The HEAVYWEIGHT game: *CLOSED*

[Crease]

I think you can argue that the system that he used is just as good. Why should there be a bigger difference between first and second place than second and third?

Agreed.

[Crease]

And just one final bit of analysis before I count up the Light Heavyweight thread.

Of the 30 Number One picks, here's the break down of them:

Muhammad Ali was voted Number One 19 times.
Joe Louis was voted Number One 8 times.
Rocky Marciano was voted Number One 2 times.
Jack Dempsey was voted Number One 1 time.

[jbizzle20]

I don't agree with Lennox Lewis over the greats Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield at all!

Well, he did manage wins over both of them. Not a bad debate point.

Iron Mike nor The Real Deal were in their primes when he fought them.

Lewis was older than Tyson and was nearing the end of his career too. Holyfield was only 3 years older than Lewis. He didn't just beat them, he humiliated them. Holyfield's grin and body language as the rounds kept passing by said it all. He just couldn't beat him. That was the end of Holyfield's stardom.

[jbizzle20]

And just one final bit of analysis before I count up the Light Heavyweight thread.

Of the 30 Number One picks, here's the break down of them:

Muhammad Ali was voted Number One 19 times.
Joe Louis was voted Number One 8 times.
Rocky Marciano was voted Number One 2 times.
Jack Dempsey was voted Number One 1 time.

Yep, popularity factor still dominates the sport.

[Keko]

Well, he did manage wins over both of them. Not a bad debate point.

Iron Mike nor The Real Deal were in their primes when he fought them.

Lewis was older than Tyson and was nearing the end of his career too. Holyfield was only 3 years older than Lewis. He didn't just beat them, he humiliated them. Holyfield's grin and body language as the rounds kept passing by said it all. He just couldn't beat him. That was the end of Holyfield's stardom.

No one as he (Holy)had no wars in the ring and never chose or avoid opponents, Lewis was the wiser about it.
Lewis led a strong wisely his career.

Not everything is not in years or has had his best moments at the same time.


Ali 19 times is because it is the most realistic.

[jbizzle20]

Iron Mike nor The Real Deal were in their primes when he fought them.

Lewis was older than Tyson and was nearing the end of his career too. Holyfield was only 3 years older than Lewis. He didn't just beat them, he humiliated them. Holyfield's grin and body language as the rounds kept passing by said it all. He just couldn't beat him. That was the end of Holyfield's stardom.

No one as he (Holy)had no wars in the ring and never chose or avoid opponents, Lewis was the wiser about it.

Not everything is not in years or has had his best moments at the same time.


Ali 19 times is because it is the most realistic.

That's still on Holyfield. Smart fighters try to avoid getting hit. Fact is, Holyfield got crushed, twice. Tyson couldn't stop getting hit either. Lewis didn't duck anyone, at all. He beat his entire generation of top heavyweights and then some.

[Keko]

Lewis was older than Tyson and was nearing the end of his career too. Holyfield was only 3 years older than Lewis. He didn't just beat them, he humiliated them. Holyfield's grin and body language as the rounds kept passing by said it all. He just couldn't beat him. That was the end of Holyfield's stardom.

No one as he (Holy)had no wars in the ring and never chose or avoid opponents, Lewis was the wiser about it.

Not everything is not in years or has had his best moments at the same time.


Ali 19 times is because it is the most realistic.

That's still on Holyfield. Smart fighters try to avoid getting hit. Fact is, Holyfield got crushed, twice. Tyson couldn't stop getting hit either. Lewis didn't duck anyone, at all. He beat his entire generation of top heavyweights and then some.

I'm just telling the facts. Lewis has a lot of opponents with whom he was not fighting or too late.


I respect him not to be misunderstood or just say what it was

[jbizzle20]

No one as he (Holy)had no wars in the ring and never chose or avoid opponents, Lewis was the wiser about it.

Not everything is not in years or has had his best moments at the same time.


Ali 19 times is because it is the most realistic.

That's still on Holyfield. Smart fighters try to avoid getting hit. Fact is, Holyfield got crushed, twice. Tyson couldn't stop getting hit either. Lewis didn't duck anyone, at all. He beat his entire generation of top heavyweights and then some.

I'm just telling the facts. Lewis has a lot of opponents with whom he was not fighting or too late.


