Cooper/Ali(Clay)

[Caractacus]

btw as far as the torn glove.
in Angelo Dundee's autobiography,he said that he first noticed the tear along the seam before the fight ,
when he was loosing up
Cassius Clay's arms. (the leather was sticking up),but told him to keep his gloves down so the ref could not see it.
He put his finger in it after round four to make the tear bigger.

[Caractacus]

Go read the rather excellent book,
ONLY THE RING WAS SQUARE
written by Teddy Brenner,
the famous matchmaker of Madison Square Garden.
"Long regarded as the most astute matchmaker in the boxing buisness".
Well.Mr Brenner was sitting ringside at that particular fight in Wembley stadium in 1963(seated right next to Liz and Dick,in the front row,natch)
He writes in the book that Ali ,
"had an extra rest of maybe four minutes",
between rounds.(pp 84-85).

BTW that book (published in 1981)was a "as told to "by Barney Nagler
one of the most respected boxing writers ever.
So I dont think Barney Nagler would print something that he didn't believe to be accurate either.

[BoxBuzz]

Caractus...enough with the rumor mongering.....

What is your actual belief about this mystery?

Mine is as follows:

There is no mystery. Their is unambiguous manifest empirical forensics that clearly show that the "delay" was nominal.....within 10 seconds and no more. It is irrefutable. Just as certain as yesterdays sunrise and sunset.


Now....Caractus, please state just as clearly what YOUR belief is on this subject.

[Caractacus]

"Rumour" mongering ?
I'm just quoting reliable sources.

[Caractacus]

My belief on this subject is that there was a great deal of confusion at the height of the action.
This could possibly be eliminated if.
Someone was to get ahold of the compleat ITV kinescope of the fight and its proceedings
(including the ring walks and introductions).
also if klompton was to download the entirety of his copy of the live BBC radio broadcast.
(including the ringwalks and introductions)
then we can all time it from the moment the crowd roars when Cassius Clay goes down
up until the bell rings for the fifth round,
see how much time that is
between when the bell first rings to start the fourth round,
and determine how much time came after when the bell rang for it,
then subtract and then viola !

[BoxBuzz]

It's been done......and to those of us who have seen the evidence, and looked at with an open mind case closed.


I really don't believe you have sifted through the evidence, and if you have, you surely are not operating without prejudice.


Not sure it's possible to solve this particular mystery to YOUR satisfaction.

Though to any reasonable minded jurist this has clearly been resolved.

The only recourse left to you is the invention of a time machine, and the purchase of a ticket to attend.

[Caractacus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFtaFTiv3dk

[Controversial]

"Rumour" mongering ?
I'm just quoting reliable sources.

I wouldn't say anyone was reliable enough to judge the length of a round from memory many years after the event. The fact still remains that no newspaper I've read mentioned any delay. No video footage backs up the theory. The myth has been repeated so many times that people are convinced it happened. How many people remember the Captain Pugwash cartoon, only last week I heard someone repeating how they used to laugh at it when Master Bates and Roger The Cabin Boy was mentioned. Trouble is that was all an urban myth too and none of those names existed in the show so how could they laugh at it? Witnesses to crimes often give completely different versions of events and descriptions when asked what happened. Can anyone remember with any accuracy how long they waited for a bus/train/cab last week. Can you remember what you were doing one week ago at a particular time because I would struggle, yet we are meant to accept the word of someone recalling a completely insignificant break in a round many years later and ignore the actual footage and newspapers of the day who would've published it if it happened.

[Caractacus]

"Rumour" mongering ?
I'm just quoting reliable sources.

