If Riddick Bowe stayed in shape. . . Could he have been great?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Bowe clearly ducked Lewis, it's just laughable to say it was fear. It was money, a lot of things about holyfield are underrated, one of them was his drawing power.

[BoxBuzz]

Well Said Saad, but when I think "ducking" I do associate with an avoidance on a visceral basis. And on that level, nothing could be further from the truth. Bowe liked to fight. If anything it was Lewis that was smart enough to carefully engage. And he got his paydays eventually as well.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Well Said Saad, but when I think "ducking" I do associate with an avoidance on a visceral basis. And on that level, nothing could be further from the truth. Bowe liked to fight. If anything it was Lewis that was smart enough to carefully engage. And he got his paydays eventually as well.

I rarely use the term ducked in Boxing, but when you sign up for a tournament and skip the final it's a duck. Bowe's career might have ended up better win or lose if he fought Lennox. 'Ruined' is another term I seldom use, Holyfield ruined Bowe.

[Cygnus475]

Just playing Devi's advocate, but what did Bowe change using his ring IQ when fights weren't going well?

at least he was not as clueless as mike,
who seemed totally unprepared if someone
could chew his leather. it was not like he
didn't hit evander, but the guy just remained
upright. bowe indeed seemed very different
in this respect.

tyson's main problem was that he believed
the hype, figured himself not only invincible,
but thought he would ko everyone within
three max. don't think there were many in
history who had that much hybris, the only
other one that comes to mind is 40 0 george
foreman.

i could imagine without the hybris he could
have been ring smart. when you listen to his
early interviews, he seemed quite interested,
informed and eager to learn from former
generations. he was no peter mckneeley.
what is funny though is that he always showed
up in relative decent shape ...

anyways, mike tyson will always be one of
the most intriguing stories in boxing history.

Yeah Foreman suffered from the same hubris (its spelled with a "u", dont mean to nitpick). You can tell he believed his own hype because it took him literally years of spiritual therapy to get over the rumble in the jungle and accept that he lost the fight. It was very telling how he handled the loss by immediately firing his coach Saddler. In a way it made them both unable to fulfill their full potentials due to thinking they really were all that and on top of the world.

[man]

Yeah Foreman suffered from the same hubris (its spelled with a "u", dont mean to nitpick). You can tell he believed his own hype because it took him literally years of spiritual therapy to get over the rumble in the jungle and accept that he lost the fight. It was very telling how he handled the loss by immediately firing his coach Saddler. In a way it made them both unable to fulfill their full potentials due to thinking they really were all that and on top of the world.

i think it is originally greek and both
is kind of correct to write in english.

to me george is really some kind of
tragic figure, because he had it all,
but in my view had some technical
flaws. now, i am not a boxer myself,
so all i write now might be utter BS,
but i figure if he had better footwork
and at least some movement of the
upper body he could have been next
to invincible.

i always thought his stance was too
close for a man of his size and i felt
he used his feet only to carry his
shoulders somewhere and nothing
else. he never even seemed to
consider to use footwork to get in
and out quickly.

but of course he didn't think it is
necessary to have any kind of tactic
or plan other than brute force. this
was obviously his biggest downfall
against ali, where he punched himself
out within four.

[keithmoonhangover]

- Luv them what ifs, like what if Big Dummy's mammy had been his pappy? Which end would he have been born out of? Hint: two choices.

Yeah, he shoulda, coulda, woulda beat all those great fighters but for his Fat Oafery getting in the way, so he didn't, and at any rate, the Lewis result a clear KTFO humiliation. But he coulda, shoulda, woulda been great in Fat Oafery World, high praise indeed in Fat Oafery world!

Thanks again guys.

It should have a caption that reads.........

Lennox Lewis is still wealthy and is rated higher than me by boxing experts.

That could have been me, but I avoided fighting him.

[BoxBuzz]

No way was Bowe going to guide his life in as sensible a fashion as Lennox. Not cut from the same cloth at all.

