Caractacus wrote:Reg Gutteridge "The voice of boxing " had published his autobiography in 1998 entitled Uppercuts and Dazes.
I would be surprised if he did not write about the Clay vrs Cooper fight in his book being that he was at ringside and did the live commentery for it.
Has anyone here read the book ?
In his book Reg refers to the then recent archive recovery of the BBC commentary and says the round overran by six seconds.
Do you mean the BBC radio broadcast of the bout ?
Because it would appear that ITV had kinescoped it for delay for the "World of Sport" programme.
BTW could you give us a direct quote from the book?
APerno wrote:No doubt you guys have beaten this issue to death (18 pages worth) but that doesn't mean I can't be a CS and screw with it all over again - so I have two questions: Did they change the split glove between rounds, and if so how did they do it in one minute and five seconds - or the one minute, 40 seconds identified below? - both amounts of time seem way too short to unlace and change a glove considering the video you showed me shows Clay being tended to to for at least 30 of those seconds (that whole up and down, 'where am I' moment clay was having) - that was only one question, the second question: Why does the quote below, from Fightsaga.com use Boxrec as its source; where on Boxrec is this quote taken from and how come Boxrec does not agree with you guys? Does Boxrec claim 1:40 or is this quote fallacious?
Sorry - I can understand your frustration with having to argue the same point over and over again, I apologize for that - but it is all new info to me and while I have no problem saying screw fightsaga.com and/or screw the urban legend - I must ask, why does boxrec not agree with you?
From Fightsaga
"Although conspiracy theorists assert Angelo Dundee purposely tore a slit into Clay's glove to give his hurt fighter extra time to recuperate from Cooper's monstrous left hook, footage of the bout, according to BoxRec.com, shows the glove had been split in the fourth round. However, Dundee purportedly admitted later that he widened the split on purpose to guarantee a delay.
The split glove would be replaced after Round 4, extending the interval between rounds to 1:40 - forty seconds longer than the typical minute, according to BoxRec."
No,they said to the ref in between rounds that the glove was split and they had to send someone up to the dressing room to get the extra pair
(and how long would that have taken ?) but the funny buisness is when Angelo Dundee and the corner did "the Ass-stretch" to block
everyone (including the television camera,from seeing what they were up to).That and the illegal) smelling salts applied by Chickie Ferrera).
klompton wrote:I can finally put this debate to bed once and for all officially. By pure luck I found an old reel to reel audio recording of the original BBC radio broadcast of Ali-Cooper 1 in its entirety recorded by a fan live back in 1963. I had the thing transferred and picked it up today. Its a very interesting broadcast running from the ring entrance of Ali (who entered the ring wearing a crown) followed by Cooper. The commentary is done by someone I didnt recognize but its different from the TV commentary so its not a simulcast. The commentator hands off the commentary between rounds to another man who I believe he named "Barry" who has a slightly thicker british accent with maybe a northern twinge to it. Anyway, after Ali is knocked down the between rounds color commentator is discussing the knockdown when about 20 seconds into the rest he stops mid sentence and mentions that Ali's left glove is burst. He says it would be a really bad piece of luck for Cooper if Ali got a rest. He then says that yes, it looks like they are going to switch gloves but then stops abruptly and says no, they arent going to switch gloves that they are going to wait and switch gloves after the fifth round. The bell rings immediately and I timed the rest at one minute and two seconds. Case closed. Another one of boxing's beloved myths shattered. Sorry Caractus.
Do us all a favour comrade and post it on youtube then.
APerno wrote:I did not read any of the threads, just went right to the film.
First – I was surprised to see that Cooper was such a tall lanky fighter; he stood eye to eye with Ali
Second – he gave Ali much more trouble than I was always lead to believe; the first three rounds were close, and I would have definitely given Cooper round two.
It looked as though Ali was about to take charge of the fight in round four (Ali round), but Cooper brought round five back to even
On the head butt – in round three it looked like Ali was deliberately trying to pull Cooper’s head into him for a butt; Ali always (illegally) grabbed his opponent’s head, but that particular act looked like he was trying to head butt. In fact I would say that was the dirtiest move I have ever seen Ali attempt.