I wouldn't say anyone was reliable enough to judge the length of a round from memory many years after the event. The fact still remains that no newspaper I've read mentioned any delay. No video footage backs up the theory. The myth has been repeated so many times that people are convinced it happened. How many people remember the Captain Pugwash cartoon, only last week I heard someone repeating how they used to laugh at it when Master Bates and Roger The Cabin Boy was mentioned. Trouble is that was all an urban myth too and none of those names existed in the show so how could they laugh at it? Witnesses to crimes often give completely different versions of events and descriptions when asked what happened. Can anyone remember with any accuracy how long they waited for a bus/train/cab last week. Can you remember what you were doing one week ago at a particular time because I would struggle, yet we are meant to accept the word of someone recalling a completely insignificant break in a round many years later and ignore the actual footage and newspapers of the day who would've published it if it happened.

Please list the English newspapers you have reading concerning this.
Like I said,its possible the amount of time increased as the years went by
going by memories alone.

[Controversial]

"Rumour" mongering ?
I'm just quoting reliable sources.

I wouldn't say anyone was reliable enough to judge the length of a round from memory many years after the event. The fact still remains that no newspaper I've read mentioned any delay. No video footage backs up the theory. The myth has been repeated so many times that people are convinced it happened. How many people remember the Captain Pugwash cartoon, only last week I heard someone repeating how they used to laugh at it when Master Bates and Roger The Cabin Boy was mentioned. Trouble is that was all an urban myth too and none of those names existed in the show so how could they laugh at it? Witnesses to crimes often give completely different versions of events and descriptions when asked what happened. Can anyone remember with any accuracy how long they waited for a bus/train/cab last week. Can you remember what you were doing one week ago at a particular time because I would struggle, yet we are meant to accept the word of someone recalling a completely insignificant break in a round many years later and ignore the actual footage and newspapers of the day who would've published it if it happened.

Please list the English newspapers you have reading concerning this.
Like I said,its possible the amount of time increased as the years went by
going by memories alone.

American only and none of them mention any delay or drama. It is easy to get copies of old UK newspapers, it will cost you about £20-£30 for one dated the day after the fight.

[Caractacus]

I wouldn't say anyone was reliable enough to judge the length of a round from memory many years after the event. The fact still remains that no newspaper I've read mentioned any delay. No video footage backs up the theory. The myth has been repeated so many times that people are convinced it happened. How many people remember the Captain Pugwash cartoon, only last week I heard someone repeating how they used to laugh at it when Master Bates and Roger The Cabin Boy was mentioned. Trouble is that was all an urban myth too and none of those names existed in the show so how could they laugh at it? Witnesses to crimes often give completely different versions of events and descriptions when asked what happened. Can anyone remember with any accuracy how long they waited for a bus/train/cab last week. Can you remember what you were doing one week ago at a particular time because I would struggle, yet we are meant to accept the word of someone recalling a completely insignificant break in a round many years later and ignore the actual footage and newspapers of the day who would've published it if it happened.

Please list the English newspapers you have reading concerning this.
Like I said,its possible the amount of time increased as the years went by
going by memories alone.

American only and none of them mention any delay or drama. It is easy to get copies of old UK newspapers, it will cost you about £20-£30 for one dated the day after the fight.

Don't you mean that it 's going to cost you ?
BTW Haven't you ever heard of micro-film ?

[Controversial]

Please list the English newspapers you have reading concerning this.
Like I said,its possible the amount of time increased as the years went by
going by memories alone.

American only and none of them mention any delay or drama. It is easy to get copies of old UK newspapers, it will cost you about £20-£30 for one dated the day after the fight.

Don't you mean that it 's going to cost you ?
BTW Haven't you ever heard of micro-film ?

Why would it cost me, I don't want to read it. Yes try your local library and read the micro-film. Enjoy

[Caractacus]

I just bet Jim Wick's would have too if the Price was Right anyway mate.

[Caractacus]

Why would it cost me, I don't want to read it. Yes try your local library and read the micro-film. Enjoy

Hey man, the burden of proof should be on you because your the one that seems to be in denial about it all.
So you do it (please).

