EDWARD HEARN

[crusader]

So what if he was breathing hard? That alone doesn't really show that stamina is a major problem when he's still fighting fine and not showing serious indications that he's slowing and becoming significantly more vulnerable.

You use the Brook fight to support your argument, but GGG was just getting stronger.

[bbjc]

I don't see anything wrong with Triple G's stamina myself. Not yet anyway. He fights in such a high octane way. His opponents are going to need serious stamina because he is on them every second of every round and they can't afford to let him tee off.

The problem with golvokin is hes all in most of the time. Except for the brief breathers he takes. Hes getting older. Its not the his stamina is bad its that he excerts himself too much and is a sitting duck when the pace slows. His style of fightings suits a younger man. Eubanks will beat him a year from now

Other side to that is that Golovkin has kept himself healthy, he isn't cutting any real weight to be MW, he doesn't get bashed up, even against Murray he didn't take lots of big shots, he has had some breaks in his fighting schedule in the past couple of years and in terms of professional time he's actually "younger" than Brook. He'd have to age very suddenly for Eubank Jr to take him in the next 12 months. Plus CEJ would have to actually get around to signing a contract rather than (after the event) talking so much about a fight he effectively turned down.

Also, as someone else has pointed out and as guys like Macklin were pointing out ages ago, it is one thing to theorise that if you match Golovkin's pace and up it you'll beat him. It is entirely another to be able to do that when the guy is pummelling you for round after round. Most fighters go into a survival mode and those that don't get beaten up. Murray was able to bring serious strength and durability and underrated boxing skills and still the best he can do was to make to round 11. To beat Golovkin you'll need more than just high work rate and speed, you need a solid enough punch to stop him walking through it, a solid enough chin to take his best shots (they will land), a strong body because that takes a beating as well, a seriously high stamina level and the guts to effectively try to ignore his punches at points in the fight. Can't see a single fighter out there with all of those. He has weaknesses but not enough of them yet for anyone to be even a 50-50 against him in my book.

Hatton against tyszu is a good example of how to do it. Push him back. But theres different ways to do it. Tbf macklin was out his depth. Brooks way would have got the job done...if he was a career middleweight. Golvokin missing a lot of them shots using up a lot of energy. In his defence ingle trained fighters are rarely easy to hit. But brook pushed him back at times. If he was a naturally bigger man it would have been the perfect style to beat him. But convinced eubank has the style also. I actually think it would be easier than people think. Granted he d have to come through a shellacking. Like anyone would against him...but he,ll push him back at the right time plus i think hes tough enough to do it. I know its not popular to like eubanks at the minute. The truth is he frustrates me watching him most of the time. But he has the tools to beat golvokin.

Regarding golvokins weight etc. Its a funny one because hes not thought of as a big middleweight. But he doesnt look great on them scales. Thats fine in your twenties but at 34 eventually it will take its toll when your style relies on your gas tank quite so much. Just looking at it from a common sense point of view...has there been anyone at 34 fighting at that pace with that style thats been just as effective in later years. I cant think of many.

The middleweight divisions poor atm. Hes beat some half decent names. Not been able to stand up to him. But lets not kid on hes been in with anyone elite thats not had all the chips against him. Elite fighters will take his power. Canelo will be a great fight. The only reason i d back golvokin is because of canelos biggest weakness stamina. He wont be able to capitilise on it.

[bbjc]

So what if he was breathing hard? That alone doesn't really show that stamina is a major problem when he's still fighting fine and not showing serious indications that he's slowing and becoming significantly more vulnerable.

You use the Brook fight to support your argument, but GGG was just getting stronger.

Again i m not saying he has poor stamina. I m saying his tank wont stand up to fighting at the pace he wants to or needs to even. Regarding him getting stronger...the point i was trying to make earlier. He was putting it all in. Taking the other man out before the tank goes. That tank would have went if brook could have kept his 2nd and 3rd round up and i dont think it would have took 12 rounds for it to go. I m saying another few rounds. Again what i was saying earlier. Golvokin wont struggle it out over 12 when he starts not liking the pace he ll fall apart quickly. Going back to the thing i said about the he looks invincible. He looks invincible. Then starting to look like hes not enjoying it. Then will fall apart. Hes putting too much into his offence. He loses too much of his assets without that offence tho. Hes stuck between a rock and a hard place with his style. Because its a style thats suited for a younger man.

