BoxBuzz wrote:So....Calzaghe is considered by some here as "Ottke 2.0"?
Certainly better than Ottke -- but certainly a cherry picker who avoided Froch, Dawson, and Glen Johnson -- he postponed the Glen Johnson fight several times and then killed it, that was right after Johnson knocked Roy Jones cuckoo.. Calzaghe also avoided a more youthful Roy Jones and opted for the washed up version.. He fought a 43-year-old Hopkins to a SD, big deal.. He avoided B-Hop when he was younger.. He flat out ducked a 20-0 Carl Froch in favor of Peter Manfredo---a softie who Sergio Mora earlier pounded twice.. Froch-Calzaghe would have been a smashing fight and it was highly anticipated like Froch-Groves ... but JC wanted easy fights.
Calzaghe's career highlight was a tough fight with Kessler, a very hittable target... Ward shutout Kessler when he had 20 fights - it was not a contest... To date Ward's career highlight is Carl Froch, but he's fighting a genuine threat in Sergei Kovalev in November... Calzaghe never took a risk like that.
Kalan wrote:Calzaghe would have beaten Chickenson... Froch would have beaten Calzaghe like he did George Groves. Groves is another face first guy. Froch wouldn't stop Calzaghe like he did Groves twice---but he would outpoint him.. JC led with his face and was a brawler for the most part.. He could absorb a good punch and he got hit real good -- but he never fought a real good prime boxer.. Calzaghe lacked a good jab and good straight left.. His head was too forward.. His game was to get close and flurry and try to slip all your punches.. He was fast, but fast guys still get hit if they're missing skills.
Calzaghe fought in similar fashion to Nathan Cleverly---who was a quick kid and had the same trainer... Cleverly was an undefeated Light Heavyweight Champion, 26-0, when his brain trust---which included Joe Calzaghe at the time---decided he could beat Sergei Kovalev.. After all, Cleverly was taller than Kovalev and had more experience.. Joe Calzaghe was at ringside yelling instructions to Cleverly but Cleverly was a wide open target getting pounded by everything Kovalev threw.. Even as a 26-0 undefeated World Champion, Cleverly had no stance... no footwork... no jab... no straight right... and no defense... Kolalev had all of those skills and ripped Cleverly to shreds as easy as a walking through the park... Kovalev would destroy Calzaghe and stop him in 6 rounds.
Ward beat Kessler so easily it was ridiculous---when he was a novice with only 20 fights.. Ward never caught a real good punch from Kessler and won every round by a wide margin.. Ward would do something similar to Calzaghe and beat him about 118-110.. Beterbiev would knock Calzaghe out.. Kovalev would knock Calzaghe out.. Don't even ask what would happen if Calzaghe fought a prime MIchael Spinks.
Okay...now you're going to bring up Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones---both whom knocked Calzaghe down.. JC beat them both but that was predictable.. Neither Jones or Hopkins were good attackers, flawless boxers, or big punchers at 175.. I feel they both would have beaten Calzaghe when they were at their best, in close fights.. But Calzaghe waited until they were old to fight them.. Preserving his "O" was his whole mission..
Calzaghe was a great fighter. Don't go saying I said he was trash and a bum, because that's what you guys do anytime I criticize somebody's boxing ability.. You claim I said Ali was a bum.. Calzaghe was a great brawler with loads of talent. He couldn't box well---not up to the standards of a Kovalev or Ward
Finally a good post by you WHat people don't realise is that imo Calzaghe ran into retirement after the Hopkins fight even tho a very lucrative 50,000 sellout rematch in Cardiff awaited him.........I believe that Hopkins won that fight but irrespective there is no doubt that Hopkins easily shut him out over the first 5....how?........he saw calzaghes kryptonite.....everytime joe comes face forward to flurry he requires both hands to build the momentum...so just tie up one arm and his flurries become rabbit punches and useless.......froch a very underrated boxer would have figured this out.......apart from the Hopkins win which was really a loss imo...who did joe beat?......a shot jones and a totally overrated lacey and Kessler......as froch and ward showed ....Kessler was just one of 6-7 very useful guys at SM in the supersix mix.........Calzaghe never fought glencoffe Johnson who would have tested him.......Dirrell at that time,Jermain Taylor, Abraham much less ward and froch were tougher than a shot eubanks, a robin reid or Byron Mitchell.
