Prime Carlos Monzon vs. a prime Sugar?

[NYDominican]

A prime Carlos Monzon against a prime Sugar Ray Robinson.


What advantages does Carlos have over Sugar?


What advantages does Robinson have over Monzon?


What do you see happening in this fight?


Who would win?

Why?



Please explain.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

A prime Carlos Monzon against a prime Sugar Ray Robinson.


What advantages does Carlos have over Sugar?


What advantages does Robinson have over Monzon?


What do you see happening in this fight?


Who would win?

Why?



Please explain.

I haven't got time to explain who/why would win but SRR was P4P King he would certainly have found away to beat the Great Monzon even in Argentina matter of fact SRR would have found a way to beat any man that ever fought at Middle/Jr Middle/Welterweight in history SRR dominates The Great Monzon over the final 5 round's to win a clear 15 round un dec in a classic boxing match.

[BoxBuzz]

Take Clive's words, and apply them at WW.....

But not MW.....

Monzon disappoints Clive and the SRR fans, by measuring a bit of distance, and being even more accurate than his opponent.
SRR will do well and lead in the first six rounds, but Monzon's strength, accuracy, endurance, and incredible wiles will calculate the winning formula and win a convincing 9 to 6 round grueling chess battle over the smaller SRR. In a more convincing fashion than Joey Maxim.

And Monzon would be happy to repeat the performance should SRR need a second go round, but SRR would fare no better in a second opportunity.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Sugar Ray Robinson without a shadow of doubt would have disappointed BoxBuzz and the Monzon fan's SRR Made a career out of beating bigger and stronger men of his 198 fight's at least 80 were against heavier/stronger men before he went up to Light Heavy the night the heat beat him against Maxim SRR record was 133-2-2-86 KO's he was 31 years old and at the peak of his power's now if we are talking about this SRR then Monzon would be caught up a sh.t creek without a paddle or in other word's in deep sh.t if he ever dared face SRR But on the other side of the coin if we are talking about the SRR that came back when he was nearly 34 year's old in 1955 and went 40-16-4-22 KO's then that SRR would be very beatable for King Carlos and another thing SRR could fight from dusk till dawn if required fancy saying that Monzons endurance of all thing's would play a part in beating P4P King SRR

[jezzamundo]

Prime Robinson was a welterweight, not a middleweight. I think had the Robinson who stopped LaMotta fought a prime Monzon, he'd have a very good chance of winning a decision and might even make him favourite.

Robinson is the greater fighter with a higher ceiling, but Monzon is the better, more consistent middleweight.

[Ambling Alp II]

Prime Robinson was a welterweight, but also a middleweight in the early 1950s. He had no problem fighting middleweights when he himself weighed 147 or not much above it.

If he could beat LaMotta 5 out of 6, he would have a serious chance against Monzon.
This fight is a tossup.

[Crease]

First off, i think that we should take a moment to consider that the very fact Mr Sugar Ray Robinson's name is being mentioned in the same bracket as Carlos Monzon is a great testiment to the man...

Robinson has the complete skill-set to trouble anyone. As such, his abilities would carry him over the line against many very good Middleweights of the past.

But in Monzon Ray would be meeting the best of the best. Monzon is consistently ranked the number one Middle of all time (well, either him or Marvin Hagler) & it would be very difficult for Ray as the smaller, lighter man.

Monzon stops him by late TKO.

[Crease]

If he could beat LaMotta 5 out of 6, he would have a serious chance against Monzon.

LaMotta started off as a Welterweight too didn't he?

[Ambling Alp II]

No, you must be thinking of someone else. LaMotta weighed over 155 for every fight in his career. He started out well over 160. He had several fights (including against Robinson) when he was well over 160.

Monzon barely beat an old Emile Griffith who was a small middleweight. A prime Robinson was taller, much faster and younger and did just about everything better than Griffith. Not a stretch at all to think Robinson could beat Monzon.

[Seamus]

Sugar Ray Robinson would first beat 4 contenders in 6 weeks, party his ass off, and then drop a highly disputed split decision to Carlos Monzon.

[BoxBuzz]

No, you must be thinking of someone else. LaMotta weighed over 155 for every fight in his career. He started out well over 160. He had several fights (including against Robinson) when he was well over 160.

Monzon barely beat an old Emile Griffith who was a small middleweight. A prime Robinson was taller, much faster and younger and did just about everything better than Griffith. Not a stretch at all to think Robinson could beat Monzon.

Not a stretch.....two good fighters...anything can happen. But smart money would have to favor Monzon. And Monzon did have a habit of fighting to his competitions level......he (like few others I can think of) literally seemed to enjoy the sport from the moment the bell rang, to the end of the fight. Staying just ahead of his opponent, with seeming intent.