Hes only really faced b level fighters tbh. He is a great fighter theres no arguments about that from me. But when or if the wrong style or an elite level fighter comes up you ll see how invinsuble he is then

[crusader]

Okay, but you seem to be going largely by guesswork, and I see little evidence supporting your position. Fatigue has never been a serious issue; he's had people push him about as hard or harder than Brook but never seriously tired, and he's fought until the later rounds while throwing plenty of punches--against opponents who threw more than Brook--without notably fading.

I find it odd that you think him coming on strong against Brook supports your stance.

[ElJefe]

The problem with golvokin is hes all in most of the time. Except for the brief breathers he takes. Hes getting older. Its not the his stamina is bad its that he excerts himself too much and is a sitting duck when the pace slows. His style of fightings suits a younger man. Eubanks will beat him a year from now

Other side to that is that Golovkin has kept himself healthy, he isn't cutting any real weight to be MW, he doesn't get bashed up, even against Murray he didn't take lots of big shots, he has had some breaks in his fighting schedule in the past couple of years and in terms of professional time he's actually "younger" than Brook. He'd have to age very suddenly for Eubank Jr to take him in the next 12 months. Plus CEJ would have to actually get around to signing a contract rather than (after the event) talking so much about a fight he effectively turned down.

Also, as someone else has pointed out and as guys like Macklin were pointing out ages ago, it is one thing to theorise that if you match Golovkin's pace and up it you'll beat him. It is entirely another to be able to do that when the guy is pummelling you for round after round. Most fighters go into a survival mode and those that don't get beaten up. Murray was able to bring serious strength and durability and underrated boxing skills and still the best he can do was to make to round 11. To beat Golovkin you'll need more than just high work rate and speed, you need a solid enough punch to stop him walking through it, a solid enough chin to take his best shots (they will land), a strong body because that takes a beating as well, a seriously high stamina level and the guts to effectively try to ignore his punches at points in the fight. Can't see a single fighter out there with all of those. He has weaknesses but not enough of them yet for anyone to be even a 50-50 against him in my book.

Hatton against tyszu is a good example of how to do it. Push him back. But theres different ways to do it. Tbf macklin was out his depth. Brooks way would have got the job done...if he was a career middleweight. Golvokin missing a lot of them shots using up a lot of energy. In his defence ingle trained fighters are rarely easy to hit. But brook pushed him back at times. If he was a naturally bigger man it would have been the perfect style to beat him. But convinced eubank has the style also. I actually think it would be easier than people think. Granted he d have to come through a shellacking. Like anyone would against him...but he,ll push him back at the right time plus i think hes tough enough to do it. I know its not popular to like eubanks at the minute. The truth is he frustrates me watching him most of the time. But he has the tools to beat golvokin.

Regarding golvokins weight etc. Its a funny one because hes not thought of as a big middleweight. But he doesnt look great on them scales. Thats fine in your twenties but at 34 eventually it will take its toll when your style relies on your gas tank quite so much. Just looking at it from a common sense point of view...has there been anyone at 34 fighting at that pace with that style thats been just as effective in later years. I cant think of many.

The middleweight divisions poor atm. Hes beat some half decent names. Not been able to stand up to him. But lets not kid on hes been in with anyone elite thats not had all the chips against him. Elite fighters will take his power. Canelo will be a great fight. The only reason i d back golvokin is because of canelos biggest weakness stamina. He wont be able to capitilise on it.

I'm not sure what Brook did would have worked if he had been a career middleweight. Golovkin has shown that if he respects his opponents power, eg Lemieux, that he can make himself hard to hit. I don't think he respected Brook's power whatsoever. I also don't think he had enough respect for Brook's ability to take a shot, which I will admit surprised me a lot. If Brook was a career middleweight hitting as hard as Lemieux I don't think you'd see Golovkin fighting as wild as he was on Saturday, in my opinion he would be much more calculated and efficient.