Calzaghe UD Froch - Froch himself admitted that he would have to stop Calzaghe to win. Calzaghe would have had a big speed advantage which would have been too much for Froch imo, allowing him to outwork him and win on points. Calzaghe 117-111 Froch.
Calzaghe UD Beterbiev - Beterbiev has ran through the competition in his early pro career and may well be something special but as of now he hasn't proven that he is anywhere near Joe's level. Calzaghe 120-108 Beterbiev.
Calzaghe UD Stevenson - Stevenson has a brilliant left hand but is too over reliant on it to catch someone like Calzaghe enough to beat him. I think Joe would use his speed and work rate to flurry whilst Adonis looks for the one punch KO. Calzaghe 116-111. 9 rounds to 3 with Calzaghe being dropped once early. Fight looks competitive until the mid rounds until Joe runs away with it and cruises to a win.
Calzaghe SD Kovalev - As for Kovalev, my gut feeling is that Joe wins a very close split decision, but it really could go either way. Complete guess in all honesty.
Ward MD Calzaghe - My gut says Ward wins in a competitive fight similar to Calzaghe/Hopkins but with more action. Ward making Calzaghe miss a lot like Hopkins did but would counter more than B-Hop to win the rounds.
Calzaghe UD Froch - Froch himself admitted that he would have to stop Calzaghe to win. Calzaghe would have had a big speed advantage which would have been too much for Froch imo, allowing him to outwork him and win on points. Calzaghe 117-111 Froch.
Calzaghe UD Beterbiev - Beterbiev has ran through the competition in his early pro career and may well be something special but as of now he hasn't proven that he is anywhere near Joe's level. Calzaghe 120-108 Beterbiev.
Calzaghe UD Stevenson - Stevenson has a brilliant left hand but is too over reliant on it to catch someone like Calzaghe enough to beat him. I think Joe would use his speed and work rate to flurry whilst Adonis looks for the one punch KO. Calzaghe 116-111. 9 rounds to 3 with Calzaghe being dropped once early. Fight looks competitive until the mid rounds until Joe runs away with it and cruises to a win.
Calzaghe SD Kovalev - As for Kovalev, my gut feeling is that Joe wins a very close split decision, but it really could go either way. Complete guess in all honesty.
Ward MD Calzaghe - My gut says Ward wins in a competitive fight similar to Calzaghe/Hopkins but with more action. Ward making Calzaghe miss a lot like Hopkins did but would counter more than B-Hop to win the rounds.
Reasoned and sensible
Ward is the guy Joe would have struggled to have beaten and you can make a case for him just buzzing around Kovalev and pinching it.
Ward was just so elusive, fast and very strong and he would have potentially hit Joe with the more meaningful shots...although the better work-rate is coming from Joe.
So disappointing that so much of Ward's prime years have been spent in a lawyer's office rather than the ring.
Kalan wrote:
Meanwhile, Carl Froch was 20--0 at that point. He was the Commonwealth and British Empire Super Middleweight Champion for several years at the time.. He he had beaten Brian Magee... Froch's resume was much better than Peter Manfredo's.. The only reason Calzaghe fought challengers like Tocker Pudwill, Will McIntyre, Branko Sobot, and Peter Manfredo -- rather than a much younger Roy Jones earlier---and the up-and-coming Carl Froch later -- was to pad his record on easy victims and remain undefeated.. Carl Froch fought George Groves when he was 19-0.. Those were 2 of the biggest fights in British Boxing History... Froch vs Calzaghe would have been even bigger.
I know it's hard for you to understand time, but try and grasp that at the time you say Calzaghe was "ducking" Froch, Froch was not the Froch, in terms of profile, who fought Groves. And please don't quote his boxing record at me. The fact is when Calzaghe was fighting, the average man on a British street outside Nottingham would have said "Carl who?". By the time of the Groves fight, even my mother knew who Carl Froch was.
Carl Froch was 20-0 and British Empire Super Middleweight Champion for several years by the time Calzaghe fought push over Peter Manfredo.
Froch was better known to British fans than George Groves was when Froch fought him... The Calzaghe-Froch fight was massive... It would have broken all records for putting British butts in Stadium seats -- just like Froch-Groves did, but more so.. That was a risky fight for Froch.. Calzaghe didn't take risks.
