 'Thrilla he gave Ali hell itself, showing how evenly matched they were. So if Ali is so high ranked on people's list, clearly he drags Frazier up along with him.

8 Mike Tyson
What he did in the late 80s was jaw-dropping. But he's a wee bit like Foreman, another man with 2 careers. In the 90s he reclaimed a World title back, but then ran into a prime Evander Holyfield. He's loss to Lewis is negligible because Lewis was in his prime, Mike was just an old fat, slower version of himself.

9 Larry Holmes
A dominant Champion for a long while and with an incredibly long title reign. Yet it has to be said, his reign was against some extremely limited opponents (Osvaldo Ocasio, Lorenzo Zanon) - kinda makes today's Heavyweight scene look good if you're counting these guys as credible contenders. So with Larry, I do rate him but not as highly as others.

10 Lennox Lewis
Lennox is a difficult one. Sure, he won most of his fights and gathered a few World titles, but the fact remains he never fought a prime Tyson. And let's be honest - where are his great wins? Sure you definitely have to count the second Holyfield fight as his biggest night. But are really saying that beating Frank Bruno or Phil Jackson is enough to score him very high. Not for me I'm afraid. And I always had a doubt about Lennox when he was fighting - something that McCall & Rahman exposed when they beat him.

Good post Crease. I was interested in your thoughts on the Rock. One of my favourites too. Always sticks with me that Ezzard, Jersey Joe and Joe Louis all thought he was by far the hardest puncher they had faced. Add in his unmatched determination, underrated defence and fearlessness and you have a very formidable fighter. Criminally underrated like you say, due to size.

[SteveO]

1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Holmes
4.Lewis
5.Johnson
6.Foreman
7.Wladimir Klitschko
8.Marciano
9.Jeffries
10.Tyson

[Ambling Alp II]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Foreman
4. Johnson
5. Frazier
6. Holmes
7. Holyfield
8. Lewis
9. Marciano
10. Dempsey

[jezzamundo]

I can do not to ask how anyone in their right mind can put tyson over holyfield.

- Larded hinds can never comprehend that fight minds know Tyson and others have a vastly superior title heavy record compared to Mr Field.

1 Joe Louis
2 Wlad Klitschko
3 Jack Dempsey
4 George Foreman
5 Sam Langford
6 Ali
7 Vitali Klitschko
8 Rocky
9 Jim Jeffries
10 Joe Frazier

Hope this poll is tallied by sum totals rather than idiotic median.

Still going on about that? Obsessed much?! You've already lost this argument so I don't see what you think you'll gain from bringing it up again. Anyway, you're in luck here. While doing it this way is less representative than median, it's certainly easier to tally, especially when dealing with such large numbers, so I can understand why Crease chose this methodology.

[APerno]

I can do not to ask how anyone in their right mind can put tyson over holyfield.

- Larded hinds can never comprehend that fight minds know Tyson and others have a vastly superior title heavy record compared to Mr Field.

1 Joe Louis
2 Wlad Klitschko
3 Jack Dempsey
4 George Foreman
5 Sam Langford
6 Ali
7 Vitali Klitschko
8 Rocky
9 Jim Jeffries
10 Joe Frazier

Hope this poll is tallied by sum totals rather than idiotic median.

Still going on about that? Obsessed much?! You've already lost this argument so I don't see what you think you'll gain from bringing it up again. Anyway, you're in luck here. While doing it this way is less representative than median, it's certainly easier to tally, especially when dealing with such large numbers, so I can understand why Crease chose this methodology.

Like Big George, maybe he's separating Tyson into careers, pre-bite Tyson and post-bite Tyson.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I haven't went into details about my own picks, so I'll take a moment to do that now.


8 Mike Tyson
What he did in the late 80s was jaw-dropping. But he's a wee bit like Foreman, another man with 2 careers. In the 90s he reclaimed a World title back, but then ran into a prime Evander Holyfield. He's loss to Lewis is negligible because Lewis was in his prime, Mike was just an old fat, slower version of himself.

Prime Holyfield? Ummm,no.

[Tony1244]

Lol, all I can do not to ask how anyone in their right mind can put tyson over holyfield. Not like it's different eras, much better resume and h2h dominance. Tunney is curious. He had less than a handful of fights.

Yes, I'd rank Holy over Tyson, if I had them ranked, because I think it's a good idea to go by results. I realize Tunney is a "curious" pick as he doesn't make it on too many top 10 HW lists these days. He was 2-0 against Dempsey of course, and some have Dempsey on the list and not Tunney. I'm a sucker for a masterful boxer with a great record like Tunney.

I got to say it yet again (I m a broken record about this) but Dempsey was way pass his best when he fought Tunney, (three full years off) Dempsey takes Tunney apart in '23 - sorry just can't get myself to let it go - as far as Tunney goes, (I think) it's just that his record at light heavy is so amazing that he ends up getting more credit at HW than (many believe) he deserves. - I put him on my list because he is one of the best pure boxers (so they say) have read about; there aren't any real good films of his fights)

Dempsey was about 32 or 33 when he fought Tunney, right? That's not very old, but Jack may have been drinking a lot and what else. It was the roaring 20s. I've defended Ali's lousy performances when he was just a couple years older, so I see your point. Dempsey was a great character and part of American Folklore, but was he really that great? His best wins were Sharkey and Willard. I confess to not knowing a great deal about most of his other wins. Miske? Flynn?

[Crease]

Prime Holyfield? Ummm,no.

You don't think so, Mr Saad?
I would tend to say that Holyfield's 1996 devastation of Tyson was his greatest performance of his career.

[BoxBuzz]

Prime Holyfield? Ummm,no.

You don't think so, Mr Saad?
I would tend to say that Holyfield's 1996 devastation of Tyson was his greatest performance of his career.

Well it's arguable that Ali's, Duran's and SRR's greatest performances were beyond their prime as well. It happens.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Prime Holyfield? Ummm,no.

You don't think so, Mr Saad?
I would tend to say that Holyfield's 1996 devastation of Tyson was his greatest performance of his career.

I've never heard anyone say that was prime Evander. Mid 30's, body breaking down a bit. He would have always beaten Mike, but he wqas clearly past his best.

[Crease]

Well it's arguable that Ali's, Duran's and SRR's greatest performances were beyond their prime as well. It happens.

It certainly happened that way for Jersey Joe Walcott. I know there's a compelling argument to say that he was badly mismanaged for years. But if his performances against Ezzard Charles are anything to go by, there's no doubting he did improve.

We also have to look at Bernard Hopkins - who was still producing very good results well in to his 40s.

And Archie Moore competed at a high level for an obscene amount of years.

[Ambling Alp II]

Prime Holyfield? Ummm,no.

You don't think so, Mr Saad?
I would tend to say that Holyfield's 1996 devastation of Tyson was his greatest performance of his career.

Well it's arguable that Ali's, Duran's and SRR's greatest performances were beyond their prime as well. It happens.

It didn't happen with Ali, Duran or Robinson though.

A fighter can have a great performance late in his career that is surprising. However, very rarely is it actually better than his best performances during his prime.

Holyfield's best performances were well before this. He did look better against Tyson than he did in the first Michael Moorer fight for example. However, he was better in the two Bowe fights, vs Douglas, Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes etc.