Joey Maxim vs Marvin Hagler

[cfang]

Maxim was a great pro but a long way from being the best lt heavy of his era. Charles, moore, Johnson and one or two others were better. He beat mills and that was about his level. A top class boxer who could beat most lt heavys and hang with heavys.

Hagler was the best middle of his era. Unbeaten for ten years and never actually lost a fight convincingly. He was a super fighter and would be able to redress the weight difference with quality. Marvin would beat maxim. No doubt in my mind.

[Kalan]

Maxim would win in a 15-rounder... He was too big, too strong, and too durable... That's why Robinson didn't want the rematch... Hagler barely beat that fat little lightweight puppy Duran... No wonder Hagler never ventured to fight a single Light Heavyweight -- while Maxim fought tons of Heavyweights.

[elmersalsa]

I compare a Marvelous vs Joey Maxim fight with:

Meldrick Taylor vs Terry Norris
Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles vs Carlos Monzon
Sugar Ramos vs Carlos Ortiz
Ted "Kid" Lewis vs Georges Carpentier
Stanley Ketchel vs Jack Johnson
Sam Langford vs Harry Wills or Jack Johnson

Others, but they never fought:
Aaron Pryor vs Sugar Ray Leonard or Pipino Cuevas or Tommy Hearns at 147lbs



These are some examples that no matter how good you are, if the other guy that is bigger and as good as you, it will be a hard fight to wing. Because of the weight.

That is why I admire the achievements of guys like the great Bob Fitzsimmons when he was a middleweight taking on a bigger man to win the heavyweight crown of James J. Corbett. And the great Harry Greb beating Gene Tunney at 175lbs. Also, the great Dick Tiger taking the light-heavy crown from Jose "Chegui" Torres and Homicide Hank taking the crown from Barney Ross being a featherweight. Those are things to consider about their greatness.

[Kalan]

I compare a Marvelous vs Joey Maxim fight with:

Meldrick Taylor vs Terry Norris
Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles vs Carlos Monzon
Sugar Ramos vs Carlos Ortiz
Ted "Kid" Lewis vs Georges Carpentier
Stanley Ketchel vs Jack Johnson
Sam Langford vs Harry Wills or Jack Johnson

Others, but they never fought:
Aaron Pryor vs Sugar Ray Leonard or Pipino Cuevas or Tommy Hearns at 147lbs



These are some examples that no matter how good you are, if the other guy that is bigger and as good as you, it will be a hard fight to wing. Because of the weight.

That is why I admire the achievements of guys like the great Bob Fitzsimmons when he was a middleweight taking on a bigger man to win the heavyweight crown of James J. Corbett. And the great Harry Greb beating Gene Tunney at 175lbs. Also, the great Dick Tiger taking the light-heavy crown from Jose "Chegui" Torres and Homicide Hank taking the crown from Barney Ross being a featherweight. Those are things to consider about their greatness.

Corbett was a very small Heavyweight also... Both Corbett and Fitzsimmons failed against the much bigger Jim Jeffries in 4 attempts... Greb's weight was very close to Tunney's.. Armstrong beat a Barney Ross who was on his last legs and fighting his last fight... Ross could still make the lightweight limit and he was a featherweight hitter.. When Armstrong fought a full sized Welterweight who could hit, in Ray Robinson, he looked worse than terrible in losing every round.

For fighters moving up in weight and beating much bigger men, I commend Michael Spinks for beating the bigger and taller 6'3" X 221 Larry Holmes who was 48-0... former bantamweight Roberto Duran beating a real Welterweight in the 5'10" Ray Leonard... and David Haye beating the 99 pounds heavier Nicolai Valuev who was 50-1... Armstrong was allowed to foul like a son-of-a-bitch against Ross, so it was a setup... He should have been DQ'd like he was a couple other times for flagrant fouling.

