SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Vitali couldn't knock out anyone on these lists.
But so long as he loses on cuts, his squad will claim "he could have".
That's a good point. However, when did VK's skin cut apart from his bout with Lennox Lewis?
Klitschko's eye got cut open about as bad as anybody's eye ever got cut open in Boxing in about the 4th or 5th round...maybe the 3rd I forget which, but it keeps getting worse.
Lots of guys went rounds with Vitali before getting stopped. He didn't knock out too many of the best opponents he faced in under 5 rounds. It took him 8,9 or 10 rounds to stop a lot of the best guys he beat.
But so long as he loses on cuts, his squad will claim "he could have".
That's a good point. However, when did VK's skin cut apart from his bout with Lennox Lewis?
Klitschko's eye got cut open about as bad as anybody's eye ever got cut open in Boxing in about the 4th or 5th round...maybe the 3rd I forget which, but it keeps getting worse.
Lots of guys went rounds with Vitali before getting stopped. He didn't knock out too many of the best opponents he faced in under 5 rounds. It took him 8,9 or 10 rounds to stop a lot of the best guys he beat.
He did eventually pull off the knockout though. Ali didn't defeat Foreman in less than 5 rounds, yet he still pulled off the knockout. Plus, to VK's credit, he had one of the highest knockout percentages of any heavyweight champion in history. Plus, despite injuries, he still came back to win the WBC belt and he was never behind on the scorecards.
Lewis slashed deep and jagged cuts on Vitali's face with a thumb strike and a holding and hitting palm rake... All within the first 15 seconds of the 3rd round... Other than those 2 foul blows Vitali never suffered a fight stopping cut in his career ... and Lewis never inflicted one in his career.
Of these 3 groupings -- group C has the best KO ratio and suffered the fewest KO losses… In a round-robin of the 12 they would win the most fights
Marciano has the best W/L and KO stats, but he’s the weak link. An extremely weak era. The others beat him
Joe Frazier is the next weakest because he lacked size, strength, and defense... But he still beats Rocky
Foreman would crush Marciano and Frazier, but couldn’t outbox the others... Too slow for the speedy Tyson
It’s hard to know where to rank Liston. Sonny got old waiting for Patterson and the 50’s where his time. He fought 3 rounds in 3 years before he met Clay. He wasn’t active or ready for his most important fights. I see him crushing Marciano and Patterson and out-boxing Foreman with his 50’s jab. I see him possibly beating Louis. You know, Hopkins spent 5 yrs in prison but was fiercely competitive. Liston was too laid back and acquiescent about his fate.
Ali outboxes Marciano, Frazier, and Foreman. Louis outboxes and outpunches Ali in a tough fight. Sort of like the Ali-Norton fights—but a lot better form and finesse from Louis than we ever saw from Norton.
Foreman and Louis would be tough for Tyson. But he out-speeds Foreman and overpowers Louis. Tyson vs Louis is a close matchup. I lean to Tyson because of he was 20 pounds heavier. Tyson beats Ali like Frazier did, but with more speed and power. A peak 50’s era Liston would be problematic for Tyson with that jab.
The guys who stood out from these 12 were The Klitschkos, Lewis, Holmes, and Holyfield. They didn’t have major flaws. Wladimir was as slow starter. He’s not a natural fighter like his brother and finally reached his peak form around 35. Wladimir looked brilliant against Austin, Chambers, Thompson, and Pulev, but Joshua is further advanced in 17 fights than Wladimir was with 46 fights. Vitali always had bad legs from Kickboxing. He achieved better form after he came back at 37 after rehabbing his legs. Holyfield didn’t match up well with 245-pound Heavyweights Bowe and Lewis, losing 4 of 5. And Holmes was a brilliant boxer, but lacked power. Holmes couldn’t get Michael Spinks out and Tyson ran him over. The best Heavyweight is yet to come, because these 12 had a lot of holes in their games and lacked consistency.
Kalan wrote:Of these 3 groupings -- group C has the best KO ratio and suffered the fewest KO losses… In a round-robin of the 12 they would win the most fights
Marciano has the best W/L and KO stats, but he’s the weak link. An extremely weak era. The others beat him
Joe Frazier is the next weakest because he lacked size, strength, and defense... But he still beats Rocky
Foreman would crush Marciano and Frazier, but couldn’t outbox the others... Too slow for the speedy Tyson
It’s hard to know where to rank Liston. Sonny got old waiting for Patterson and the 50’s where his time. He fought 3 rounds in 3 years before he met Clay. He wasn’t active or ready for his most important fights. I see him crushing Marciano and Patterson and out-boxing Foreman with his 50’s jab. I see him possibly beating Louis. You know, Hopkins spent 5 yrs in prison but was fiercely competitive. Liston was too laid back and acquiescent about his fate.