[bbjc]

Okay, but you seem to be going largely by guesswork, and I see little evidence supporting your position. Fatigue has never been a serious issue; he's had people push him about as hard or harder than Brook but never seriously tired, and he's fought until the later rounds while throwing plenty of punches--against opponents who threw more than Brook--without notably fading.

I find it odd that you think him coming on strong against Brook supports your stance.

Who,s pushed him to fight at that pace apart from brook for a couple of rounds No one has. Its not really guesswork...he was definetely gulping for breath at the weekend as early as the second round. Even the commentators commented on it. If you dont respect brooks power etc you dont put yourself in that position. Golvokins been breathing heavy a few times. Its a young mans style. Luckily anytime hes been taking into the later rounds the opponents been a spent force. Because hes beat it out of them. But when someone does take it and then pushes him back you ll see how great his stamina tank will deal with his style. I fancy canelo to beat him...he wont do it the way i m saying. But i dont think he ll bully canelo back as much as people think. Hes a strong boy himself. I think he ll stay up to the onslaught and start pushing golvokin back.

[crusader]

I'm confused. If you're picking Canelo, what did you mean by "Canelo will be a great fight. The only reason i d back golvokin is because of canelos biggest weakness stamina. He wont be able to capitilise on it"?

Ouma and Monroe (after the second) were fighting GGG at about the same pace. There have also been many GGG fights in which he boxed longer than 4.5 rounds, threw more than 301 punches, and had more than 261 punches thrown at him, and if fatigue is the issue it's nonsensical to act like these fights are irrelevant just because the stats were spread out slightly more over the rounds.

Overall, he's had to work more in other fights than he had to in the Brook fight, and fact is that GGG has never seriously slowed, whether he was breathing with his mouth open (Vitali did this a lot but had some of the best stamina among the HWs) or not.

[bbjc]

I ll answer the first part about canelo mate. Just watched his fight v khan again after i d posted that first comment.

Got his fight against cotto on the now.

[Tomasino]

Okay, but you seem to be going largely by guesswork, and I see little evidence supporting your position. Fatigue has never been a serious issue; he's had people push him about as hard or harder than Brook but never seriously tired, and he's fought until the later rounds while throwing plenty of punches--against opponents who threw more than Brook--without notably fading.

I find it odd that you think him coming on strong against Brook supports your stance.

Who,s pushed him to fight at that pace apart from brook for a couple of rounds No one has. Its not really guesswork...he was definetely gulping for breath at the weekend as early as the second round. Even the commentators commented on it. If you dont respect brooks power etc you dont put yourself in that position. Golvokins been breathing heavy a few times. Its a young mans style. Luckily anytime hes been taking into the later rounds the opponents been a spent force. Because hes beat it out of them. But when someone does take it and then pushes him back you ll see how great his stamina tank will deal with his style. I fancy canelo to beat him...he wont do it the way i m saying. But i dont think he ll bully canelo back as much as people think. Hes a strong boy himself. I think he ll stay up to the onslaught and start pushing golvokin back.

GGG hammered Brook easily. I can't see how this fight highlights weaknesses. He walked through Kell Brook and would have destroyed him if Ingle hadn't saved him. Brook just isn't good enough to beat GGG no matter what he weighs. Neither is Eubank.

[bbjc]

Watch the fight again. It wasnt a hammering. Brook couldnt stand up to him for long enough...just wasnt his weight class. Golvokin missed with a lot of full bloodied shots. Brook was outboxing him at times. It would have got interesting if brooks came back at him because golvokin was in full terminator mode at the end. Theres no way he was keeping that up. Brook actually had the perfect style to beat him. Make him miss some of them big shots. Then put it on him. In every round up till the fifth. It went the same way. Golvokin would unleash his attack from the start. Have success but was missing a lot of them shots. Then brook started backing him up. And putting it on him. Golvokin was using too much energy to get the job done. In the end he was too strong for brook whos a welterweight. But if someone can take his best...and come back at him admittedly it will take a big strong boy to do it. I think he ll fold. Style uses too much energy for his age.

As much as i dont like froch...he would have beat golvokin. Exactly the type that would take it then come straight back at him.

[ALI]

We can only judge his stamina based on the performances he has had, and to date there is no evidence to suggest there is any lack of fuel in his tank.