[BoxBuzz]

I compare a Marvelous vs Joey Maxim fight with:

Meldrick Taylor vs Terry Norris
Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles vs Carlos Monzon
Sugar Ramos vs Carlos Ortiz
Ted "Kid" Lewis vs Georges Carpentier
Stanley Ketchel vs Jack Johnson
Sam Langford vs Harry Wills or Jack Johnson

Others, but they never fought:
Aaron Pryor vs Sugar Ray Leonard or Pipino Cuevas or Tommy Hearns at 147lbs



These are some examples that no matter how good you are, if the other guy that is bigger and as good as you, it will be a hard fight to wing. Because of the weight.

That is why I admire the achievements of guys like the great Bob Fitzsimmons when he was a middleweight taking on a bigger man to win the heavyweight crown of James J. Corbett. And the great Harry Greb beating Gene Tunney at 175lbs. Also, the great Dick Tiger taking the light-heavy crown from Jose "Chegui" Torres and Homicide Hank taking the crown from Barney Ross being a featherweight. Those are things to consider about their greatness.

Corbett was a very small Heavyweight also... Both Corbett and Fitzsimmons failed against the much bigger Jim Jeffries in 4 attempts... Greb's weight was very close to Tunney's.. Armstrong beat a Barney Ross who was on his last legs and fighting his last fight... Ross could still make the lightweight limit and he was a featherweight hitter.. When Armstrong fought a full sized Welterweight who could hit, in Ray Robinson, he looked worse than terrible in losing every round.

For fighters moving up in weight and beating much bigger men, I commend Michael Spinks for beating the bigger and taller 6'3" X 221 Larry Holmes who was 48-0... former bantamweight Roberto Duran beating a real Welterweight in the 5'10" Ray Leonard... and David Haye beating the 99 pounds heavier Nicolai Valuev who was 50-1... Armstrong was allowed to foul like a son-of-a-bitch against Ross, so it was a setup... He should have been DQ'd like he was a couple other times for flagrant fouling.

Seriously? Your touting Valuev's record? Tongue in cheek right?

[Kalan]

That's where your tongue usually is. You should behave yourself BuzzBox.

The fact is, Valuev beat a lot of name Heavyweights: Evander Holyfield, Monty Barrett, Larry Donald, John Ruiz, Sergie Liakhovich, Jameel McCline, Gary Nobles, Attila Levin, and Clifford Etienne.. He also beat other name fighters.. So after 51 fights Valuev's record was 50-1. HIs only defeats in his entire career were to World Champions.. You've certainly heard of David Haye and Ruslan Chagaev who are the only guys who managed to beat him .... Now, in contrast, Armstrong, was beaten many times in his first 51 fights and won only 37 of them.. All of the boys who beat Armstrong to that point are people you never heard of.. They never made it as boxers.. But they solved Armstrong's pushing, mauling, head butting style and beat his ass.

I'm not comparing Valuev's boxing ability to Armstrong's... Neither could box well... They relied on being stronger and tougher than their opponents.

[Kalan]

BTW, you have to admit that Haye is 10 X the boxer that Armstrong was... He never had to shove anybody all over the ring with his head.. Tons of welterweights gave Robinson better fights than Armstrong.. Armstrong didn't shove away with head on Robinson or Beau Jack.. He had no solution for guys like that who could uppercut with power.. kind of like Foreman did to Frazier as he was cranking up his monotonous left hooks.. It didn't work.. A craftsman like Haye would murder anyone who fought like Armstrong for Frazier.. At least Frazier fought fair and didn't butt the life out of people.

[BoxBuzz]

Do you have sort of a "Hatfields and McCoys" thing going with Armstrong?

[Tomasino]

BTW, you have to admit that Haye is 10 X the boxer that Armstrong was... He never had to shove anybody all over the ring with his head.. Tons of welterweights gave Robinson better fights than Armstrong.. Armstrong didn't shove away with head on Robinson or Beau Jack.. He had no solution for guys like that who could uppercut with power.. kind of like Foreman did to Frazier as he was cranking up his monotonous left hooks.. It didn't work.. A craftsman like Haye would murder anyone who fought like Armstrong for Frazier.. At least Frazier fought fair and didn't butt the life out of people.