Ali outboxes Marciano, Frazier, and Foreman. Louis outboxes and outpunches Ali in a tough fight. Sort of like the Ali-Norton fights—but a lot better form and finesse from Louis than we ever saw from Norton.
Foreman and Louis would be tough for Tyson. But he out-speeds Foreman and overpowers Louis. Tyson vs Louis is a close matchup. I lean to Tyson because of he was 20 pounds heavier. Tyson beats Ali like Frazier did, but with more speed and power. A peak 50’s era Liston would be problematic for Tyson with that jab.
The guys who stood out from these 12 were The Klitschkos, Lewis, Holmes, and Holyfield. They didn’t have major flaws. Wladimir was as slow starter. He’s not a natural fighter like his brother and finally reached his peak form around 35. Wladimir looked brilliant against Austin, Chambers, Thompson, and Pulev, but Joshua is further advanced in 17 fights than Wladimir was with 46 fights. Vitali always had bad legs from Kickboxing. He achieved better form after he came back at 37 after rehabbing his legs. Holyfield didn’t match up well with 245-pound Heavyweights Bowe and Lewis, losing 4 of 5. And Holmes was a brilliant boxer, but lacked power. Holmes couldn’t get Michael Spinks out and Tyson ran him over. The best Heavyweight is yet to come, because these 12 had a lot of holes in their games and lacked consistency.
Very interesting arguments. Not entirely sure I agree with all of them, but hey, there's no wrong answer here so long as there's some logic behind your answer! But, it'll be interesting to see how others react to your perspective, it's definitely something I wouldn't have come up with myself.
Kalan wrote:Of these 3 groupings -- group C has the best KO ratio and suffered the fewest KO losses… In a round-robin of the 12 they would win the most fights
Marciano has the best W/L and KO stats, but he’s the weak link. An extremely weak era. The others beat him
Joe Frazier is the next weakest because he lacked size, strength, and defense... But he still beats Rocky
Foreman would crush Marciano and Frazier, but couldn’t outbox the others... Too slow for the speedy Tyson
It’s hard to know where to rank Liston. Sonny got old waiting for Patterson and the 50’s where his time. He fought 3 rounds in 3 years before he met Clay. He wasn’t active or ready for his most important fights. I see him crushing Marciano and Patterson and out-boxing Foreman with his 50’s jab. I see him possibly beating Louis. You know, Hopkins spent 5 yrs in prison but was fiercely competitive. Liston was too laid back and acquiescent about his fate.
Ali outboxes Marciano, Frazier, and Foreman. Louis outboxes and outpunches Ali in a tough fight. Sort of like the Ali-Norton fights—but a lot better form and finesse from Louis than we ever saw from Norton.
Foreman and Louis would be tough for Tyson. But he out-speeds Foreman and overpowers Louis. Tyson vs Louis is a close matchup. I lean to Tyson because of he was 20 pounds heavier. Tyson beats Ali like Frazier did, but with more speed and power. A peak 50’s era Liston would be problematic for Tyson with that jab.
The guys who stood out from these 12 were The Klitschkos, Lewis, Holmes, and Holyfield. They didn’t have major flaws. Wladimir was as slow starter. He’s not a natural fighter like his brother and finally reached his peak form around 35. Wladimir looked brilliant against Austin, Chambers, Thompson, and Pulev, but Joshua is further advanced in 17 fights than Wladimir was with 46 fights. Vitali always had bad legs from Kickboxing. He achieved better form after he came back at 37 after rehabbing his legs. Holyfield didn’t match up well with 245-pound Heavyweights Bowe and Lewis, losing 4 of 5. And Holmes was a brilliant boxer, but lacked power. Holmes couldn’t get Michael Spinks out and Tyson ran him over. The best Heavyweight is yet to come, because these 12 had a lot of holes in their games and lacked consistency.
Very interesting arguments. Not entirely sure I agree with all of them, but hey, there's no wrong answer here so long as there's some logic behind your answer! But, it'll be interesting to see how others react to your perspective, it's definitely something I wouldn't have come up with myself.
