gilgamesh wrote:Any 180 pound or heavier man that lands a clean punch on your chin is capable of hurting you.
NO he's not... Even small Heavyweights like Marciano and Frazier walked right through little Heavyweights like that... Even Floyd Patterson walked through very small Heavyweights like Jimmy Slade.. You need size, strength, and real power to KO a big Heavyweight who has a good chin.
Liston had real power. Foreman's chin was available.. Now, Sonny could jab and box a lot better than Ron Lyle could.. Lyle could hit pretty good and got Foreman going 4 or 5 times in their swing-fest.. But Lyle wasn't the greatest finisher.. When the 1950's Sonny Liston got you going -- you were otta here.
gilgamesh wrote:Any 180 pound or heavier man that lands a clean punch on your chin is capable of hurting you.
NO he's not... Even small Heavyweights like Marciano and Frazier walked right through little Heavyweights like that... Even Floyd Patterson walked through very small Heavyweights like Jimmy Slade.. You need size, strength, and real power to KO a big Heavyweight who has a good chin.
Liston had real power. Foreman's chin was available.. Now, Sonny could jab and box a lot better than Ron Lyle could.. Lyle could hit pretty good and got Foreman going 4 or 5 times in their swing-fest.. But Lyle wasn't the greatest finisher.. When the 1950's Sonny Liston got you going -- you were otta here.
Funny. I could've swore Archie Moore dropped and hurt Marciano several times, but I guess I was just seeing things because he's too small to hurt Marciano.
Physically Sonny's the smaller man at 6'1 & 84 inch reach - compared to Big George's 6'3.5 & 78.5 inch reach.
Liston's longer reach would benefit him with his tremendous jab. But alas, I think that George roughs him up, pins him against a corner and batters him until he falls over.
gilgamesh wrote:Any 180 pound or heavier man that lands a clean punch on your chin is capable of hurting you.
NO he's not... Even small Heavyweights like Marciano and Frazier walked right through little Heavyweights like that... Even Floyd Patterson walked through very small Heavyweights like Jimmy Slade.. You need size, strength, and real power to KO a big Heavyweight who has a good chin.
Liston had real power. Foreman's chin was available.. Now, Sonny could jab and box a lot better than Ron Lyle could.. Lyle could hit pretty good and got Foreman going 4 or 5 times in their swing-fest.. But Lyle wasn't the greatest finisher.. When the 1950's Sonny Liston got you going -- you were otta here.
Not necessarily considering Tyson was a rather small heavyweight.
Liston v. Foreman (first career) - an all out bawl much like Foreman-Lyle - if they fight five times they would split evenly, always by a KO - I know the math doesn't work; I think it is a pick-um, who gets the big punch in, at the right time; different results every time; a KO every time.
Liston v. Foreman (second career) - Foreman by a late round KO - that defense he developed the second time around, the one that kept Holyfield (and others) off him would have proved too difficult for the smaller Liston to penetrate. Also Liston's footwork (movement) was only average and at some point late in the fight Liston was going to find himself standing in front of Foreman; not a good place to be. A 40+ Foreman could still deliver a KO punch in the 12th round, amazing!
gilgamesh wrote:Any 180 pound or heavier man that lands a clean punch on your chin is capable of hurting you.
NO he's not... Even small Heavyweights like Marciano and Frazier walked right through little Heavyweights like that... Even Floyd Patterson walked through very small Heavyweights like Jimmy Slade.. You need size, strength, and real power to KO a big Heavyweight who has a good chin.
Liston had real power. Foreman's chin was available.. Now, Sonny could jab and box a lot better than Ron Lyle could.. Lyle could hit pretty good and got Foreman going 4 or 5 times in their swing-fest.. But Lyle wasn't the greatest finisher.. When the 1950's Sonny Liston got you going -- you were otta here.
Funny. I could've swore Archie Moore dropped and hurt Marciano several times, but I guess I was just seeing things because he's too small to hurt Marciano.
Archie Moore was bigger then Rocky Marciano,physcically.
check out the tale of the tape in that thread.
(Moore had 16 inch biceps).
Kalan wrote:
At his best, Liston slipped and ducked under punches well and George never did.. You have to study Liston and his left jab in some of his 1950's fights like Cleveland Williams.
Have you some other examples?
I've always perhaps under rated Liston because all I've ever seen of him was bombing out Patterson and being whupped by Ali.
Wouldn't mind having a look at some good early Liston fights, as the image I have in my head is not this slipping, jabbing boxing machine, but a very much more crude version, which is why I always struggle to rank him up there with the ATG heavyweights.
No matter how much of an appreciation you can develop for Liston, another way to recognize his style shortcomings when facing Ali, is to watch carefully the fights with Ali, and follow up by watching the two fights after those fights. You could never honestly favor him going in against Ali. Not to say he couldn't pull it off somehow. He had good fundamentals, and great power.
Kalan wrote:
At his best, Liston slipped and ducked under punches well and George never did.. You have to study Liston and his left jab in some of his 1950's fights like Cleveland Williams.
Have you some other examples?
I've always perhaps under rated Liston because all I've ever seen of him was bombing out Patterson and being whupped by Ali.
Wouldn't mind having a look at some good early Liston fights, as the image I have in my head is not this slipping, jabbing boxing machine, but a very much more crude version, which is why I always struggle to rank him up there with the ATG heavyweights.
Every day's a school day!
Another example is the Eddie Machen fight... Machen was roughly the equivalent of Jimmy Young with more power.. Liston easily decisioned him.. He stayed very busy, kept his jab going, got under a lot of shots from Machen. Machen couldn't find Sonny often with his jab or other leads or counters. Machen easily beat a young Jerry Quarry if you need a comparison fight to view.
1 problem for Liston is, he fought only 4 rounds total in '61... fought 1 round in '62 and 1 round in '63... before meeting Clay (Ali) in '64... That's never good
Kalan wrote:
At his best, Liston slipped and ducked under punches well and George never did.. You have to study Liston and his left jab in some of his 1950's fights like Cleveland Williams.
Have you some other examples?
I've always perhaps under rated Liston because all I've ever seen of him was bombing out Patterson and being whupped by Ali.
Wouldn't mind having a look at some good early Liston fights, as the image I have in my head is not this slipping, jabbing boxing machine, but a very much more crude version, which is why I always struggle to rank him up there with the ATG heavyweights.
Every day's a school day!
Another example is the Eddie Machen fight... Machen was roughly the equivalent of Jimmy Young with more power.. Liston easily decisioned him.. He stayed very busy, kept his jab going, got under a lot of shots from Machen. Machen couldn't find Sonny often with his jab or other leads or counters. Machen easily beat a young Jerry Quarry if you need a comparison fight to view.
1 problem for Liston is, he fought only 4 rounds total in '61... fought 1 round in '62 and 1 round in '63... before meeting Clay (Ali) in '64... That's never good