[Cygnus475]

Yeah Foreman suffered from the same hubris (its spelled with a "u", dont mean to nitpick). You can tell he believed his own hype because it took him literally years of spiritual therapy to get over the rumble in the jungle and accept that he lost the fight. It was very telling how he handled the loss by immediately firing his coach Saddler. In a way it made them both unable to fulfill their full potentials due to thinking they really were all that and on top of the world.

i think it is originally greek and both
is kind of correct to write in english.

to me george is really some kind of
tragic figure, because he had it all,
but in my view had some technical
flaws. now, i am not a boxer myself,
so all i write now might be utter BS,
but i figure if he had better footwork
and at least some movement of the
upper body he could have been next
to invincible.

i always thought his stance was too
close for a man of his size and i felt
he used his feet only to carry his
shoulders somewhere and nothing
else. he never even seemed to
consider to use footwork to get in
and out quickly.

but of course he didn't think it is
necessary to have any kind of tactic
or plan other than brute force. this
was obviously his biggest downfall
against ali, where he punched himself
out within four.

Naw what you said wasnt bs mate george would have been one incredibly scary dude in his prime if he actually used footwork, defense, head movement, and worked on his stamina. He didnt care about blocking due to his granite chin. His only defense was to shove his opponent away for the sole purpose of continuing his own offense. The fact he accomplished so much relying on just size and strength in such a talent-rich era and later as a slow plodding old man says a lot.

[Tanzio]

He fought a great fight in the 2nd fight with Holyfield. Would have beaten almost anyone else. The decision could have gone his way or been a draw. He also looked great in some of other fights as well.

I thought the 2nd fight was close too, but he looked beatable in both of them. Tyson vs say Tubbs or Spinks or Berbick or Holmes looked a lot more dominant. I mean, during Tyson's prime, which for my money was from Berbick to Spinks, Tyson barely lost a round. He feasted on taller men and didn't do much wrong against Tony Tucker, who is Bowe's height. Prime Tyson had a great chin and Bowe's chin was very good also, but he never got hit as hard as Tyson would hit him. A lot of people on here give Tyson no credit for beating Spinks, but he did a tremendous number on him.

Another thing I read about Tyson is that all you had to do to beat him was to stand up to his bullying. Plenty of boxers tried that before Douglas tried and failed. Prime Tyson, moving his head and unleashing bombs would do a lot of damage to Bowe. Do you think Bowe had the movement needed to avoid Tyson?

The prime you speak of for Tyson involved less than prime competition. I loved the way Tyson fought when he was in perfect condition physically and mentally. But, just a tiny slip in either made him vulnerable.

[Bodyshot3]

For me ...the question still revolves around the original, very sound 'keeping in shape' question posed.

What if Riddick had trained regularly-effectively, eaten half-sensibly both in and out of camp and generally handled that side of his life well?

Better stamina, retaining decent mobility and not needing to have to use his camps to flog himself back to a degree of acceptable fitness may have enabled him to win some bigger fights down the line.

I still have this strong suspicion that Bowe was caning himself half-to-death to just get fighting fit as he got older - he was a huge guy, with an appetite to match - and that was a major factor in his decline.

Just getting back to some kind of fitness became a negating factor!

I seem to remember that he put himself in with the US military as a sort of crash course to get his fitness and a clean lifestyle back...which even at the time felt like an admission that he had major problems eating right, exercising consistently.

[keithmoonhangover]

He fought a great fight in the 2nd fight with Holyfield. Would have beaten almost anyone else. The decision could have gone his way or been a draw. He also looked great in some of other fights as well.

I thought the 2nd fight was close too, but he looked beatable in both of them. Tyson vs say Tubbs or Spinks or Berbick or Holmes looked a lot more dominant. I mean, during Tyson's prime, which for my money was from Berbick to Spinks, Tyson barely lost a round. He feasted on taller men and didn't do much wrong against Tony Tucker, who is Bowe's height. Prime Tyson had a great chin and Bowe's chin was very good also, but he never got hit as hard as Tyson would hit him. A lot of people on here give Tyson no credit for beating Spinks, but he did a tremendous number on him.

Another thing I read about Tyson is that all you had to do to beat him was to stand up to his bullying. Plenty of boxers tried that before Douglas tried and failed. Prime Tyson, moving his head and unleashing bombs would do a lot of damage to Bowe. Do you think Bowe had the movement needed to avoid Tyson?

The prime you speak of for Tyson involved less than prime competition. I loved the way Tyson fought when he was in perfect condition physically and mentally. But, just a tiny slip in either made him vulnerable.

Tyson did fight some boxers in their prime, but Bowe was the same, on the way u he struggled with Tubbs, who Tyson had blown away. When he defended the title, he fought Dokes (shot to pieces) and Ferguson (a glorified journeyman). Not many boxers on Bowe's record were in their prime.