I respect him not to be misunderstood or just say what it was

I understand your point and I'm not trying to troll you but Holyfield was still the WBA and IBF champ and had reached the height of his popularity with his wins over Tyson when he met Lewis. Tyson had fought his way back to top contender status when he met Lewis. Were they prime? No, but Lewis had been around quite a while by the time he met both of them. Tyson ducked Lewis in 1996 and vacated the WBC belt. Lewis would have gotten Holyfield in 1993 but Bowe defeated Holyfield, ending that opportunity.

[Keko]

Do not wandering around the subject but basically just saying the fact that Lewis was extremely wise and careful with his career and therefore lacks some battles, opponents and others. He had a great career and I respect him no more see Holyfield as a warrior with the more difficult battles. The other thing which is 215 lb enough for heavyweight like Lewis. As for Tyson vs. Lewis not getting who is guilty or not but say it is too late match took place and Lewis was better preserved boxer at that time. So much about the three.

[Boxing Writer]

Well, he did manage wins over both of them. Not a bad debate point.

Iron Mike nor The Real Deal were in their primes when he fought them.

Lewis was older than Tyson and was nearing the end of his career too. Holyfield was only 3 years older than Lewis. He didn't just beat them, he humiliated them. Holyfield's grin and body language as the rounds kept passing by said it all. He just couldn't beat him. That was the end of Holyfield's stardom.

1. Lewis didn't humiliate Holyfield. He clearly beat him in the first fight (I scored it 117:111 for Lennox), but thier rematch was extremeley close and lot of people thought Holyfield deserved the nod.
2. ONLY 3 years older? Well, just compare 37 y.o. Lewis from Vitali fight to 34 y.o. Lewis and you will see what difference can make those 3 years. Add here that Holyfield had his first world title fight in 1986 while Lewis only in 1993. So 37 y.o. Holyfield that fought Lewis was clearly more washed up than 37 y.o. Lewis that fought Vitali.
3. As for Tyson - yes, Lewis was 10 months older and probably slightly past his prime, but Tyson was beyond shot. I rank Lewis higher than Tyson, but not based on his win over the corpse of Iron Mike. I rank him higher because of his longevity and because of the fact that he improved in many areas throughout the years while Tyson's skills only eroded since 1988. Also Lewis always came back stronger after the losses while Mike wasn't the same after his losses to Doughlas and (later) Holyfield.

[Keko]

Lewis was for me the first received 116 112 and second fight 115: 113 but it is not the only measure and Holyfield had in my opinion a lot more heavy fighting, the real wars that like to say. Lewis is also impressive boxer and I have nothing against him, but this is with Vitaly turned out badly with regard to avoiding a rematch. He was very careful and tactful in his career.

[Ambling Alp II]

There was no valid reason for a rematch with Klitschko. A guy who loses by a TKO after 6 rounds doesn't deserve one. Another win over him would not not have raised the stock of Lewis at all.

Lewis and Holyfield are extremely close. They had a few blips and several good wins. I think Holyfield are slightly better. Holyfield beat a better version of Tyson than Lewis did and I thought he won the second of the two of their crappy fights. Having said that, I can live with someone thinking Lewis was slightly better. Reasonable people can disagree on close calls like this.

[Keko]

Klitschko 58:56 had and it is realistic to look better. Immediately after the battle was promised a rematch and then retired because he knew it would not win.

[elmersalsa]

Well, he did manage wins over both of them. Not a bad debate point.

Iron Mike nor The Real Deal were in their primes when he fought them.

Lewis was older than Tyson and was nearing the end of his career too. Holyfield was only 3 years older than Lewis. He didn't just beat them, he humiliated them. Holyfield's grin and body language as the rounds kept passing by said it all. He just couldn't beat him. That was the end of Holyfield's stardom.

Evander was already shopworn, and it showed in both fights with Lennox. That wasn't the Real Deal. Same with Iron Mike. He was way washed up in 2002. Heck, he was washed up when he lost to Holyfield twice. Lennox Lewis is not a great boxer in my eyes.

[Ambling Alp II]

Klitschko 58:56 had and it is realistic to look better. Immediately after the battle was promised a rematch and then retired because he knew it would not win.

Had they fought again, Lewis would have trained and not came in looking like the Goodyear blimp. He would have had the energy and speed to hit Kltischko at will. Lewis would have won in less time than the first time. And it would not have done helped the all-time standing of Lewis at all.

Is there any other fighter in history who people think should have got a rematch after losing in 6 rounds?

[Keko]

Klitschko 58:56 had and it is realistic to look better. Immediately after the battle was promised a rematch and then retired because he knew it would not win.