The round six cut: first off I can see why there is a controversy, it is very difficult to see; Ali does land two right hands (to where the cut eventually opens) just as they move into the corner, but then there seems to be a clash of heads just before Cooper pulls his head back and reaches for his eye.
If I have to conclude, I think it was a head butt that opened the cut, but that it was not intentional.
Because: 1. Cooper does not react to the two right hands much, 2. It’s the moment after the ‘possible butt’ that Cooper reacts not after the after the right hands; if there was a third right hand landed in the corner I couldn’t see it.
The announcer called it a right hand, and he was sitting ringside, but then after the fight ends, he calls it a ‘possible right hand’ with much doubt in his voice, so he was of no use.
Simple answer: If I was the referee, I call it an unintentional head butt and go to the score cards. - But I am not sure they went to the score cards back then - I believe it would have been ruled a NC - it is probably unfair that he ended up with a TKO on his record.
Hey Al Perno,I think you may have actually posted this in the wrong thread.
The one minute and forty seconds listed by Boxrec.
I believe that came from a interview with the referree Tommy Little who had said that is what his stop watch read.
I had linked up to that interview with him a couple of years ago,
but cant find it now.It may have been deleted from the inter-net.
APerno wrote:I did not read any of the threads, just went right to the film.
First – I was surprised to see that Cooper was such a tall lanky fighter; he stood eye to eye with Ali
Second – he gave Ali much more trouble than I was always lead to believe; the first three rounds were close, and I would have definitely given Cooper round two.
It looked as though Ali was about to take charge of the fight in round four (Ali round), but Cooper brought round five back to even
On the head butt – in round three it looked like Ali was deliberately trying to pull Cooper’s head into him for a butt; Ali always (illegally) grabbed his opponent’s head, but that particular act looked like he was trying to head butt. In fact I would say that was the dirtiest move I have ever seen Ali attempt.
The round six cut: first off I can see why there is a controversy, it is very difficult to see; Ali does land two right hands (to where the cut eventually opens) just as they move into the corner, but then there seems to be a clash of heads just before Cooper pulls his head back and reaches for his eye.
If I have to conclude, I think it was a head butt that opened the cut, but that it was not intentional.
Because: 1. Cooper does not react to the two right hands much, 2. It’s the moment after the ‘possible butt’ that Cooper reacts not after the after the right hands; if there was a third right hand landed in the corner I couldn’t see it.
The announcer called it a right hand, and he was sitting ringside, but then after the fight ends, he calls it a ‘possible right hand’ with much doubt in his voice, so he was of no use.
Simple answer: If I was the referee, I call it an unintentional head butt and go to the score cards. - But I am not sure they went to the score cards back then - I believe it would have been ruled a NC - it is probably unfair that he ended up with a TKO on his record.
Hey Al Perno,I think you may have actually posted this in the wrong thread.
Yea went blond - sorry - they should have named the thread Clay/Cooper I - but still my bad
APerno wrote:No doubt you guys have beaten this issue to death (18 pages worth) but that doesn't mean I can't be a CS and screw with it all over again - so I have two questions: Did they change the split glove between rounds, and if so how did they do it in one minute and five seconds - or the one minute, 40 seconds identified below? - both amounts of time seem way too short to unlace and change a glove considering the video you showed me shows Clay being tended to to for at least 30 of those seconds (that whole up and down, 'where am I' moment clay was having) - that was only one question, the second question: Why does the quote below, from Fightsaga.com use Boxrec as its source; where on Boxrec is this quote taken from and how come Boxrec does not agree with you guys? Does Boxrec claim 1:40 or is this quote fallacious?
Sorry - I can understand your frustration with having to argue the same point over and over again, I apologize for that - but it is all new info to me and while I have no problem saying screw fightsaga.com and/or screw the urban legend - I must ask, why does boxrec not agree with you?