You have a theory ref his style/age, which on paper sounds reasonable, but there is no evidence to support what you are saying.

[nitro5912]

I think to beat GGG you need yo have the defence where you are awkward to lay a,glove on( brook was making him miss quite often) have the power to push him back( brook certainly hit him hard and his movement forced GGG back) a body that can take rib busting body shots, a chin that you can bounce a tank off and some serious boxing skills to take control.

Without the defence, you will ship too many shots.
Without the power GGG walks through your shots
Without the body you risk ending up like Macklin or kell round 1(holding on for life)
Without the chin your going down or face being busted up.
Without the above the skills won't come into play.

I can't name a boxer around at the moment who can do that.

[Tomasino]

Watch the fight again. It wasnt a hammering. Brook couldnt stand up to him for long enough...just wasnt his weight class. Golvokin missed with a lot of full bloodied shots. Brook was outboxing him at times. It would have got interesting if brooks came back at him because golvokin was in full terminator mode at the end. Theres no way he was keeping that up. Brook actually had the perfect style to beat him. Make him miss some of them big shots. Then put it on him. In every round up till the fifth. It went the same way. Golvokin would unleash his attack from the start. Have success but was missing a lot of them shots. Then brook started backing him up. And putting it on him. Golvokin was using too much energy to get the job done. In the end he was too strong for brook whos a welterweight. But if someone can take his best...and come back at him admittedly it will take a big strong boy to do it. I think he ll fold. Style uses too much energy for his age.

As much as i dont like froch...he would have beat golvokin. Exactly the type that would take it then come straight back at him.

I don't see it that way at all. Golovkin walked through Brook, the punches just bounced off. Brooks tank would have emptied faster than Golokvins if he had been fighting back effectively. Instead he was backing off, throwing little shots that had no effect. Golovkins punches however broke Kells bones.

[bbjc]

Kells best work was when golvokin backed off. Or after one of golvokins onslaughts even. Then brook started putting it on him. There was no walking through kells shots to get to him. Kell wasnt even trying to keep him off with punches really anyway. It was his footwork he used mostly to keep him off. If your trying to keep someone off you with punches. You plant your feet. You stand your ground. Kell was backing off using his feet. Until golvokins onslaught was finished...thats when he put it on golovkin. I m saying thats how someone will beat golovkin. Brook wasnt big or strong enough but he had the skills to do it.

Difuse his onslaughts...weather its dodging shots. Tying him up. Etc. You will get hit but your gonna need someone thats strong enough to withstand it. Then push him back when he slows up. As i said will take a big strong boy with skill to do it but it can and i think will be done.

[bbjc]

I think to beat GGG you need yo have the defence where you are awkward to lay a,glove on( brook was making him miss quite often) have the power to push him back( brook certainly hit him hard and his movement forced GGG back) a body that can take rib busting body shots, a chin that you can bounce a tank off and some serious boxing skills to take control.

Without the defence, you will ship too many shots.
Without the power GGG walks through your shots
Without the body you risk ending up like Macklin or kell round 1(holding on for life)
Without the chin your going down or face being busted up.
Without the above the skills won't come into play.

I can't name a boxer around at the moment who can do that.

Good assesement. I think golovkins tremendous i agree with what your saying. Apart from one thing the power. It wont be a neccesity to beat golovkin. Obviously it would help. Everything else on your list are necessities tho.

Thats why i fancy eubanks. Eubanks is raw...skill wise hes not near golovkins level. Hes not even on billy joes level in terms of boxing fundamentals. But one thing about eubanks is hes tough and relentless. If he can stand up to golovkins attacks he,ll come right back at him. Golvokin will struggle with that pace. Its not just a theory...hes breathing heavy in there when the pace goes up. His powers breaking opponents down to the point they ve got nothing to give him back. He then presses on. But if someone is able to keep giving it back continually...i say he ll fold. It wont even need to be the most skilled fighter out there. Someone durable. With a great gas tank are the two main necessities to do it.

Someone that can take his attacks and still able to fire back and push him back will do it.

The best scenario i can think of is hatton v tyszu. But i think golvokin unravels quicker than tyszu when it starts to go wrong for him. Cause he puts more into it. Tyszu wasnt quite so in your face as golvokin likes to be.