Had they fought again, Lewis would have trained and not came in looking like the Goodyear blimp. He would have had the energy and speed to hit Kltischko at will. Lewis would have won in less time than the first time. And it would not have done helped the all-time standing of Lewis at all.

Is there any other fighter in history who people think should have got a rematch after losing in 6 rounds?

Lewis was I promised a rematch after the match. He did not do it because he knew that he could not resume. Realistically he was then by far the best day.

[Give up]

I know that it is late but still
Ali, Louis, Tunney, Marciano, Holmes, Dempsey, Foreman, Liston,Frazier, Charles.

[jbizzle20]

Iron Mike nor The Real Deal were in their primes when he fought them.

Lewis was older than Tyson and was nearing the end of his career too. Holyfield was only 3 years older than Lewis. He didn't just beat them, he humiliated them. Holyfield's grin and body language as the rounds kept passing by said it all. He just couldn't beat him. That was the end of Holyfield's stardom.

1. Lewis didn't humiliate Holyfield. He clearly beat him in the first fight (I scored it 117:111 for Lennox), but thier rematch was extremeley close and lot of people thought Holyfield deserved the nod.
2. ONLY 3 years older? Well, just compare 37 y.o. Lewis from Vitali fight to 34 y.o. Lewis and you will see what difference can make those 3 years. Add here that Holyfield had his first world title fight in 1986 while Lewis only in 1993. So 37 y.o. Holyfield that fought Lewis was clearly more washed up than 37 y.o. Lewis that fought Vitali.
3. As for Tyson - yes, Lewis was 10 months older and probably slightly past his prime, but Tyson was beyond shot. I rank Lewis higher than Tyson, but not based on his win over the corpse of Iron Mike. I rank him higher because of his longevity and because of the fact that he improved in many areas throughout the years while Tyson's skills only eroded since 1988. Also Lewis always came back stronger after the losses while Mike wasn't the same after his losses to Doughlas and (later) Holyfield.

1. No, Holyfield got killed, twice. If you want to nitpick you could say Holyfield wasn't beaten as badly in the second fight but that's about it. I don't know why the "too many wars" argument should diminish Lewis' victory. That was Holyfield's style, he chose that style. It cost him against Lewis. Lewis was smart, avoided getting hit. Got even better over time. That is the mark of an absolute master of pugilism.
2. What do you think Lewis was doing all those years before he turned pro? Sitting on the couch? He beat a heralded-talent in Bowe for an Olympic gold. Lewis put his pro career on hold because he badly wanted Olympic gold. He made no bones about that. Lewis took the Klitschko fight on 2 WEEKS NOTICE and had all but retired by the time he accepted the fight. He f**ked up Klitschko as an out-of-shape fighter in semi-retirement mode. Klitschko needed 60 stitches to patch up the damage inflicted by Lewis. That's simply unbelievable, especially when you consider the HOF career that Klitschko went on to have.
3. Tyson was the top contender at the time. Ruiz was a joke, Holyfield was beaten, Toney was waffling between CW and HW and not in the running, Byrd got beat by Ibeabuchi, who was in prison, Vitali/Wladimir were still rising up the ladder. That leaves Tyson. Who else was Lewis to fight? Everyone and their mother wanted to see Lewis fight Tyson, anyway. A lot of people talked shit about how Tyson was so much "tougher" and "nastier", about how Lewis would be beaten down by Tyson. Lewis proved them horribly wrong. He sent Tyson into title irrelevancy in that fight.

[jbizzle20]

Klitschko 58:56 had and it is realistic to look better. Immediately after the battle was promised a rematch and then retired because he knew it would not win.

Had they fought again, Lewis would have trained and not came in looking like the Goodyear blimp. He would have had the energy and speed to hit Kltischko at will. Lewis would have won in less time than the first time. And it would not have done helped the all-time standing of Lewis at all.

Is there any other fighter in history who people think should have got a rematch after losing in 6 rounds?

Lewis was I promised a rematch after the match. He did not do it because he knew that he could not resume. Realistically he was then by far the best day.

Lewis did consider the rematch very strongly but realized two things. One, his mother, whom he is very close to, wanted him to retire. Two, Lewis realized that, even if he wins again, people will just pick somebody else for him to fight (likely Wladimir) and, if he rejects that and retires, they will accuse him of running away again. It never ends with boxing punditry. You just have to decide that its your career/life and enough is enough. Vitali could still fight today and be champ again if he wanted but he has his own life and other goals. He said enough and I respect that.