Kalan wrote:Calzaghe would have beaten Chickenson... Froch would have beaten Calzaghe like he did George Groves. Groves is another face first guy. Froch wouldn't stop Calzaghe like he did Groves twice---but he would outpoint him.. JC led with his face and was a brawler for the most part.. He could absorb a good punch and he got hit real good -- but he never fought a real good prime boxer.. Calzaghe lacked a good jab and good straight left.. His head was too forward.. His game was to get close and flurry and try to slip all your punches.. He was fast, but fast guys still get hit if they're missing skills.
Calzaghe fought in similar fashion to Nathan Cleverly---who was a quick kid and had the same trainer... Cleverly was an undefeated Light Heavyweight Champion, 26-0, when his brain trust---which included Joe Calzaghe at the time---decided he could beat Sergei Kovalev.. After all, Cleverly was taller than Kovalev and had more experience.. Joe Calzaghe was at ringside yelling instructions to Cleverly but Cleverly was a wide open target getting pounded by everything Kovalev threw.. Even as a 26-0 undefeated World Champion, Cleverly had no stance... no footwork... no jab... no straight right... and no defense... Kolalev had all of those skills and ripped Cleverly to shreds as easy as a walking through the park... Kovalev would destroy Calzaghe and stop him in 6 rounds.
Ward beat Kessler so easily it was ridiculous---when he was a novice with only 20 fights.. Ward never caught a real good punch from Kessler and won every round by a wide margin.. Ward would do something similar to Calzaghe and beat him about 118-110.. Beterbiev would knock Calzaghe out.. Kovalev would knock Calzaghe out.. Don't even ask what would happen if Calzaghe fought a prime MIchael Spinks.
Okay...now you're going to bring up Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones---both whom knocked Calzaghe down.. JC beat them both but that was predictable.. Neither Jones or Hopkins were good attackers, flawless boxers, or big punchers at 175.. I feel they both would have beaten Calzaghe when they were at their best, in close fights.. But Calzaghe waited until they were old to fight them.. Preserving his "O" was his whole mission..
Calzaghe was a great fighter. Don't go saying I said he was trash and a bum, because that's what you guys do anytime I criticize somebody's boxing ability.. You claim I said Ali was a bum.. Calzaghe was a great brawler with loads of talent. He couldn't box well---not up to the standards of a Kovalev or Ward
Wow!
You've made some bold statements here.
Froch would have beaten Joe on points? Not a chance.
Nathan is a good fighter but he's not on Joe's level.
You think Artur Beterbiev would have knocked out Joe? Based on what?
I don't even like Joe. But he was very awkward and he would have caused those guys huge problems with his style and his attributes.
cfang wrote:JC was not a brawler he was a boxer who could tough it out when needed. He beat kessler by changing his tactics and boxing him when he realised he couldn't go toe to toe. He beat lacy senseless by boxing him. He didn't fight in similar fashion to nathan cleverly either.
No way in a million years does froch beat calzaghe on pts even froch doesn't think that - he himself said he'd need to ko jc to win. I just don't know what you're watching
I don't know what the Hell you're watching, because the opposite of what you're saying happened... Calzaghe started out boxing Kessler and took a number of hard rights in the early rounds.. He started closing, mixing, brawling, and leading with his head more and more as the fight went on -- and he came on as he did.. He stood toe-to-toe with Lacy and brawled. He stayed right in front of him.. Lacy also lost to washed up Jemain Taylor just as lopsidedly as he lost to Calzaghe -- so it's not that big a win.
Froch is the guy who pushed for the Calzaghe fight and consistently called him out... Forch consistently said he would beat Calzaghe so you're a liar... Calzaghe is the guy who consistently DUCKED Froch to fight guys like Peter Manfredo when Froch was 20-0.. Froch was the British Empire and Commonwealth Super Middleweight Champion and wanted Calzaghe for a much bigger and richer fight... Froch-Calzaghe would have been bigger than the Froch-Groves that packed 87,000 into Wembley Stadium... that a tremendous domestic matchup too... NOBODY wanted to see Calzaghe-Manfredo but Calzaghe... Manfredo was as weak as a score of Calzaghe's unknown and inept challengers that he kept fighting while ignoring Roy Jones.