[badkatt]

yes / he could have been as good as larry holmes ....but he luved mcdonalds and kfc and a refigirator in his room

[Kalan]

Most boxers put too much faith in conditioning... You may be in shape to fight 30 rounds, but how many punches will you take? ... That's what's important

Larry Holmes fought very fat in many fights when he was past 40 and 50... Even versus Ray Mercer he was carrying a huge pot belly around... The difference is Holmes had a brain and he could defend himself very well.. Bowe had natural punching ability, but he was either throwing or getting hit.. Boxing is the art of self defense more than anything else -- and boxers who forget that are not going to last for a very long time at the top.

Too many boxers worry about being fan friendly -- Arturo Gatti was fan friendly.. Joe Frazier was fan friendly.. Ricky Hatton was fan friendly.. Diego Corrales was fan friendly.. Danny Lopez was fan friendly.. Pipino Cuevas was fan friendly.. John Mugabi was fan friendly.. Going for the kill habitually will have diminishing returns when you reach the world level.. You might be entertaining the fans by suffering a terrific beating.. You can be both a killer and a clever boxer as Roberto Duran proved. You can have the best of both worlds.. Duran wasn't in shape for all of his fights, but he knew how to defend himself very well, so when he lost he usually didn't get trashed.

[amwsnw]

Prime Tyson would land hard and often on Bowe. Bowe had the uppercut and the inside game, but not the movement, balance and speed needed to beat Tyson. Tyson pre Bruno would be a very difficult night for any heavyweight in history. If it goes past 6 rounds maybe Bowe has a chance, but I think he's too easily hit for that to happen. I don't think Bowe ever looked unbeatable. The only heavyweight of the 80's and 90's that 100% beats Tyson prime for prime is Holyfield.

No chance. Far better for Bowe would have been Tyson as the # 1 contender as opposed to a tall " box / puncher " like Lewis. Manna from heaven for Bowe, a short stumpy guy who wants to come right at him. He would think all his Christmas's had come at once and meet fire with fire. Bowe inside 6 rounds, easily.

Whereas Douglas was happy to stop Tyson in his tracks, and wait for him to come again, Bowe wouldn't. He would hurt him on the inside, and follow it up with more punishment.

Peak Bowe struggled with Holyfield. Peak Tyson struggled with no one. If we are talking peak for both, then we are talking Tyson before Bruno. When was Bowe's peak exactly?

Peak Tyson ducked Holyfield. Bowe's peak was so short. I thought he had it all. Almost another Larry Holmes just without the mental toughness which i think was one of his biggest downfalls not only in the ring but in life. I have a pretty comprehensive career set of Riddick and i think think as his career went on the advice was poor - they also underestimated th toll the wars with Evander took on him regardless of the results. Tyson v Bowe in their prime, we can only dream.

[Kalan]

Tyson would knock Bowe out quickly... Buster Douglas was a very clever boxer who didn't even try in most of his fights---except when he fought Tyson.. Bowe was a wide open target who you couldn't miss.. I know that Holyfield beat Tyson like he was his daddy -- but Mike's mental and emotional attitude would be 1000% better if he were facing somebody as dumb as Bowe.. Mike would be as sharp as he was versus Holmes and Spinks.. Mike could never see himself losing to somebody as lame and cowardly as Bowe.. It would be a 1-round job.. Tyson wasted Golota in 2 rounds because he had no respect for anybody that gutless and easy to hit.. Bowe had a hard time with Golota because it was birds of a feather in the same ring -- and Mike would treat him the same way as the Foul Pole.

[elmersalsa]

I think both, the great Mike Tyson and Riddick Bowe were natural and gifted fighters. The problem with them was lack of discipline after winning the title, especially in Bowe's case.

With Bowe, I haven't seen a heavyweight so big in my lifetime that could fight very well on the inside, something that is an art and very hard to do. He was a manager's dream: Tall at 6'5", great reach, great weight range when in shape (about 230-240lbs), power and technically gifted with decent speed. When motivated, he was a perfect fighting machine. I blame his management team for the downfall of his career. Bowe was one of the most tragic talents ever that if he would have proper motivation, he would have been in the discussion of the top 3 best heavyweight boxers ever.

A prime Iron Mike vs Big Daddy fight would be a classic. I would have picked Bowe in this fight because he had better inside-fighting techniques. He would not be afraid of Tyson at all. That if Bowe comes at his best shape in his life like he did versus the great Evander Holyfield in their first war. If he doesn't come in shape like in that fight, Tyson stops him between 1 and 5 rounds.