[jbizzle20]

Klitschko 58:56 had and it is realistic to look better. Immediately after the battle was promised a rematch and then retired because he knew it would not win.

Had they fought again, Lewis would have trained and not came in looking like the Goodyear blimp. He would have had the energy and speed to hit Kltischko at will. Lewis would have won in less time than the first time. And it would not have done helped the all-time standing of Lewis at all.

Is there any other fighter in history who people think should have got a rematch after losing in 6 rounds?

100%

[Keko]

Klitschko 58:56 had and it is realistic to look better. Immediately after the battle was promised a rematch and then retired because he knew it would not win.

Had they fought again, Lewis would have trained and not came in looking like the Goodyear blimp. He would have had the energy and speed to hit Kltischko at will. Lewis would have won in less time than the first time. And it would not have done helped the all-time standing of Lewis at all.

Is there any other fighter in history who people think should have got a rematch after losing in 6 rounds?

100%

Hard to be so when you see the first fight and not without reason canceled rematch and retired

[Boxing Writer]

Lewis was older than Tyson and was nearing the end of his career too. Holyfield was only 3 years older than Lewis. He didn't just beat them, he humiliated them. Holyfield's grin and body language as the rounds kept passing by said it all. He just couldn't beat him. That was the end of Holyfield's stardom.

1. Lewis didn't humiliate Holyfield. He clearly beat him in the first fight (I scored it 117:111 for Lennox), but thier rematch was extremeley close and lot of people thought Holyfield deserved the nod.
2. ONLY 3 years older? Well, just compare 37 y.o. Lewis from Vitali fight to 34 y.o. Lewis and you will see what difference can make those 3 years. Add here that Holyfield had his first world title fight in 1986 while Lewis only in 1993. So 37 y.o. Holyfield that fought Lewis was clearly more washed up than 37 y.o. Lewis that fought Vitali.
3. As for Tyson - yes, Lewis was 10 months older and probably slightly past his prime, but Tyson was beyond shot. I rank Lewis higher than Tyson, but not based on his win over the corpse of Iron Mike. I rank him higher because of his longevity and because of the fact that he improved in many areas throughout the years while Tyson's skills only eroded since 1988. Also Lewis always came back stronger after the losses while Mike wasn't the same after his losses to Doughlas and (later) Holyfield.

1. No, Holyfield got killed, twice. If you want to nitpick you could say Holyfield wasn't beaten as badly in the second fight but that's about it. I don't know why the "too many wars" argument should diminish Lewis' victory. That was Holyfield's style, he chose that style. It cost him against Lewis. Lewis was smart, avoided getting hit. Got even better over time. That is the mark of an absolute master of pugilism.
2. What do you think Lewis was doing all those years before he turned pro? Sitting on the couch? He beat a heralded-talent in Bowe for an Olympic gold. Lewis put his pro career on hold because he badly wanted Olympic gold. He made no bones about that. Lewis took the Klitschko fight on 2 WEEKS NOTICE and had all but retired by the time he accepted the fight. He f**ked up Klitschko as an out-of-shape fighter in semi-retirement mode. Klitschko needed 60 stitches to patch up the damage inflicted by Lewis. That's simply unbelievable, especially when you consider the HOF career that Klitschko went on to have.
3. Tyson was the top contender at the time. Ruiz was a joke, Holyfield was beaten, Toney was waffling between CW and HW and not in the running, Byrd got beat by Ibeabuchi, who was in prison, Vitali/Wladimir were still rising up the ladder. That leaves Tyson. Who else was Lewis to fight? Everyone and their mother wanted to see Lewis fight Tyson, anyway. A lot of people talked poo about how Tyson was so much "tougher" and "nastier", about how Lewis would be beaten down by Tyson. Lewis proved them horribly wrong. He sent Tyson into title irrelevancy in that fight.

So Rover (unprecedented Lewis' ass-licker) is finally back at BoxRec forum under another nickname?

Holyfield got killed in rematch? LMAO That's by far the funniest thing I've EVER read at the boxing forums. Did he kill Mercer too?

[pound per pound]

4 ) Vitaly Klitschko
5 ) Jeffries
9 ) Vladimir Klitschko

The Klitchsko brothers' both getting points from you could probably come as a surprise to come. And Jeffries getting 6 pts would definitely be an eyebrow-raiser for many. It was for me.
Why is it that that you rank Jim so highly? (Not having a go, you can do whatever you want with your points allocation, just genuinely curious)

Still, Mr P4P's voting has split fighters on the same amount of points.