I'm guessing you've never conversed with Kalan before
Kalan wrote:Of these 3 groupings -- group C has the best KO ratio and suffered the fewest KO losses… In a round-robin of the 12 they would win the most fights
Marciano has the best W/L and KO stats, but he’s the weak link. An extremely weak era. The others beat him
Joe Frazier is the next weakest because he lacked size, strength, and defense... But he still beats Rocky
Foreman would crush Marciano and Frazier, but couldn’t outbox the others... Too slow for the speedy Tyson
It’s hard to know where to rank Liston. Sonny got old waiting for Patterson and the 50’s where his time. He fought 3 rounds in 3 years before he met Clay. He wasn’t active or ready for his most important fights. I see him crushing Marciano and Patterson and out-boxing Foreman with his 50’s jab. I see him possibly beating Louis. You know, Hopkins spent 5 yrs in prison but was fiercely competitive. Liston was too laid back and acquiescent about his fate.
Ali outboxes Marciano, Frazier, and Foreman. Louis outboxes and outpunches Ali in a tough fight. Sort of like the Ali-Norton fights—but a lot better form and finesse from Louis than we ever saw from Norton.
Foreman and Louis would be tough for Tyson. But he out-speeds Foreman and overpowers Louis. Tyson vs Louis is a close matchup. I lean to Tyson because of he was 20 pounds heavier. Tyson beats Ali like Frazier did, but with more speed and power. A peak 50’s era Liston would be problematic for Tyson with that jab.
The guys who stood out from these 12 were The Klitschkos, Lewis, Holmes, and Holyfield. They didn’t have major flaws. Wladimir was as slow starter. He’s not a natural fighter like his brother and finally reached his peak form around 35. Wladimir looked brilliant against Austin, Chambers, Thompson, and Pulev, but Joshua is further advanced in 17 fights than Wladimir was with 46 fights. Vitali always had bad legs from Kickboxing. He achieved better form after he came back at 37 after rehabbing his legs. Holyfield didn’t match up well with 245-pound Heavyweights Bowe and Lewis, losing 4 of 5. And Holmes was a brilliant boxer, but lacked power. Holmes couldn’t get Michael Spinks out and Tyson ran him over. The best Heavyweight is yet to come, because these 12 had a lot of holes in their games and lacked consistency.
Very interesting arguments. Not entirely sure I agree with all of them, but hey, there's no wrong answer here so long as there's some logic behind your answer! But, it'll be interesting to see how others react to your perspective, it's definitely something I wouldn't have come up with myself.
I'm guessing you've never conversed with Kalan before
Haven't really conversed with anyone here, I'm new to BoxRec forums.
Arco Iris wrote:
Very interesting arguments. Not entirely sure I agree with all of them, but hey, there's no wrong answer here so long as there's some logic behind your answer! But, it'll be interesting to see how others react to your perspective, it's definitely something I wouldn't have come up with myself.
I'm guessing you've never conversed with Kalan before
Haven't really conversed with anyone here, I'm new to BoxRec forums.
Well, he bangs the drum that Wilt Chamberlain could have knocked out Ali, Joe Louis is a bum and Joshua is the No.1 heavyweight of all time, so logic doesn't come into his postings...just a heads up
Arco Iris wrote:
That's a good point. However, when did VK's skin cut apart from his bout with Lennox Lewis?
Klitschko's eye got cut open about as bad as anybody's eye ever got cut open in Boxing in about the 4th or 5th round...maybe the 3rd I forget which, but it keeps getting worse.
Lots of guys went rounds with Vitali before getting stopped. He didn't knock out too many of the best opponents he faced in under 5 rounds. It took him 8,9 or 10 rounds to stop a lot of the best guys he beat.
He did eventually pull off the knockout though. Ali didn't defeat Foreman in less than 5 rounds, yet he still pulled off the knockout. Plus, to VK's credit, he had one of the highest knockout percentages of any heavyweight champion in history. Plus, despite injuries, he still came back to win the WBC belt and he was never behind on the scorecards.
I'm guessing you've never conversed with Kalan before
Haven't really conversed with anyone here, I'm new to BoxRec forums.
Well, he bangs the drum that Wilt Chamberlain could have knocked out Ali, Joe Louis is a bum and Joshua is the No.1 heavyweight of all time, so logic doesn't come into his postings...just a heads up
Tomasino, you're a congenital LIAR. I never called Louis a bum. I Always said he's a great fighter. Ali refused to sign the contract to fight Chamberlain after doing TV and promotional appearances with Wilt and promising to fight him... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s .... Joshua is a complete boxer and puncher. He doesn't grab, wrestle, or hold incessantly like Wladimir and Ali did... He doesn't eat jabs like Foreman, Ali, Frazier, Marciano, Tyson, Liston, etc. Unlike Wlad and Ali, he's a tall, rangy fighter with a good body attack and infighting skills... He's a better pure boxer and defends better than any of those 12 except for Holmes and Wladimir at their best... He still beats them with better size, range, and punching power in the case of Holmes ... and better versatility in the case of Wlad.