Odd one that way.

[Scypion]

It would have been a great fight. I believe that it would go the distance because both fighters had great chins.

I believe that the Robinson that stopped LaMotta in 1951 wins by decision. The Robinson that fought Fullmer and Basiio in 1957 loses by decision.

The 1951 Robinson wins due to being faster. The 1957 Robinson loses because he is over the hill. JMO.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

First off, i think that we should take a moment to consider that the very fact Mr Sugar Ray Robinson's name is being mentioned in the same bracket as Carlos Monzon is a great testiment to the man...

Robinson has the complete skill-set to trouble anyone. As such, his abilities would carry him over the line against many very good Middleweights of the past.

But in Monzon Ray would be meeting the best of the best. Monzon is consistently ranked the number one Middle of all time (well, either him or Marvin Hagler) & it would be very difficult for Ray as the smaller, lighter man.

Monzon stops him by late TKO.

Stopped once in 198 fight's against Light Heavyweight Champion Joey Maxim when the heat beat him Monzon would not stop SRR.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

No, you must be thinking of someone else. LaMotta weighed over 155 for every fight in his career. He started out well over 160. He had several fights (including against Robinson) when he was well over 160.

Monzon barely beat an old Emile Griffith who was a small middleweight. A prime Robinson was taller, much faster and younger and did just about everything better than Griffith. Not a stretch at all to think Robinson could beat Monzon.

Not a stretch.....two good fighters...anything can happen. But smart money would have to favor Monzon. And Monzon did have a habit of fighting to his competitions level......he (like few others I can think of) literally seemed to enjoy the sport from the moment the bell rang, to the end of the fight. Staying just ahead of his opponent, with seeming intent.

Odd one that way.

SRR when 31/30 year's beats Monzon any day........ SRR was a small Middleweight but by 1952 was already a two time Middleweight World Champion with a 131-2-2-85 record Monzon being the bigger man will not help him as much as you'd like too think today he [SRR] could fight at Jr Middle but back then he had to fight Middleweight's and he made a career out of it and a pretty good one at that.... Monzon did like to fight at his opponent's level I do agree with that to a point a BIG problem for Monzon would be that he has never be in with a fighter anywhere near the level of SRR as for La Motta he had a record at Middleweight that was something like 18-7-2 the rest of his fight's were fought when he was above the Middleweight limit SRR was fighting a Super Middleweight when he was fighting the Raging Bull................ Monzon Size would be no problarmo

[Kalan]

Carlos Monzon would destroy Ray Robinson... Robinson great record has no more significance than Yory Boy Campas going 56-0 -- because it was achieved over even worse opponents ... Here's what's important to note -- In actual World Middleweight Championship Title Defenses Monzon was 14-0 and Robinson was 3-3... Robinson was easy to hit with jabs and straight rights... SRR was decked hard by inferior boxers like Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, Tommy Bell, and Artie Levine... He clearly struggled as a Middleweight and lacked the size and strength to contend with Monzon.

Monzon's opponents in World Middleweight Title Fights were clearly better than Robinson's... Monzon twice beat Emile Grffith who twice outboxed Dick Tiger.. Gene Fullmer couldn't beat Dick Tiger in 3 fights, but beat Robinson twice.. SRR beat Fullmer only once in 4 fights... Robinson was beaten by a crude boxing Welterweight (Carmen Basilio), who has many losses on his record and was coming up in weight to fight SRR... Monzon destroyed ATG Welterweight Champion and master boxer, Jose Napoles. Napoles was ill advisedly trying to come up in weight... Monzon was undefeated in his last 78 fights, mostly because he dominated with his strength, punching power, great jab, and brutal straight right -- weapons which Robinson found difficult to defend against. Robinson notably ran out of gas against the bigger and stronger Joey Maxim -- who was a soft puncher, an easy target, and very slow afoot... Robinson was also easily out-boxed by Ralph Jones, who was a massive underdog with 5 straight losses.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Carlos Monzon would destroy Ray Robinson... Robinson great record has no more significance than Yory Boy Campas going 56-0 -- because it was achieved over even worse opponents ... Here's what's important to note -- In actual World Middleweight Championship Title Defenses Monzon was 14-0 and Robinson was 3-3... Robinson was easy to hit with jabs and straight rights... SRR was decked hard by inferior boxers like Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, Tommy Bell, and Artie Levine... He clearly struggled as a Middleweight and lacked the size and strength to contend with Monzon.