But hatton stayed on him all nite. Pushed him back. And tyszu ended up quitting on his stool in the end. When golvokin attacks you ve got to difuse it anyway you can dodge tie up grapple. Make him miss. Then get straight on him. Hes not nearly as good on the back foot. Push him back.

Brooks game plan wasnt too bad actually...think he said it was take him for a walk...then fight him at times. Wasnt just we ll box him on the back foot for example. It was more pick your moments to push him back. Brook had his success. If brook could take his attacks better...was bigger man than what he is...he would have won that fight on saturday. Different way to how eubanks could do it tho.

In honesty tho having said all that eubanks is raw. It would be a dangerous fight to put him into. Because he could get seriously hurt more so than say billy joe saunders or brook. But the attributes are there to beat golvokin.

[smiling assassin]

I can't understand how Eubank gets rated so highly based on what he's achieved so far. He boxed 1 world level operator and got beat clearly. BJS is known for not having the best engine and Eubank still didn't come on that strongly. He bashed up and looked good against domestic level fighters, who are a mile of Golovkin. I can't understand how people are picking him to be the man to beat GGG. His style means he's gets brutally battered for 8-10 rounds before that good chin he's got finally decides it can't take no more

[Horse]

I can't understand how Eubank gets rated so highly based on what he's achieved so far. He boxed 1 world level operator and got beat clearly.

Many people scored that fight for Eubank Jr, so it wasn't a clear loss.

[bbjc]

I can't understand how Eubank gets rated so highly based on what he's achieved so far. He boxed 1 world level operator and got beat clearly. BJS is known for not having the best engine and Eubank still didn't come on that strongly. He bashed up and looked good against domestic level fighters, who are a mile of Golovkin. I can't understand how people are picking him to be the man to beat GGG. His style means he's gets brutally battered for 8-10 rounds before that good chin he's got finally decides it can't take no more

Its not that i believe eubankson golovkins skill level etc. Hes still raw. He still needs time to develop against higher class oponents. Billy joes got the better boxing fundamentals for example. Skill wise its a mismatch against golovkin...just think hes got the attributes to beat him. All about styles making fights.

Cause i think billy joe would maybe even beat eubanks again in another close fight. And golovkin will have a pretty straight forward nite with billy joe.

[smiling assassin]

I can't understand how Eubank gets rated so highly based on what he's achieved so far. He boxed 1 world level operator and got beat clearly. BJS is known for not having the best engine and Eubank still didn't come on that strongly. He bashed up and looked good against domestic level fighters, who are a mile of Golovkin. I can't understand how people are picking him to be the man to beat GGG. His style means he's gets brutally battered for 8-10 rounds before that good chin he's got finally decides it can't take no more

Its not that i believe eubankson golovkins skill level etc. Hes still raw. He still needs time to develop against higher class oponents. Billy joes got the better boxing fundamentals for example. Skill wise its a mismatch against golovkin...just think hes got the attributes to beat him. All about styles making fights.

Cause i think billy joe would maybe even beat eubanks again in another close fight. And golovkin will have a pretty straight forward nite with billy joe.

I'm the other way mate I think billy joe gives Golovkin more to think about. It's weird though because although I think Billy joe would trouble him more I still think Eubank would last longer against him than Billy joe. I see Billy joe using movement and looking good then getting caught up with and taken out around 5-6 but I can see Eubank hanging in there till 8-9 but getting battered every minute of every round.

[bbjc]

You could be right mate. Billy joes a good boxer...fundamentally sound. I just think the one to beat golovkin or give him problems wont be the textbook boxer cause hes too good a boxer himself. It ll be an unorthodox boxer who ll drag him into a fight and push him back.

Brook wasnt too far away from having the right game plan and right style to beat him. Essentially he didnt really have a chance cause hes basically a welterweight.

Agree tho. Although i m tipping eubanks to beat him. He is a danger of getting seriously hurt more so than say billy joe.
Billy joes got the fundamentals to fall back on more than eubank does. Its a more open style of fighting. Would be stupid to stick him in now...not ready but the attributes are there that will cause golovkin serious problems.

[Oiky]

Billy joe definitely gives ggg more to think about than Eubank jnr the div