[Caractacus]

"A fight so remarkable that people still joyfully discuss it today"
(?) Well Not here it would appear mate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hwn2mqNI1I

[Controversial]

Why would it cost me, I don't want to read it. Yes try your local library and read the micro-film. Enjoy

Hey man, the burden of proof should be on you because your the one that seems to be in denial about it all.
So you do it (please).

I'm not in denial because there is no proof anything happened, only conspiracy theorists. As you said there is such a thing a micro film so pop along to your library and research it, your the one querying it all no one else. If there was anything printed it would be all over the internet, this subject has been researched to death over the years and it always boils down to conspiracy theories

[Caractacus]

"A fight so remarkable that people still joyfully discuss it today"
(?) Well Not here it would appear mate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hwn2mqNI1I

BTW Harry carpentier didn't really address the 9illegal) capsules of smelling salts
as well as the huge big piece of leather sticking out of the side of the glove
(check out the vid-cap at 15:47) did he now ?

[Tony1244]

"Clay doesn't know where he is."


That has more spin than an expensive washer.

[evrenb]

"A fight so remarkable that people still joyfully discuss it today"
(?) Well Not here it would appear mate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hwn2mqNI1I

BTW Harry carpentier didn't really address the 9illegal) capsules of smelling salts
as well as the huge big piece of leather sticking out of the side of the glove
(check out the vid-cap at 15:47) did he now ?

There's a long version of this on boxing hall of fame Las Vegas. Includes ring walks and introductions.

[Kalan]

Clay was hit real good... He was definitely out for a couple seconds and went down really hard... He was definitely shaky when he got up.. Clay jumped up after being worked on for a few seconds in the corner so he wasn't real clear.. He was foggy for about 30 seconds, but they swabbed his face furiously, massaged his head and neck, popped smelling salts under his nose, and he came around nicely.. He was close to 100% alert when the 5th started.

Dundee complained about a torn glove and it delayed the start of the 5th for between 4 and 5 seconds... The announcer intoned "Seconds Out!!" and the bell rang while Dundee was still in the ring... He was 3 seconds late exiting.. Technically that can cause a DQ, but I've seen late exits many times.. If you're still in the ring to the extent you impede the action they'll take a point.

They certainly would have changed the torn glove were Clay not hurt by the way he went down... The thought was Cooper might finish him off.

[klompton]

I conclusively debunked this myth on this very site to this very conspiracy theory loving moron using both the live unedited tv broadcast and the live unedited radio broadcast. There is literally zero room for for this clown to continue his bizarre adherance to this stupid story.

[Kalan]

Let the fax be known:

When Ali's glove ripped, they allowed him to go home crash in his hotel for the evening, whilst waiting for another custom glove to be flown in from Hong Kong. Meanwhile, 'enry was forced to stay awake all night waiting in his corner. The next day,After having rested a full night, having breakfast, doing a morning run, and showering, Ali returned to the ring with his entourage, where the fight was picked up where it left off

Nobody is amused but you BuzzBox.

[Caractacus]

There's a long version of this on boxing hall of fame Las Vegas. Includes ring walks and introductions.

So would you care to provide a direct link to this "Compleat" version ?

[Caractacus]

BTW I have yet to seen any scans of any of the contempory English newspaper articles from the various reporters
who were at ringside to cover this fight as it happened live(June.18.1963).
What's Up with that ?
Y'all still wanna suppress the info ?

[BoxBuzz]

Let the fax be known:

When Ali's glove ripped, they allowed him to go home crash in his hotel for the evening, whilst waiting for another custom glove to be flown in from Hong Kong. Meanwhile, 'enry was forced to stay awake all night waiting in his corner. The next day,After having rested a full night, having breakfast, doing a morning run, and showering, Ali returned to the ring with his entourage, where the fight was picked up where it left off

Nobody is amused but you BuzzBox.

That comment was made when I was a much younger man and prone to whimsical comments. I've learned the error of using humor when in the presence of solemn judgment, inate competence and unerring evaluators.