Monzon's opponents in World Middleweight Title Fights were clearly better than Robinson's... Monzon twice beat Emile Grffith who twice outboxed Dick Tiger.. Gene Fullmer couldn't beat Dick Tiger in 3 fights, but beat Robinson twice.. SRR beat Fullmer only once in 4 fights... Robinson was beaten by a crude boxing Welterweight (Carmen Basilio), who has many losses on his record and was coming up in weight to fight SRR... Monzon destroyed ATG Welterweight Champion and master boxer, Jose Napoles. Napoles was ill advisedly trying to come up in weight... Monzon was undefeated in his last 78 fights, mostly because he dominated with his strength, punching power, great jab, and brutal straight right -- weapons which Robinson found difficult to defend against. Robinson notably ran out of gas against the bigger and stronger Joey Maxim -- who was a soft puncher, an easy target, and very slow afoot... Robinson was also easily out-boxed by Ralph Jones, who was a massive underdog with 5 straight losses.

Monzon had 9 draws against fighter's that wouldn't have got a job sparring SRR sparring partner's

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Carlos Monzon would destroy Ray Robinson... Robinson great record has no more significance than Yory Boy Campas going 56-0 -- because it was achieved over even worse opponents ... Here's what's important to note -- In actual World Middleweight Championship Title Defenses Monzon was 14-0 and Robinson was 3-3... Robinson was easy to hit with jabs and straight rights... SRR was decked hard by inferior boxers like Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, Tommy Bell, and Artie Levine... He clearly struggled as a Middleweight and lacked the size and strength to contend with Monzon.

Monzon's opponents in World Middleweight Title Fights were clearly better than Robinson's... Monzon twice beat Emile Grffith who twice outboxed Dick Tiger.. Gene Fullmer couldn't beat Dick Tiger in 3 fights, but beat Robinson twice.. SRR beat Fullmer only once in 4 fights... Robinson was beaten by a crude boxing Welterweight (Carmen Basilio), who has many losses on his record and was coming up in weight to fight SRR... Monzon destroyed ATG Welterweight Champion and master boxer, Jose Napoles. Napoles was ill advisedly trying to come up in weight... Monzon was undefeated in his last 78 fights, mostly because he dominated with his strength, punching power, great jab, and brutal straight right -- weapons which Robinson found difficult to defend against. Robinson notably ran out of gas against the bigger and stronger Joey Maxim -- who was a soft puncher, an easy target, and very slow afoot... Robinson was also easily out-boxed by Ralph Jones, who was a massive underdog with 5 straight losses.

Monzon had 9 draws against fighter's that wouldn't have got a job sparring SRR sparring partner's

Emile Griffith was washed up when he fought Monzon and when in his prime was atleast 3 level's below SRR...... when SRR fought Gene Fullmer the first time he was 35 year's old and past his BEST their last fight SRR was 39 YEAR'S old but you just ignore that SRR WAS AT HIS BEST OR VERY CLOSE TO IT BY 1952 AFTER THAT HE WAS'NT THE SAME FIGHTER ALL THE WEAR AND TEAR FROM HAVING WELL OVER 100 FIGHT'S AND BEING AROUND THE MID 30'S WILL DO THAT TO A HUMAN

[Seamus]

If both guys are well rested, I'd take Robinson by a clear decision. SRR is the bigger puncher, has the better footwork when he chooses to use it, is stronger, has the quicker hands, and his opposition was definitely of a higher caliber.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Carlos Monzon would destroy Ray Robinson... Robinson great record has no more significance than Yory Boy Campas going 56-0 -- because it was achieved over even worse opponents ... Here's what's important to note -- In actual World Middleweight Championship Title Defenses Monzon was 14-0 and Robinson was 3-3... Robinson was easy to hit with jabs and straight rights... SRR was decked hard by inferior boxers like Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, Tommy Bell, and Artie Levine... He clearly struggled as a Middleweight and lacked the size and strength to contend with Monzon.

Monzon's opponents in World Middleweight Title Fights were clearly better than Robinson's... Monzon twice beat Emile Grffith who twice outboxed Dick Tiger.. Gene Fullmer couldn't beat Dick Tiger in 3 fights, but beat Robinson twice.. SRR beat Fullmer only once in 4 fights... Robinson was beaten by a crude boxing Welterweight (Carmen Basilio), who has many losses on his record and was coming up in weight to fight SRR... Monzon destroyed ATG Welterweight Champion and master boxer, Jose Napoles. Napoles was ill advisedly trying to come up in weight... Monzon was undefeated in his last 78 fights, mostly because he dominated with his strength, punching power, great jab, and brutal straight right -- weapons which Robinson found difficult to defend against. Robinson notably ran out of gas against the bigger and stronger Joey Maxim -- who was a soft puncher, an easy target, and very slow afoot... Robinson was also easily out-boxed by Ralph Jones, who was a massive underdog with 5 straight losses.