I agree that the Manfredo fight was a joke. It was actually an insult to Joe. Although amazingly, Joe didn't see it that way. But Frank deemed it necessary because it garnered attention with the U.S. fans.
A fight with Froch would not have garnered the same interest as Froch-Groves. That rematch was only huge to the controversial stoppage and excitement and outrage of the first fight.
Everyone knows that Joe cashed out against Roy,when he could have pushed for Pavlik instead.
Kalan wrote:Okay...now you're going to bring up Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones---both whom knocked Calzaghe down.. JC beat them both but that was predictable.. Neither Jones or Hopkins were good attackers, flawless boxers, or big punchers at 175.. I feel they both would have beaten Calzaghe when they were at their best, in close fights.. But Calzaghe waited until they were old to fight them.. Preserving his "O" was his whole mission..
Calzaghe only fought RJJ and B-Hop the same reason as Lewis fought Tyson in 2002. Just so he could have their names on his resume right at the end of his career, just so it looks that much better. Imagine he had retired after Kessler?
No. He did it for money. Fighting Jones and Hopkins paid more than anyone else out there would have. Froch, at the time, wouldn't have brought money. He certainly wouldn't have brought money
proportional to the risk he posed. When Calzaghe went in against Hopkins and Jones Froch hadn't even fought Pascal yet; he wasn't a name.
Calzaghe didn't give a damn for his resume, he cared a lot more about having a big house.
I don't know what Joe made against Roy, but I know they split everything 50/50 and they had poor ratings.
Kalan wrote:Carl Froch was 20-0 and British Empire Super Middleweight Champion for several years by the time Calzaghe fought push over Peter Manfredo.
Froch was better known to British fans than George Groves was when Froch fought him... The Calzaghe-Froch fight was massive... It would have broken all records for putting British butts in Stadium seats -- just like Froch-Groves did, but more so.. That was a risky fight for Froch.. Calzaghe didn't take risks.
It wouldn't have been the huge fight you think it would have been.
Froch-Groves 1 wasn't huge. It was in Manchester.
It wouldn't have broken any records.
Carl was just starting to gather momentum.
The only way it could have filled a huge stadium, would have been if it had been in Cardiff, billed as Joe's swansong.
Kalan wrote:
Meanwhile, Carl Froch was 20--0 at that point. He was the Commonwealth and British Empire Super Middleweight Champion for several years at the time.. He he had beaten Brian Magee... Froch's resume was much better than Peter Manfredo's.. The only reason Calzaghe fought challengers like Tocker Pudwill, Will McIntyre, Branko Sobot, and Peter Manfredo -- rather than a much younger Roy Jones earlier---and the up-and-coming Carl Froch later -- was to pad his record on easy victims and remain undefeated.. Carl Froch fought George Groves when he was 19-0.. Those were 2 of the biggest fights in British Boxing History... Froch vs Calzaghe would have been even bigger.
I know it's hard for you to understand time, but try and grasp that at the time you say Calzaghe was "ducking" Froch, Froch was not the Froch, in terms of profile, who fought Groves. And please don't quote his boxing record at me. The fact is when Calzaghe was fighting, the average man on a British street outside Nottingham would have said "Carl who?". By the time of the Groves fight, even my mother knew who Carl Froch was.
Good post.
If Joe had come out of retirement within the last few years it could have been very big. But like you say, it wouldn't have been in 2008.
I can't really criticise him for not fighting Carl. But he definitely deserves criticism for taking Roy over Pavlik.
Kalan wrote:Carl Froch was 20-0 and British Empire Super Middleweight Champion for several years by the time Calzaghe fought push over Peter Manfredo.
Froch was better known to British fans than George Groves was when Froch fought him... The Calzaghe-Froch fight was massive... It would have broken all records for putting British butts in Stadium seats -- just like Froch-Groves did, but more so.. That was a risky fight for Froch.. Calzaghe didn't take risks.
I said "Don't quote his boxing record at me". For the last time, his boxing record has nothing to do with his public profile.
No, Froch was not better known to British fans then than Groves was when Froch fought him. He was maybe around the same level. Froch's profile at the time of the Groves fight, however, far eclipsed Calzaghe's - at least in part because Carl Froch is English and Calzaghe is Welsh. There's 60 million English and 3 million Welsh. This is probably something else you don't fully understand.