Tyson pre-Frank Bruno was a rare combination of speed and power. He could duck torpedo-like punches and had a combination-punching system. His problem was when he gets tied up, he didn't had like a plan B for that. Was content to be inside the opponent's chest doing nothing instead of keep fighting. Did he did it to rest? Or was it he didn't know to fight when he was into a clinch? I think it was the latter. I don't believe that The Real Deal would have beaten him pre-Frank Bruno days. He was too fast and quick and devastating. Evander in my view, beats Tyson from the Bruno fight onwards. Not before that time frame because he was still simply too small for Tyson then. A washed up Michael Dokes gave Evander all kinds of problems. Why? He was too small for a heavyweight then. It took desire and big determination to beat Dokes, who at the time, was over the hill. He wouldn't beat Tyson then.

[Syntax Error]

Bowe was good, but he wasn't the perfect fighting machine; he got hit too easily.

No-one who gets hit so easily at their very best could in the the top 3.

[keithmoonhangover]

Bowe was good, but he wasn't the perfect fighting machine; he got hit too easily.

No-one who gets hit so easily at their very best could in the the top 3.

This. Apart from Holyfield, who did he beat? A 90's fighter that managed not to fight Lewis, Tyson, Moorer, Tua and many more.

[elmersalsa]

Bowe was good, but he wasn't the perfect fighting machine; he got hit too easily.

No-one who gets hit so easily at their very best could in the the top 3.

He had great chin. That means, he could have been a top 3 great heavyweight of all time. Plus, he could fight better inside than any big heavyweight before or after. I have never seen a heavyweight so big as him fight well in the inside like Bowe.

[elmersalsa]

Bowe was good, but he wasn't the perfect fighting machine; he got hit too easily.

No-one who gets hit so easily at their very best could in the the top 3.

This. Apart from Holyfield, who did he beat? A 90's fighter that managed not to fight Lewis, Tyson, Moorer, Tua and many more.

That was BAD MANAGEMENT from Rock Neumann

[keithmoonhangover]

Bowe was good, but he wasn't the perfect fighting machine; he got hit too easily.

No-one who gets hit so easily at their very best could in the the top 3.

This. Apart from Holyfield, who did he beat? A 90's fighter that managed not to fight Lewis, Tyson, Moorer, Tua and many more.

That was BAD MANAGEMENT from Rock Neumann

Ultimately, Bowe made the decisions. He could say no any time he wanted.

[bbjc]

I m sorry but peak tyson beats both bowe and holyfield. Both great fighters but regardless of what people say nowadays tyson was a phenomenen when he came along. They d been training him professionaly from young. Had no choice but to eat and sleep boxing with cus from about 14 years old. Which ended up with him winning the title by demolition of berbick at twenty years of age. A record thats still held today.

Never bought into the talk that evander always had his number. Tyson was pretty much on the way down as soon as he left his coaches pre bruno. I dont think anyone else quite understood the cus d mato style well enough to bring him on any. Ended up with him trying to use cus,s style off instict. Add to that he was banged up for 3 years. Was no where near prepared for holyfield looking at his opponents going into it or the number of rounds fought. And yet still took holyfield till about the tenth round to get rid of him. I love holyfield he definetely had the better career overall but prime tyson would have beat him.

If bowe and holyfield were so good how come its tyson that got all the acclaim coming through.

[badkatt]

yes

[Kalan]

I m sorry but peak tyson beats both bowe and holyfield. Both great fighters but regardless of what people say nowadays tyson was a phenomenen when he came along. They d been training him professionaly from young. Had no choice but to eat and sleep boxing with cus from about 14 years old. Which ended up with him winning the title by demolition of berbick at twenty years of age. A record thats still held today.

Never bought into the talk that evander always had his number. Tyson was pretty much on the way down as soon as he left his coaches pre bruno. I dont think anyone else quite understood the cus d mato style well enough to bring him on any. Ended up with him trying to use cus,s style off instict. Add to that he was banged up for 3 years. Was no where near prepared for holyfield looking at his opponents going into it or the number of rounds fought. And yet still took holyfield till about the tenth round to get rid of him. I love holyfield he definetely had the better career overall but prime tyson would have beat him.

If bowe and holyfield were so good how come its tyson that got all the acclaim coming through.

Who said they were so good??? ... And Tyson didn't get all the acclaim... He was dissed after the 2 Holyfield losses... and the Buster and Lewis KO losses.

[BAD INTENTIONS]

Isn't a silver medalist,
World Champion,

already great?