This is the stupidest post I've seen from you. Haye and Armstrong in the same sentence, with Haye > Henry is utterly insane

[Kalan]

Tomasino, every post you write is so stupid they're worthless. You're the dumbest jerk I've ever come across in my life.

[Kalan]

Do you have sort of a "Hatfields and McCoys" thing going with Armstrong?

I don't have anything against Henry Armstrong.. In fact, Joe Frazier's style was often compared to Armstrong's.. Armstrong taught himself how to fight and that's the way many tough boxers who get hit with tons of punches fight.. Nobody they have any access to is capable of teaching them how to box very well -- so they train real hard and they fight real hard.. They try to out slug and outlast everybody they fight in toe-to-toe brawls.. If they're tougher and stronger than their opponents.. and the referees let them get away with a ton of fouling.. they generally win.

The problem comes when guys like Armstrong and Frazier meet somebody bigger and stronger, like George Foreman in Frazier's case or Ray Robinson in Armstrong's case... Since they have no jab or any sophisticated skills, and all they can do is brawl, they're certain losers in those type of fights... Armstrong lost many times to guys you never heard of, and who never accomplished anything. There's 30 fights he didn't win. Edwin Valero never did lose a fight to anybody and stopped all of his opponents.

BTW, watch Edwin Valero's fight with Antonio DeMarco on YouTube.. It's very interesting.. Valero was hit in the 2nd round with a savage elbow to the forehead. That foul opened up a monstrous cut that bled like crazy all over the place.. DeMarco had only 1 loss in 25 fights, so Valero was forced to box very carefully to protect the massive head wound.. Valero still won very easily and eventually got the stoppage.. If Valero was a brawler like Armstrong who led with his head, butting and shoving people all over the ring with it, he would have been out of luck.. However he easily boxed his way out of danger with jabs, flurries, and a skillful defense... He forced the hopelessly outclassed DeMarco to quit.

[Nile4000]

Love Marvin, respect Joey. Marvin should have no business in a fight with any top light heavyweight, and Maxim is no exception. He would lose a unanimous 15 round decision to Maxim, basically since Marvin wouldn't be able to handle the weight effectively.Their definitely was a reason for Hagler not fighting Spinks, and I feel Marvin knew his limits.

[Seamus]

I think a good rule of thumb is, If you can successfully add the extra weight, you do.

[APerno]

(supposedly) Doc Kearns, while trying to promote Joey Maxim, once exclaimed that 'he's another Dempsey, admittedly without the punch.' The press corp snickered. After all, what was Dempsey without his punch?

[Kalan]

What was Dempsey without the punch??? ... Maxim had Dempsey's chin. Dempsey could take a shot... Head tougher than a bowling ball.

[BoxBuzz]

Maxim would win in a 15-rounder... He was too big, too strong, and too durable... That's why Robinson didn't want the rematch... Hagler barely beat that fat little lightweight puppy Duran... No wonder Hagler never ventured to fight a single Light Heavyweight -- while Maxim fought tons of Heavyweights.

Taking this statement into account, and Based on what you have said over the last week or two.......It would appear that you may suspect that Hagler was very likely ducking Pryor.
And your may be thinking to yourself...what a war that would have been..........right?

[Sidney Carton]

How about Hagler fighting Rocky Marciano?

How about Hagler struggling with Roberto Duran?

[Kalan]

Maxim would win in a 15-rounder... He was too big, too strong, and too durable... That's why Robinson didn't want the rematch... Hagler barely beat that fat little lightweight puppy Duran... No wonder Hagler never ventured to fight a single Light Heavyweight -- while Maxim fought tons of Heavyweights.

Taking this statement into account, and Based on what you have said over the last week or two.......It would appear that you may suspect that Hagler was very likely ducking Pryor. And you may be thinking to yourself...what a war that would have been..........right?