Kalan wrote:Carl Froch was 20-0 and British Empire Super Middleweight Champion for several years by the time Calzaghe fought push over Peter Manfredo.
Froch was better known to British fans than George Groves was when Froch fought him... The Calzaghe-Froch fight was massive... It would have broken all records for putting British butts in Stadium seats -- just like Froch-Groves did, but more so.. That was a risky fight for Froch.. Calzaghe didn't take risks.
Froch was not better known than George Groves at those stages at all. Froch was virtually unknown outside of boxing circles when Calzaghe fought Manfredo, Kessler, Hopkins and his final fight Roy Jones. Don't make things up.
Calzaghe would out speed, out volume and out work ward.
It is at least feasible and well done for saying something that most of us don't freely discuss; perhaps I am guilty of taking the safer/far more conventional option?
But what makes me still think differently about this fight at SMW or LHW is that Ward at his best slipped and blocked so much... so even Joe's incredible abilty to throw heaps of punches all night long and sharpness might not have got the result.
Ward is swerving plenty or taking them on the arms.
And Ward always counters so well; crisp and clean scoring shots that the judges can see.
I am also mindful that Calzaghe himself has marked out Ward as his 'problem guy' and that might be rather telling.
Calzaghe would out speed, out volume and out work ward.
It is at least feasible and well done for saying something that most of us don't freely discuss; perhaps I am guilty of taking the safer/far more conventional option?
But what makes me still think differently about this fight at SMW or LHW is that Ward at his best slipped and blocked so much... so even Joe's incredible abilty to throw heaps of punches all night long and sharpness might not have got the result.
Ward is swerving plenty or taking them on the arms.
And Ward always counters so well; crisp and clean scoring shots that the judges can see.
I am also mindful that Calzaghe himself has marked out Ward as his 'problem guy' and that might be rather telling.
I didn't know he had said that, thats interesting but it makes sense. If there was a bet to be put on I wouldn't take a risk with either. Calzaghe had great timing, rhythm, speed, volume, ring IQ and a chin. Ward could upset his rhythm and with a precise shot and that may happen many times during the fight but thats when Joe would become a awkward inside grueling fighter. The difference between Ward and Joe IMO, is Joe could fire multiple shots from the inside, not hard shots but he could get his hands on you. Ward is better defensively on the inside and has more precise, one punch shots (again IMO). To me, on the inside in boxing, and I mean when both fighters are standing toe to toe or closer, its generally a 50/50 game. If Joe is throwing more and has that gas tank to continue throwing at volume more are going to land. But given wards defensive skills, maybe its 60/40 up that close, if you know what i'm saying. But still......this is a hard fight to speculate. I don't think Ward has the power Hopkins had either.
"You think Artur Beterbiev would have knocked out Joe? Based on what?"
Based on the fact that he's much bigger and stronger -- a much better boxer and 10 X the puncher... Beterbiev would ice the walk-in Calzaghe and leave him flat out cold on the canvas... Mitchell, Jones, and Hopkins all floored the face first Calzaghe... Beterbiev would nail him and put his lights out.
Kalan wrote:"You think Artur Beterbiev would have knocked out Joe? Based on what?"
Based on the fact that he's much bigger and stronger -- a much better boxer and 10 X the puncher... Beterbiev would ice the walk-in Calzaghe and leave him flat out cold on the canvas... Mitchell, Jones, and Hopkins all floored the face first Calzaghe... Beterbiev would nail him and put his lights out.
I like Artur a lot. But he's only had about 10 fights. He's still only a prospect at this stage. It's far too early to say with any conviction that he'd definitely have beaten Joe. Joe had a lot of great attributes. Sure, Joe could be tagged. But so can Artur. Joe's southpaw speed and skills would have caused him a lot of problems.
I don't see it... Calzaghe came in with his head and took hard shots... No possible way he survives Beterbiev if Kessler could hit him.
10 fights is a lot when you've had over 300 amateur fights... Usyk is undefeated World Cruiserweight Champion and he has 10 fights... Beterbiev is a world class fighter right now, but just can't get the fights... No one will fight him because he's a stone killer.
Kalan wrote:I don't see it... Calzaghe came in with his head and took hard shots... No possible way he survives Beterbiev if Kessler could hit him.