From Fightsaga
"Although conspiracy theorists assert Angelo Dundee purposely tore a slit into Clay's glove to give his hurt fighter extra time to recuperate from Cooper's monstrous left hook, footage of the bout, according to BoxRec.com, shows the glove had been split in the fourth round. However, Dundee purportedly admitted later that he widened the split on purpose to guarantee a delay.
The split glove would be replaced after Round 4, extending the interval between rounds to 1:40 - forty seconds longer than the typical minute, according to BoxRec."
No glove not replaced. I have no idea why boxrec has that, maybe no one has asked for it to be updated with all the evidence that contradicts it. For years that story done the rounds, so much people started to believe it.
Yes I did not see any replacement in the video you posted me either
APerno wrote:No doubt you guys have beaten this issue to death (18 pages worth) but that doesn't mean I can't be a CS and screw with it all over again - so I have two questions: Did they change the split glove between rounds, and if so how did they do it in one minute and five seconds - or the one minute, 40 seconds identified below? - both amounts of time seem way too short to unlace and change a glove considering the video you showed me shows Clay being tended to to for at least 30 of those seconds (that whole up and down, 'where am I' moment clay was having) - that was only one question, the second question: Why does the quote below, from Fightsaga.com use Boxrec as its source; where on Boxrec is this quote taken from and how come Boxrec does not agree with you guys? Does Boxrec claim 1:40 or is this quote fallacious?
Sorry - I can understand your frustration with having to argue the same point over and over again, I apologize for that - but it is all new info to me and while I have no problem saying screw fightsaga.com and/or screw the urban legend - I must ask, why does boxrec not agree with you?
From Fightsaga
"Although conspiracy theorists assert Angelo Dundee purposely tore a slit into Clay's glove to give his hurt fighter extra time to recuperate from Cooper's monstrous left hook, footage of the bout, according to BoxRec.com, shows the glove had been split in the fourth round. However, Dundee purportedly admitted later that he widened the split on purpose to guarantee a delay.
The split glove would be replaced after Round 4, extending the interval between rounds to 1:40 - forty seconds longer than the typical minute, according to BoxRec."
No,they said to the ref in between rounds that the glove was split and they had to send someone up to the dressing room to get the extra pair
(and how long would that have taken ?) but the funny buisness is when Angelo Dundee and the corner did "the Ass-stretch" to block
everyone (including the television camera,from seeing what they were up to).That and the illegal) smelling salts applied by Chickie Ferrera).
saw the smelling salts - no question there - you know Cooper does nothing but say nice things about Ali (I have been reading them these past two days) -as I said in the other thread to you, he should have Dempsey-Sharkey him he was too much a gentlemen
Caractacus wrote:Reg Gutteridge "The voice of boxing " had published his autobiography in 1998 entitled Uppercuts and Dazes.
I would be surprised if he did not write about the Clay vrs Cooper fight in his book being that he was at ringside and did the live commentery for it.
Has anyone here read the book ?
In his book Reg refers to the then recent archive recovery of the BBC commentary and says the round overran by six seconds.
Do you mean the BBC radio broadcast of the bout ?
Because it would appear that ITV had kinescoped it for delay for the "World of Sport" programme.
BTW could you give us a direct quote from the book?
The quote in whole from Gutteridge's 1998 biog:
"Henry still insists the delay was minutes. It was over time but a recent archive recovery of the BBC radio commentary timed only six seconds over the minute from the bell ending the fourth and starting the fifth round which lasted only 90 seconds when Clay's cutting blows ended Cooper's chances."
klompton wrote:I can finally put this debate to bed once and for all officially. By pure luck I found an old reel to reel audio recording of the original BBC radio broadcast of Ali-Cooper 1 in its entirety recorded by a fan live back in 1963. I had the thing transferred and picked it up today. Its a very interesting broadcast running from the ring entrance of Ali (who entered the ring wearing a crown) followed by Cooper. The commentary is done by someone I didnt recognize but its different from the TV commentary so its not a simulcast. The commentator hands off the commentary between rounds to another man who I believe he named "Barry" who has a slightly thicker british accent with maybe a northern twinge to it. Anyway, after Ali is knocked down the between rounds color commentator is discussing the knockdown when about 20 seconds into the rest he stops mid sentence and mentions that Ali's left glove is burst. He says it would be a really bad piece of luck for Cooper if Ali got a rest. He then says that yes, it looks like they are going to switch gloves but then stops abruptly and says no, they arent going to switch gloves that they are going to wait and switch gloves after the fifth round. The bell rings immediately and I timed the rest at one minute and two seconds. Case closed. Another one of boxing's beloved myths shattered. Sorry Caractus.