11th - 31 pts Sonny Liston
12th - 26 pts Mike Tyson
13th - 15 pts Wladimir Klitschko
14th - 12 pts James J Jeffries
15th - 11 pts Vitali Klitschko
16th - 10 pts Gene Tunney
17th - 07 pts Sam Langford
18th - 06 pts John L Sullivan
19th - 03 pts Riddick Bowe
Tied 20th - 01 pt Ezzard Charles
Tied 20th - 01 pt Peter Jackson

Well, this all depends how you view a fighter. Very subjective. Lets say a mix of accomplishments and head to head who would win vs. Whom is best.

For a legacy standpoint, Jeffries took boxing to another level, cleaning out all past champs, and some who might have been champion if he had not taken up boxing. Prior to this past champions hardly defended their title at all.

Head to head, Jeffries was an athletic big man with durability, stamina, and power. Good hand speed, and surprising foot speed. You have to see his training clips, or a cleaned up version of the fight with Ruthin to really appreciate who he was. A larger Rocky Marciano if you will. That good, and viewed as a top 3 heavyweight until those who saw him died out. That and the lack of viewable film have dulled his legacy. The IBRO group of modern historians view Jeffries as top ten all time great.


Vladimir Klitschko almost has as many title defense as Larry Holmes, or has he passed Holmes already? Anyone with that longevity on top deserves accolades. He's also a large man with great power and from, with good defense, and at times over used clinching.

Vitaly I think is a better fighter than his brother simply because can take a punch from anyone. Never floored from a punch, or behind on the score cards. A head to head nightmare match up for anyone before 1970, injuries define his defeats, not ability. It's not his fault Lewis would not give the re-match, which I tend to think he wins six months later. I think very highly of Lewis.

Coming back in his late 30's to get his title back and remain on top past 40 is a rare feat that only Foreman can brag about in the history of the division.

[Tomasino]

4 ) Vitaly Klitschko
5 ) Jeffries
9 ) Vladimir Klitschko

The Klitchsko brothers' both getting points from you could probably come as a surprise to come. And Jeffries getting 6 pts would definitely be an eyebrow-raiser for many. It was for me.
Why is it that that you rank Jim so highly? (Not having a go, you can do whatever you want with your points allocation, just genuinely curious)

Still, Mr P4P's voting has split fighters on the same amount of points.

11th - 31 pts Sonny Liston
12th - 26 pts Mike Tyson
13th - 15 pts Wladimir Klitschko
14th - 12 pts James J Jeffries
15th - 11 pts Vitali Klitschko
16th - 10 pts Gene Tunney
17th - 07 pts Sam Langford
18th - 06 pts John L Sullivan
19th - 03 pts Riddick Bowe
Tied 20th - 01 pt Ezzard Charles
Tied 20th - 01 pt Peter Jackson

Well, this all depends how you view a fighter. Very subjective. Lets say a mix of accomplishments and head to head who would win vs. Whom is best.

For a legacy standpoint, Jeffries took boxing to another level, cleaning out all past champs, and some who might have been champion if he had not taken up boxing. Prior to this past champions hardly defended their title at all.

Head to head, Jeffries was an athletic big man with durability, stamina, and power. Good hand speed, and surprising foot speed. You have to see his training clips, or a cleaned up version of the fight with Ruthin to really appreciate who he was. A larger Rocky Marciano if you will. That good, and viewed as a top 3 heavyweight until those who saw him died out. That and the lack of viewable film have dulled his legacy. The IBRO group of modern historians view Jeffries as top ten all time great.


Vladimir Klitschko almost has as many title defense as Larry Holmes, or has he passed Holmes already? Anyone with that longevity on top deserves accolades. He's also a large man with great power and from, with good defense, and at times over used clinching.

Vitaly I think is a better fighter than his brother simply because can take a punch from anyone. Never floored from a punch, or behind on the score cards. A head to head nightmare match up for anyone before 1970, injuries define his defeats, not ability. It's not his fault Lewis would not give the re-match, which I tend to think he wins six months later. I think very highly of Lewis.

Coming back in his late 30's to get his title back and remain on top past 40 is a rare feat that only Foreman can brag about in the history of the division.

I didn't rate Jim so high but I do agree he was a beast of a fighter. He'd have beaten Sullivan at his best and would give a fight to any man who ever lived. He's downgraded due to the Johnson defeat but shouldn't be. He was the absolute top man of his day.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Holyfield insisted on continuing.