The HEAVYWEIGHT game: *CLOSED*

[Crease]

10 votes

Following SteveO's votes, Jim Jeffries moves up to tied 15th alongside John L. Sullivan & Sam Langford.
And Wladimir Klitschsko moves ahead in to 13th ahead of Gene Tunney.

[Crease]

1. Ali
2. Louis

That gives us a new leader. Muhammad Ali has taken the lead for the 1st time.

[Crease]

30 days of this game... 10 days in and our scoreboard looks like this:

Current Scoreboard: (counted after 21 members voted)

1st - 204 pts Muhammad Ali
2nd - 203 pts Joe Louis
3rd - 136 pts Larry Holmes
4th - 127 pts George Foreman
5th - 103 pts Jack Johnson
6th - 81 pts Lennox Lewis
7th - 74 pts Rocky Marciano
8th - 68 pts Joe Frazier
9th - 62 pts Evander Holyfield
10th - 56 pts Jack Dempsey

11th - 29 pts Sonny Liston
12th - 15 pts Mike Tyson
13th - 13 pts Wladimir Klitchsko
14th - 10 pts Gene Tunney
Tied 15th - 06 pts Sam Langford
Tied 15th - 06 pts John L Sullivan
Tied 15th - 06 pts James J Jeffries
17th - 04 pts Vitali Klitchsko
19th - 03 pts Riddick Bowe
Tied 20th - 01 pt Ezzard Charles
Tied 20th - 01 pt Peter Jackson

It's still much, much too early to have a detailed analysis of how things will eventually pan out. But I'd like to make a few comments on our findings thus far.

Firstly, I'm amazed that Jersey Joe Walcott has received such a poor showing. 21 people have failed to mention him and I always ranked him in my top 11/12 Heavyweight list.
Also, JJ's old enemy - Ezzard Charles scoring a single point is pretty disappointing, considering he was the first man to stop a prime Joe Louis.

It's pretty nice to see Jack Johnson so high up the list. It shows that even a century later, the great fighters will never be forgotten.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Prime Joe Louis? Stopped? You mean scheming? Though he wasn't a Walcott rival. Odd synopsis. I have both of them ahead of Dempsey if we stretched to 15.

[Ezzard]

Ali
Louis
Johnson
Holmes
Holyfield
Dempsey
Marciano
Frazier
Lewis
Langford

[BoxBuzz]

He's given some slack for appearing at first to be a Liston/Tyson/Ibeabuchi nearing Golata style basket case, who could not evolve and managed to dramatically lose focus as a fighter. He possessed all the qualities needed, but in ACT I was unable to tame his own demons.

But along life's road, was able to place himself into the Ali/Marciano/Holmes group of fighters who had talent, and rose above their personal demons to find the real "Champion Particle" which to my way of thinking, is self discipline in the face of adversity.

I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt and belongs in the top five....so I like the ranking as far as he's concerned.

[Jaywheel]

Well, Lewis is currently ranked 6 and he doesn't seem too affected in his ranking by the 2 losses in his prime to 2 far less formidable conquerors than Foreman's.

[Ambling Alp II]

We should weigh the pluses against the minuses. Foreman lost to Ali and Young. However, how much can losing to hurt him? Certainly not as much as to Rahman and McCall as Jaywheel alluded to.

Foreman beat Joe Frazier. How many other guys have a win that compares to that? He also beat Norton and Lyle. He has to be pretty high up there.

[Crease]

We should way the pluses against the minuses. Foreman lost to Ali and Young. However, how much can losing to hurt him? Certainly not as much as to Rahman and McCall as Jaywheel alluded to.

Foreman beat Joe Frazier. How many other guys have a win that compares to that? He also beat Norton and Lyle. He has to be pretty high up there.

Agree 100% sir.

It doesn't surprise me that he's 4th (I had him in that position on my own individual list). I would also include the head-to-head factor that people often look at when doing their top tens. And on a head-to-head, I think Foreman's power stands to him and he finishes fairly high up the table.

We all know that a top ten can be measured a lot of different ways, but regardless of what criteria you put forward, I think Big George does well in this top 10.
It's just some food for thought...

[Crease]

Prime Joe Louis? Stopped? You mean scheming?

No I didn't mean Schmeling, I did mean Ezzard Charles.

You've misunderstood my meaning of "stopped". By that I did not mean his type of victory over Louis (a KO/TKO) - I meant that he stopped Joe's win streak. What was it? Something like 30+ odd victories in a row?

Though he wasn't a Walcott rival. Odd synopsis.

Schmeling wasn't, no. But Walcott and Charles fought each other four times for the World title, so undoubtedly they are old rivals.

[Techno89]

My top 10 is

1.Marciano
2.Ali
3.Louis
4.Tyson
5.Foreman
6.Dempsey
7.Frazier
8.Johnson
9.Holmes
10.Holyfield

[Ambling Alp II]

Prime Joe Louis? Stopped? You mean scheming?

No I didn't mean Schmeling, I did mean Ezzard Charles.

You've misunderstood my meaning of "stopped". By that I did not mean his type of victory over Louis (a KO/TKO) - I meant that he stopped Joe's win streak. What was it? Something like 30+ odd victories in a row?

Though he wasn't a Walcott rival. Odd synopsis.

Schmeling wasn't, no. But Walcott and Charles fought each other four times for the World title, so undoubtedly they are old rivals.