Arco Iris wrote:
Haven't really conversed with anyone here, I'm new to BoxRec forums.
Well, he bangs the drum that Wilt Chamberlain could have knocked out Ali, Joe Louis is a bum and Joshua is the No.1 heavyweight of all time, so logic doesn't come into his postings...just a heads up
Tomasino, you're a congenital LIAR. I never called Louis a bum. I Always said he's a great fighter. Ali refused to sign the contract to fight Chamberlain after doing TV and promotional appearances with Wilt and promising to fight him... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s .... Joshua is a complete boxer and puncher. He doesn't grab, wrestle, or hold incessantly like Wladimir and Ali did... He doesn't eat jabs like Foreman, Ali, Frazier, Marciano, Tyson, Liston, etc. Unlike Wlad and Ali, he's a tall, rangy fighter with a good body attack and infighting skills... He's a better pure boxer and defends better than any of those 12 except for Holmes and Wladimir at their best... He still beats them with better size, range, and punching power in the case of Holmes ... and better versatility in the case of Wlad.
I'm guessing you've never conversed with Kalan before
Haven't really conversed with anyone here, I'm new to BoxRec forums.
Well, he bangs the drum that Wilt Chamberlain could have knocked out Ali, Joe Louis is a bum and Joshua is the No.1 heavyweight of all time, so logic doesn't come into his postings...just a heads up
To be fair, he's just speculating about hypothetical match-ups. Initially hardly anyone thought that Ali had a prayer in hell of defeating Sonny Liston, yet it happened not once, but twice. Same thing goes for Buster Douglas and Iron Mike, arguably the greatest upset of all time because Douglas pulled off the KO victory against a seemingly invincible opponent.
Arco Iris wrote:
Haven't really conversed with anyone here, I'm new to BoxRec forums.
Well, he bangs the drum that Wilt Chamberlain could have knocked out Ali, Joe Louis is a bum and Joshua is the No.1 heavyweight of all time, so logic doesn't come into his postings...just a heads up
To be fair, he's just speculating about hypothetical match-ups. Initially hardly anyone thought that Ali had a prayer in hell of defeating Sonny Liston, yet it happened not once, but twice. Same thing goes for Buster Douglas and Iron Mike, arguably the greatest upset of all time because Douglas pulled off the KO victory against a seemingly invincible opponent.
That is very true Arco Iris... Most fans go with Group Think... Frazier was a big favorite to beat Foreman in their 1st fight -- mostly because Foreman hadn't fought the same caliber fighters Frazier did.. That's a very poor reason to make somebody an underdog.. In fact, Frazier didn't have a chance in Hell.
Well, he bangs the drum that Wilt Chamberlain could have knocked out Ali, Joe Louis is a bum and Joshua is the No.1 heavyweight of all time, so logic doesn't come into his postings...just a heads up
To be fair, he's just speculating about hypothetical match-ups. Initially hardly anyone thought that Ali had a prayer in hell of defeating Sonny Liston, yet it happened not once, but twice. Same thing goes for Buster Douglas and Iron Mike, arguably the greatest upset of all time because Douglas pulled off the KO victory against a seemingly invincible opponent.
That is very true Arco Iris... Most fans go with Group Think... Frazier was a big favorite to beat Foreman in their 1st fight -- mostly because Foreman hadn't fought the same caliber fighters Frazier did.. That's a very poor reason to make somebody an underdog.. In fact, Frazier didn't have a chance in Hell.
That's also true. Frazier should have fought Foreman more defensively. He had that bobbing and weaving style that worked well against Ali. However, against Foreman he neglected his defensive fighting style to try outslugging the iron-chinned boulder fist that was George Foreman. Don't know if that would've been enough to beat Foreman, but it would've helped as it did when a past-prime Frazier fought Foreman.
I didn't see any possible way for Frazier to beat Foreman... It was much like the Liston-Patterson matchup... Patterson lacked the reach to box Liston from the outside...and lacked the strength to come anywhere close to matching Liston on the inside... He was in Liston's wheelhouse the whole way ... and there wasn't much he could do to change anything around in the rematch -- just an insanely bad matchup.