10 fights is a lot when you've had over 300 amateur fights... Usyk is undefeated World Cruiserweight Champion and he has 10 fights... Beterbiev is a world class fighter right now, but just can't get the fights... No one will fight him because he's a stone killer.
You may well have been right, and I can't wait to see how his career unfolds. But again, it's too early for me. If Joe had gotten careless like he did against Mitchell etc, it would have been lights out for sure. He'd have needed to have kept his composure and boxed to a careful game plan. I could envisage a points win for him because of his great hand speed and the fact that Artur's easy enough to hit. But again, you may have been right.
When's he fighting next?
Last edited by loudon on 28 Sep 2016, 17:33, edited 1 time in total.
Kalan wrote:I don't see it... Calzaghe came in with his head and took hard shots... No possible way he survives Beterbiev if Kessler could hit him.
10 fights is a lot when you've had over 300 amateur fights... Usyk is undefeated World Cruiserweight Champion and he has 10 fights... Beterbiev is a world class fighter right now, but just can't get the fights... No one will fight him because he's a stone killer.
You may well have been right, and I can't wait to see how his career unfolds. But again, it's too early for me. If Joe had gotten careless like he did against Mitchell etc, it would have been lights out for sure. He'd have needed to have kept his composure and boxed to a careful game plan. I could envisage a points win for him because of his great hand speed and the fact that Artur's easier enough to hit. But again, you may have been right.
When's he fighting next?
HAH!!! That's a very good question... Beterbiev has had 2 fights last year and only 1 fight so far this year... It seems like he's been kicked down stairs since he's been with Al Haymon... Artur could fight every week with the amount of punishment he's taken in his career... Joe Louis had been a professional for 14 months when he met Max Baer in his 22nd pro fight.. He only had like 50 amateur fights.. Mike Tyson turned pro in March of 1985 and fought for the World Title in November of the following year -- in his 28th fight... Ideally, that's what you do with a great puncher who obliterates everyone he faces... You keep him very active to keep him sharp -- because he might not get too many rounds when he does fight.. You can't make history if you can't get any fights.
Beterbiev is not easy to hit.. He's very difficult to hit solidly in fact.. Calzaghe was not particularly easy to hit, but decent swingers could get shots on him.
HAH!!! That's a very good question... Beterbiev has had 2 fights last year and only 1 fight so far this year... It seems like he's been kicked down stairs since he's been with Al Haymon... Artur could fight every week with the amount of punishment he's taken in his career... Joe Louis had been a professional for 14 months when he met Max Baer in his 22nd pro fight.. He only had like 50 amateur fights.. Mike Tyson turned pro in March of 1985 and fought for the World Title in November of the following year -- in his 28th fight... Ideally, that's what you do with a great puncher who obliterates everyone he faces... You keep him very active to keep him sharp -- because he might not get too many rounds when he does fight.. You can't make history if you can't get any fights.
Beterbiev is not easy to hit.. He's very difficult to hit solidly in fact.. Calzaghe was not particularly easy to hit, but decent swingers could get shots on him.
I've just done a quick search online, apparently he'll be fighting at some point next month. I know he's only just come backing from an injury.
He's an exciting talent. A lot of people are wishing for a future fight with Kovalev. There's some great EE fighters. But in my opinion, they have too many amateur fights. Artur was 28 when he turned pro. I've only seen him fight 3/4 times, but he left himself open a few times and he was dropped in his fight against Page. That's what's stuck in my mind. But again, his power may have been too much for Joe.
WHat people don't realise is that imo Calzaghe ran into retirement after the Hopkins fight even tho a very lucrative 50,000 sellout rematch in Cardiff awaited him.........I believe that Hopkins won that fight but irrespective there is no doubt that Hopkins easily shut him out over the first 5....how?........he saw calzaghes kryptonite.....everytime joe comes face forward to flurry he requires both hands to build the momentum...so just tie up one arm and his flurries become rabbit punches and useless.......froch a very underrated boxer would have figured this out.......apart from the Hopkins win which was really a loss imo...who did joe beat?......a shot jones and a totally overrated lacey and Kessler......as froch and ward showed ....Kessler was just one of 6-7 very useful guys at SM in the supersix mix.........Calzaghe never fought glencoffe Johnson who would have tested him.......Dirrell at that time,Jermain Taylor, Abraham much less ward and froch were tougher than a shot eubanks, a robin reid or Byron Mitchell.