Do us all a favour comrade and post it on youtube then.
I did, as you well know because I also linked it to this thread, you watched it, then ran with your tail between your legs until slinking back now that its buried several pages back. But I guess trolls will be trolls. Its sad you have nothing better to do with your time.
golden oldie wrote:Some of you may find this hard to believe, but there are still people who believe the earth is flat. They are generally referred to as idiots. Why should boxing be exempt from them?
If someone REALLY WANTS to believe the interval between rounds 4 and 5 in the Clay / Cooper fight was longer than the recorded 65 seconds, NO AMOUNT of evidence will convince them otherwise. Just as no amount of scientific evidence will change the opinions of those billions of hypocrites who claim to believe in god, so they can say " sorry " and carry on doing the same crap they did in the first place.
It is a bit like a baby's comfort blanket.
Ha agreed. It does make me laugh that boxing has many incidents of long counts, knockdowns not counted, short rounds, fast counts, poor stoppages, fights not stopped quick enough, terrible scoring etc... yet this one fight still gets scrutinised in minute detail and talked about 50+ years later even when the evidence is as clear as day.
klompton wrote:I can finally put this debate to bed once and for all officially. By pure luck I found an old reel to reel audio recording of the original BBC radio broadcast of Ali-Cooper 1 in its entirety recorded by a fan live back in 1963. I had the thing transferred and picked it up today. Its a very interesting broadcast running from the ring entrance of Ali (who entered the ring wearing a crown) followed by Cooper. The commentary is done by someone I didnt recognize but its different from the TV commentary so its not a simulcast. The commentator hands off the commentary between rounds to another man who I believe he named "Barry" who has a slightly thicker british accent with maybe a northern twinge to it. Anyway, after Ali is knocked down the between rounds color commentator is discussing the knockdown when about 20 seconds into the rest he stops mid sentence and mentions that Ali's left glove is burst. He says it would be a really bad piece of luck for Cooper if Ali got a rest. He then says that yes, it looks like they are going to switch gloves but then stops abruptly and says no, they arent going to switch gloves that they are going to wait and switch gloves after the fifth round. The bell rings immediately and I timed the rest at one minute and two seconds. Case closed. Another one of boxing's beloved myths shattered. Sorry Caractus.
Do us all a favour comrade and post it on youtube then.
I did, as you well know because I also linked it to this thread, you watched it, then ran with your tail between your legs until slinking back now that its buried several pages back. But I guess trolls will be trolls. Its sad you have nothing better to do with your time.
Dude you dont" watch " a Radio broadcast,you listen to it.
and you've never linked anything up from your posts ever that I can remember.
klompton wrote:Jesus effing christ! I post rock solid irrefutable proof there was no lengthy break and you two effing morons still want to argue about it. Go get a room.
You didn't post "Diddley Squat " and you know it !
From what I remember in the interview with Tommy Little (the referee)
when Clay went down,he did his stop watch,but the crown roared so loudly
that he didnt hear the bell to end round four,so his watch kept going.
BTW i dont want to make some of you chaps any angrier with your 'undisputable proof"
( and raise your blood pressure)
but the so called "BBC Radio live commentery" on that clip
sounds like so fake ass to me,
Sounds like some joker recorded that back in the 1970's on the toilet in his bathroom while taking a dump on his'throne" off his value pack 8 cassettes in one package he may have purchased at
K-Mart.
trying to re-create the events of that evening for his own amusement.
Dont you think it sounds kind of phoney Al Perno ?
Sounds like canned crowd noise and when the last time you ever heard an Englishman say "I say".