OK that explains the "stopped" part. However, Crease you also said that Charles stopped a prime Joe Louis. Joe Louis was way past his prime when Charles beat him.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Prime Joe Louis? Stopped? You mean scheming?

No I didn't mean Schmeling, I did mean Ezzard Charles.

You've misunderstood my meaning of "stopped". By that I did not mean his type of victory over Louis (a KO/TKO) - I meant that he stopped Joe's win streak. What was it? Something like 30+ odd victories in a row?

Though he wasn't a Walcott rival. Odd synopsis.

Schmeling wasn't, no. But Walcott and Charles fought each other four times for the World title, so undoubtedly they are old rivals.

Ok, yet you consider that to be a prime Louis? He was about as prime as Ali was against Spinks.

[Crease]

OK that explains the "stopped" part. However, Crease you also said that Charles stopped a prime Joe Louis. Joe Louis was way past his prime when Charles beat him.

In my estimation he was nearer his prime then, compared to how young he was in his Schmeling loss.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He had already retired because he knew he was past his prime. Needed the money, sorry man, that isn't remotely debatable. Even more off than Holyfield being prime for Tyson.

[Crease]

He had already retired because he knew he was past his prime. Needed the money, sorry man, that isn't remotely debatable.

Obviously he needed the money with the tax breathing down his neck, but even a quick glance at Joe's record suggests that he was still at top fighter (8 wins in a row) by the time he fought Marciano.

Even more off than Holyfield being prime for Tyson.

Tyson was not in his prime when he fought Holyfeld. And never once said that, I'm confused as to why you brought that up?

[Crease]

Marciano reclaims sixth position.

Current Scoreboard: (counted after 23 members voted)

1st - 223 pts Muhammad Ali
2nd - 220 pts Joe Louis
3rd - 145 pts Larry Holmes
4th - 133 pts George Foreman
5th - 114 pts Jack Johnson
6th - 88 pts Rocky Marciano
7th - 83 pts Lennox Lewis
8th - 75 pts Joe Frazier
9th - 69 pts Evander Holyfield
10th - 66 pts Jack Dempsey

[SteveO]

Well, Lewis is currently ranked 6 and he doesn't seem too affected in his ranking by the 2 losses in his prime to 2 far less formidable conquerors than Foreman's.

Yes, but he avenged both defeats.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He had already retired because he knew he was past his prime. Needed the money, sorry man, that isn't remotely debatable.

Obviously he needed the money with the tax breathing down his neck, but even a quick glance at Joe's record suggests that he was still at top fighter (8 wins in a row) by the time he fought Marciano.

Even more off than Holyfield being prime for Tyson.

Tyson was not in his prime when he fought Holyfeld. And never once said that, I'm confused as to why you brought that up?

You said Holyfield was in his prime, he wasn't. Of course he was still a top Heavyweight. He was Joe Louis, doesn't make him prime.

[cfang]

He had already retired because he knew he was past his prime. Needed the money, sorry man, that isn't remotely debatable. Even more off than Holyfield being prime for Tyson.

Louis was way past his prime when he fought charles - the fact that he carried on, beat a few contenders and showed well against rocky is just testament to his greatness. Charles is a greater fighter than louis pound for pound - just - but a prime louis would have koed charles - he was way off his peak when he fought him.

[Jaywheel]

Well, Lewis is currently ranked 6 and he doesn't seem too affected in his ranking by the 2 losses in his prime to 2 far less formidable conquerors than Foreman's.

Yes, but he avenged both defeats.

He did, as Wlad did avenge his Brewtser loss. The thing is he should have never lost to them in the first place. Foreman lost to arguably the number 1 or 2 HW in history and to Young who also gave fits to Ali in the same time frame. McCall and Rahman are lucky if they rank in the top 200.

That being said, I'm justifying Foreman's high ranking not trying to diminish Lennox's career.

[Jaywheel]

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Frazier
4. Foreman
5. Holyfield
6. Johnson
7. Lewis
8. Holmes
9. Marciano
10. Liston

[Ambling Alp II]

He had already retired because he knew he was past his prime. Needed the money, sorry man, that isn't remotely debatable.

Obviously he needed the money with the tax breathing down his neck, but even a quick glance at Joe's record suggests that he was still at top fighter (8 wins in a row) by the time he fought Marciano.

Even more off than Holyfield being prime for Tyson.

Tyson was not in his prime when he fought Holyfeld. And never once said that, I'm confused as to why you brought that up?

Louis may have been still a top fighter, but he clearly was nowhere near as good as once was. He was much slower, and his reflexes were almost shot. Fighters that he would have knocked out easily were now going the distance. Cesar Brion gave him a lot of trouble.

He was much closer to his prime when he lost to Schmeling than when he lost to Charles and Marciano. He had already beaten some good competition before he fought Schmeling.
Schmeling deserves much more credit for his win than Charles and Marciano. Not even close.
The Louis-Charles fight and Louis-Marciano fight should almost be ignored.

Tyson was not in his prime when he fought Holyfield, but he was closer to his prime than Holyfield was to his and still lost.

[Crease]

24 members now counted. Joe Louis regains 1 pt ground on Ali. It does seem that every point is going to count in the end, in the race for The Number One spot.

Also, in the lower reaches of the top 10 - Evander Holyfield & Smokin' Joe are making some real moves trying to move up the table.

[Crease]

Halfway through (15 days in)