Whenever you try to put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head, they're the words and thoughts of a moron... which means they're YOUR thoughts and words, not mine.. Pryor and Hagler never jumped weight classes.. There's a precedent for doing that -- guys who don’t grow out of their weight class.

[BoxBuzz]

Fair enough Kalan.....but I swear, I could cut and paste YOUR WORDS.....with the best of intent.....and for many readers, the assumption that YOU MIGHT believe that a Hagler-Pryor bout would be competitive could be credibly made. Based on specific assessments you have contributed here on this forum.


Now......based on your response.....I will walk away from this assuming that you DO NOT think that such a fight would be competitive. And that is a very sound assessment. In my opinion.

[Kalan]

Fair enough Kalan.....but I swear, I could cut and paste YOUR WORDS.....with the best of intent.....and for many readers, the assumption that YOU MIGHT believe that a Hagler-Pryor bout would be competitive could be credibly made. Based on specific assessments you have contributed here on this forum.


Now......based on your response.....I will walk away from this assuming that you DO NOT think that such a fight would be competitive. And that is a very sound assessment. In my opinion.

I love the way they screw with my posts...I guess I'm too honest.. How about this?

BuzzBox, STOP assuming and go by what I post, not by what you think I would post.. Hagler-Pryor is not a legitimate subject for conversation because Hagler was 3 divisions north.. You dig??? We don't do a dream match-up between Ken Buchanan and Carlos Monzon -- or speculate on the notion that Ray Leonard could beat Michael Spinks.. I hope that's soft enough for the censors.

[HyacinthusTurnipseed]

FWIW, Hagler did weigh in as high as 163 a couple of times so it's possible he could simply add a couple of pounds on that and get to within 10lbs of Maxim without compromising his ability too much. In theory at least. With that in mind I reckon Hagler gets the win over 15 hard-fought but broadly easy to score rounds. Weight-wise he does seem naturally bigger than Robinson at least.

[Kalan]

FWIW, Hagler did weigh in as high as 163 a couple of times so it's possible he could simply add a couple of pounds on that and get to within 10lbs of Maxim without compromising his ability too much. In theory at least. With that in mind I reckon Hagler gets the win over 15 hard-fought but broadly easy to score rounds. Weight-wise he does seem naturally bigger than Robinson at least.

Hagler weighed as light as 155 and as heavy as 163 (once)... Maxim weighed as light as 167 once when he was 19, as heavy as 192.5 for Machen, who he actually outweighed.. Some guys reach their full maturity, size wise, when they're 18 to 20.. Hagler was one of those.. Many guys continue to add size through their 20's and even into their 30's..

Weighing 163 could mean you didn't take a trip to the men's room yet or the weight limit is 165 for this fight. Hagler was a small middleweight. There's no getting around that. Though Duran beat Iran Barkley, who was even bigger, he wouldn't have matched up well with Carlos Monzon or Michael Nunn. Maxim-Hagler would be a very tough fight for both.. Maxim fought a lot of Heavyweights. He would have poked a lot of jabs and straight rights at Hagler. I can see Hagler outpointing him or getting worn down and outpointed. It would be interesting.

[cfang]

Maxim's record isn't littered with great wins. The big names are guys that beat him on pts. I suspect hagler would do the same.

[APerno]

In '46 Maxim got to play spoiler (see below) . . . but only two months later Doc Kearns had him in a Toledo Ohio roller-ring stopping Bearcat Jones in five rounds (http://boxrec.com/boxer/29451). - Guess he needed the paycheck.

[Kalan]

Maxim's record isn't littered with great wins. The big names are guys that beat him on pts. I suspect hagler would do the same.

Hagler's record wasn't studded with great wins either... Mostly smaller guys coming up in weight were his biggest fights... no Light Heavyweights for sure... Joey Maxim does have those great wins over Jersey Joe Walcott and Sugar Ray Robinson...

I think Hagler beats Robinson as well.. He'd be giving up height and reach to SRR -- but Marvin was too damned tough for Robinson.. He'd walk through him.