I think you may have been ripped off klompton with that purchase big time.
No,the events have just faded with time it would seem.
If it is a myth,it would be interesting to know when it began.
Immediatley after the fight ?
years if not decades later ?
Perhaps someone could compile a chronology
of the various amounts of time that have been given
between rounds four and five over the past 50 years.
(and listing the sources)
Did it spike at one point or even decrease ?
why ?
Caractacus wrote:BTW i dont want to make some of you chaps any angrier with your 'undisputable proof"
( and raise your blood pressure)
but the so called "BBC Radio live commentery" on that clip
sounds like so fake ass to me,
Sounds like some joker recorded that back in the 1970's on the toilet in his bathroom while taking a dump on his'throne" off his value pack 8 cassettes in one package he may have purchased at
K-Mart.
trying to re-create the events of that evening for his own amusement.
Dont you think it sounds kind of phoney Al Perno ?
Sounds like canned crowd noise and when the last time you ever heard an Englishman say "I say".
I think you may have been ripped off klompton with that purchase big time.
Barbarian I think you're on your own with this one - luck - I will add this: if there is a culprit who manufactured a story 'about an extended break that never happened' - I say look to Dundee - he told that torn glove story so many times, and each time he comes away the hero who saves Ali/Clay from destruction - Dundee also told a pretty tale about the Liston-Clay I fight and the liniment in the eyes crisis (which I believed for many years until the internet finally let me watch the fight) he claimed that Clay wanted to quit and that he pushed Clay off the stool, and said 'this is the big babe get in there,' and then pulled the stool away so Clay couldn't sit back down - you watch the fight now, Clay stands up on his own, shows no sign of quitting, Dundee never touches Clay let alone pushes him, and a different second removes the stool from the ring long after Clay has walked away from it - yet I swear I must have heard Dundee tell that story five different times at least - if there is a liar in the woodpile I say look to Dundee.
It's like the folks who think we never went to the moon, or that 911 was an inside job engineered by Bush, or Andy Kaufman and Elvis still walk among us.
I'm way to easy to take the bait toward conversing, in the hopes that I can instill sensibility, when I should just understand that some of us are wired that way.
BoxBuzz wrote:It's like the folks who think we never went to the moon, or that 911 was an inside job engineered by Bush, or Andy Kaufman and Elvis still walk among us.
I'm way to easy to take the bait toward conversing, in the hopes that I can instill sensibility, when I should just understand that some of us are wired that way.
I am 61 years old - I am now thinking this thread may out live me. - 19 pages and counting
Stranger yet, had Clay not recovered ( though the smelling salts must have helped ) in time and Enery had gone out in the 5th and finished him, it would have all been for nothing anyway. Jim Wicks was adamant he would not even let Cooper " in the same parish as that monster, ( Liston ) never mind the same ring " which left scant possibilities. Clay wouldn't have got the Liston fight, Wicks wouldn't have allowed it with Cooper, so what happens Liston, Patterson 3, maybe Liston / Jones?[/quote]
It would have been for nothing ?
a victory over "The Greatest"
are you nuts ?
BTW are you trying to infere that Henry Cooper may have been somehow "yeller" ?
IMOP He would have fought Liston if the Heavyweight title was on the line for sure.
luck - I will add this: if there is a culprit who manufactured a story 'about an extended break that never happened' - I say look to Dundee - he told that torn glove story so many times, and each time he comes away the hero who saves Ali/Clay from destruction - Dundee also told a pretty tale about the Liston-Clay I fight and the liniment in the eyes crisis (which I believed for many years until the internet finally let me watch the fight) he claimed that Clay wanted to quit and that he pushed Clay off the stool, and said 'this is the big babe get in there,' and then pulled the stool away so Clay couldn't sit back down - you watch the fight now, Clay stands up on his own, shows no sign of quitting, Dundee never touches Clay let alone pushes him, and a different second removes the stool from the ring long after Clay has walked away from it - yet I swear I must have heard Dundee tell that story five different times at least - if there is a liar in the woodpile I say look to Dundee.