Monzon had 9 draws against fighter's that wouldn't have got a job sparring SRR sparring partner's

7 of Monzon Draw's were in Monzon homeland the 2 other Draw's were in Brazil I wonder how many out of the 9 were really Losse's and not really a draw.

[Kalan]

Monzon had draws in Argentina that he probably lost.. He was never stopped in 100 fights.. But he lacked real polish until he was 23 or 24.. I would say in maybe his first 60 to 70 professional fights.. That's a very long time to get your act going, but he had a tremendous amount of drive.. He said he always knew he was going to be Middleweight Champion every minute of his career until he got there.

Monzon finished his career with 31 straight victories... including 15 straight victories in World Middleweight Championship Fights... That was over a 9-year period where he was unbeatable from age 25 through age 34... Robinson never had that kind of success as a Middleweight -- and for good reasons... Monzon still held the title when he retired, unlike most all other ATG Middleweights.

[Crease]

Stopped once in 198 fight's against Light Heavyweight Champion Joey Maxim when the heat beat him Monzon would not stop SRR.

Maxim had a stoppage rate of 19% - he was a talented boxer. But he was not a puncher by any stretch of the imagination...

Monzon had a 59% stoppage rate fighting all the best Middleweights of his day.

The numbers speak for themselves & the facts don't lie.

Monzon was capable of systematically breaking down an opponent in a way that Joey never could.

[Seamus]

At least Sugar Ray Robinson took a crack at the Light Heavyweight title, and came up just short while weighing under the LHW limit. I'm sure we'll hear excuses from the usual suspects, but the fact is Monzon wasn't ever serious about adding the Light Heavyweight crown to his legacy, and I suspect Bob Foster's power and reach may have had something to do with it.

[BoxBuzz]

At least Sugar Ray Robinson took a crack at the Light Heavyweight title, and came up just short while weighing under the LHW limit. I'm sure we'll hear excuses from the usual suspects, but the fact is Monzon wasn't ever serious about adding the Light Heavyweight crown to his legacy, and I suspect Bob Foster's power and reach may have had something to do with it.

On the other hand, an LHW champion was one of his sparring partners, and from the reports, THAT LHW seemed to be getting the short end of things anytime Monzon and his countryman faced off. And....I think the money was following Monzon and his Middleweight campaign. Back then the weight classes were fairly exclusive.....and the HW and MW were the bigger trophy zones.k


I know I know...sparring means very little.....but Monzon's sessions were known to be rather serious, or at least reported as such.

[BoxBuzz]

Carlos Monzon would destroy Ray Robinson... Robinson great record has no more significance than Yory Boy Campas going 56-0 -- because it was achieved over even worse opponents ... Here's what's important to note -- In actual World Middleweight Championship Title Defenses Monzon was 14-0 and Robinson was 3-3... Robinson was easy to hit with jabs and straight rights... SRR was decked hard by inferior boxers like Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, Tommy Bell, and Artie Levine... He clearly struggled as a Middleweight and lacked the size and strength to contend with Monzon.

Monzon's opponents in World Middleweight Title Fights were clearly better than Robinson's... Monzon twice beat Emile Grffith who twice outboxed Dick Tiger.. Gene Fullmer couldn't beat Dick Tiger in 3 fights, but beat Robinson twice.. SRR beat Fullmer only once in 4 fights... Robinson was beaten by a crude boxing Welterweight (Carmen Basilio), who has many losses on his record and was coming up in weight to fight SRR... Monzon destroyed ATG Welterweight Champion and master boxer, Jose Napoles. Napoles was ill advisedly trying to come up in weight... Monzon was undefeated in his last 78 fights, mostly because he dominated with his strength, punching power, great jab, and brutal straight right -- weapons which Robinson found difficult to defend against. Robinson notably ran out of gas against the bigger and stronger Joey Maxim -- who was a soft puncher, an easy target, and very slow afoot... Robinson was also easily out-boxed by Ralph Jones, who was a massive underdog with 5 straight losses.

Monzon had 9 draws against fighter's that wouldn't have got a job sparring SRR sparring partner's

7 of Monzon Draw's were in Monzon homeland the 2 other Draw's were in Brazil I wonder how many out of the 9 were really Losse's and not really a draw.

You gotta catch up on the culture of those fights....and sort out how many of those fights were against his own countrymen. It actually could cut a little both ways.

[cfang]

Monzon is the bigger, stronger man and almost as good - id take him to redress the levels and beat srr on pts. SRR is the greatest welter of all time - monzon top5 middle - id take monzon i think but its close and could see srr winning on its too.