Frazier had the same 2 problems... He lacked the reach and height to box Foreman. It wasn't a style he was practiced in... and inside he was dead meat
Kalan wrote:I didn't see any possible way for Frazier to beat Foreman... It was much like the Liston-Patterson matchup... Patterson lacked the reach to box Liston from the outside...and lacked the strength to come anywhere close to matching Liston on the inside... He was in Liston's wheelhouse the whole way ... and there wasn't much he could do to change anything around in the rematch -- just an insanely bad matchup.
Frazier had the same 2 problems... He lacked the reach and height to box Foreman. It wasn't a style he was practiced in... and inside he was dead meat
Frazier had a much better chin than Patterson, was stronger, had more heart, and more punching power than Patterson. With a different trainer, Frazier could've developed a style that would have worked against Foreman, essentially the same style Tyson had learned from legendary trainer Cus D'Amato, and it enabled Tyson to move in on his opponents. But, I try to throw in as few hypotheticals as possible when ranking opponents, I still consider Foreman a better all-time heavyweight than Frazier and look at history as it stands, with Foreman defeating Frazier twice by TKO.
There is NOTHING a stronger chin can do for you when somebody is ringing your bell every 3 seconds... You're not going to last very long... Tyson had a better style for punchers than Frazier had... But Lewis is older than Tyson and I don't seen any way Mike ever had a prayer in that matchup.
Kalan wrote:There is NOTHING a stronger chin can do for you when somebody is ringing your bell every 3 seconds... You're not going to last very long... Tyson had a better style for punchers than Frazier had... But Lewis is older than Tyson and I don't seen any way Mike ever had a prayer in that matchup.
Having a string chin seemed to help George Chuvalo, Muhammad Ali, Vitali Klitschko, Evander Holyfield, George Foreman, and Larry Holmes.
Muhammad Ali vs Joe Louis: I'd favor Ali in this matchup. Louis was troubled by the movement of Billy Conn, and I can't imagine Conn could do anything that Ali couldn't do better. Louis would have his moments when he pushed Ali back and landed big shots on him possibly dropping him at one point, but I think Ali would win more rounds and the fight.
Ali W15
Muhammad Ali vs Wladimir Klitschko: Klitschko's size and strength would give Ali a lot of problems in the early going, and I could see him dropping 3 or 4 of the early rounds to Wlad, but I think Wlad having to give chase to the smaller fighter would tire him out more and more as the fight went on and Ali would be able to get in and out later in the fight landing big shots on Wlad before Wlad could catch him back. I think Ali would wind up taking the majority of the rounds down the stretch, and either drop Wlad and get a clear advantage on the cards or possibly stop via late TKO. My gut says it'd go the distance.
Ali W12 or W15 depending on how many rounds it's scheduled for.
Muhammad Ali vs Evander Holyfield: This would've been a really bad matchup for Ali in my opinion, Ali always had a really hard time with guys who were very strong and aggressive on the inside. Holyfield qualifies in both of those categories, and on top of that he's more athletic and quicker on his feet than either Frazier or Norton were. I think Evander Holyfield roughs up Muhammad Ali in several rounds, and wins a clear decision.
Holyfield W15
Muhammad Ali vs Joe Frazier: Well we already know it could go either way when these two are in the ring. Frazier at his very best was able to beat an Ali that wasn't quite at his very best, but assuming both were at their very best I'd favor Ali in this matchup at least 7 times out of 10. Though they'd always be hellacious fights.
Ali W15
Ali goes 3-1 against Group B
Excellent coverage gilgamesh on this and the others. Holyfield W15 against Ali? Very interesting. At first I thought I may disagree, but after giving it some thought it does make sense; styles make fights. I'd still probably pick Ali, but intriguing.
Plus Group A don't have the Klitschkos.
Think of it this way, there are a total of 16 fights between one group and another.
A lot these fights could go either way, but look at the obvious ones first"
If A goes B, Ali is going 4-0 , and Marciano, Lewis, and Tyson will knockout W. Klitschko. So right there, group A is 7-0.
Marciano, Lewis, and Tyson would just have to win 2 of 9 against Louis, Holyfield, and Frazier.
Against Group C, again Ali goes 4-0, and Marciano, Lewis, and Tyson beat V. Kltischko. So again they are up 7-0.
Marciano, Lewis, and Tyson are going to go at least 2-7 against Holmes, Liston, and Foreman.
