Prime Carlos Monzon vs. a prime Sugar?

[Kalan]

At least Sugar Ray Robinson took a crack at the Light Heavyweight title, and came up just short while weighing under the LHW limit. I'm sure we'll hear excuses from the usual suspects, but the fact is Monzon wasn't ever serious about adding the Light Heavyweight crown to his legacy, and I suspect Bob Foster's power and reach may have had something to do with it.

Bob Foster had a LOT to do with Monzon's decision to stay at Middleweight... Dick Tiger was a super tough Middleweight Champion who won the Light Heavyweight Title and tried to fight Bob Foster.. It was a mistake.. Tiger was a rock tough man who stopped Gene Fullmer and beat Nino Benvenuti... However, Foster laid Tiger out cold with a shocking display of punching power.. Tiger's only other stoppage loss in 82 fights was in his 8th pro fight when his corner stopped it due to a broken thumb.. Foster was 6'4" tall, had a monster reach, a brilliant jab, and a killer left hook.. Every time promoters tried to get Light Heavyweight Champ Jose Torres to fight Foster, Torres always said, "I can't hear you." That's all he would ever say.

But Monzon would have had no problem beating Joey Maxim, who had little power or speed.. Monzon would have been a massive favorite.. But Maxim did pace himself very well and had a very tough chin -- so I don't think Monzon would stop him.. Maxim needed those assets to stop Robinson.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Monzon had 9 draws against fighter's that wouldn't have got a job sparring SRR sparring partner's

7 of Monzon Draw's were in Monzon homeland the 2 other Draw's were in Brazil I wonder how many out of the 9 were really Losse's and not really a draw.

You gotta catch up on the culture of those fights....and sort out how many of those fights were against his own countrymen. It actually could cut a little both ways.

Well that clears that up thanks for that

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Monzon is the bigger, stronger man and almost as good - id take him to redress the levels and beat srr on pts. SRR is the greatest welter of all time - monzon top5 middle - id take monzon i think but its close and could see srr winning on its too.

SRR was 5 time's Middleweight champion 5 time's for f.ck sake

[BoxBuzz]

Clive...you are clearly able to place many smilies in a row. And as impressive as that is, I think we still disagree.

Though it's clearly a happy disagreement to a headbangers tune.

Monzon should be the odds on favorite.

And it's quite possible that Monzon won every one of those fights called draws in Argentina. Or Lost them all. But they did tend to allow for draws there in an odd sort of way. Which could cut either way. Sort of a "thanks for showin' up" decision. But it's not like he faltered later on in his career in such a way to make them seem suspect. Although based on later performance perhaps the safer assumption is that they were indeed wins. Sometimes about all you can do is use your imagination. Which it seem you were able to do quite well.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Clive...you are clearly able to place many smilies in a row. And as impressive as that is, I think we still disagree.

Though it's clearly a happy disagreement to a headbangers tune.

Monzon should be the odds on favorite.

And it's quite possible that Monzon won every one of those fights called draws in Argentina. Or Lost them all. But they did tend to allow for draws there in an odd sort of way. Which could cut either way. Sort of a "thanks for showin' up" decision. But it's not like he faltered later on in his career in such a way to make them seem suspect. Although based on later performance perhaps the safer assumption is that they were indeed wins. Sometimes about all you can do is use your imagination. Which it seem you were able to do quite well.

Monzon was a Legend but the more I look at his record and his opponent's record's especially his 15 title fight's and what age some of his opponent's and how 3 were blown up Middleweight's in Griffith x2/Napoles and Moyer who was even on 2 judge's card's when the fight was stopped in round 5
the 3 were well into their 30's I have always held Monzon in high regard but back to what I was saying the more I look at his record the more I come to the conclusion that I have slightly OVER-RATED Monzon he could have fought another HOF in 1977 in Marvin Hagler who was 22 year's old and had a record of 32-2-1 but that never happened he could only beat what was put in front of him I know that but his competition compared to SRR aint in the same ball park Monzon cannot be in my opinion put above Hagler either ... ''BoxBuzz'' Your line Sort of a ''thanks for showin up'' decision well that will do me that SORT OF SUMS UP YOUR SILLY LITTLE ARGUEMENT THANKS MATE

[Seamus]

I thought Monzon was way behind against Bouttier in the 2nd bout, when he scored a knockdown in each of the last 3 rounds. He deserved to keep his title, but those scorecards were extremely biased in his favor. Somehow I don't envision Bouttier giving Robinson that much trouble, at least not 12 rds of it.

[BoxBuzz]

Clive...you are clearly able to place many smilies in a row. And as impressive as that is, I think we still disagree.

Though it's clearly a happy disagreement to a headbangers tune.

Monzon should be the odds on favorite.

And it's quite possible that Monzon won every one of those fights called draws in Argentina. Or Lost them all. But they did tend to allow for draws there in an odd sort of way. Which could cut either way. Sort of a "thanks for showin' up" decision. But it's not like he faltered later on in his career in such a way to make them seem suspect. Although based on later performance perhaps the safer assumption is that they were indeed wins. Sometimes about all you can do is use your imagination. Which it seem you were able to do quite well.

Monzon was a Legend but the more I look at his record and his opponent's record's especially his 15 title fight's and what age some of his opponent's and how 3 were blown up Middleweight's in Griffith x2/Napoles and Moyer who was even on 2 judge's card's when the fight was stopped in round 5
the 3 were well into their 30's I have always held Monzon in high regard but back to what I was saying the more I look at his record the more I come to the conclusion that I have slightly OVER-RATED Monzon he could have fought another HOF in 1977 in Marvin Hagler who was 22 year's old and had a record of 32-2-1 but that never happened he could only beat what was put in front of him I know that but his competition compared to SRR aint in the same ball park Monzon cannot be in my opinion put above Hagler either ... ''BoxBuzz'' Your line Sort of a ''thanks for showin up'' decision well that will do me that SORT OF SUMS UP YOUR SILLY LITTLE ARGUEMENT THANKS MATE

Hey......a good group of icons will always carry you through! And that was a bunch of them! Ya got style kid!

[BoxBuzz]

I thought Monzon was way behind against Bouttier in the 2nd bout, when he scored a knockdown in each of the last 3 rounds. He deserved to keep his title, but those scorecards were extremely biased in his favor. Somehow I don't envision Bouttier giving Robinson that much trouble, at least not 12 rds of it.

The outcome of that fight was never in doubt, If you don't recognize Bouttier being as game as they come, and Monzon enjoying the game, and then Monzon dominating where he pleased, then I think you missed a lot as you watched that fight. Monzon was pretty relaxed for a someone who was in any trouble. Regardless of the points being awarded, there was a one sided fight being executed. Monzon was in cruise control. I.M.H.O. A perfect example of his rather ruthless enjoyment of the sport.

[elmersalsa]

King Carlos beats the original Sugar Man. King Carlos was a very clever and disciplined boxer. He had that aura invincibility, like saying "I can't be beat!"
One thing for sure, he enjoyed kicking your behind. He was very cool and serene in his demeanor. His mental approach to the fight was that he was always so sure of himself.
Sugar Ray won't be stopped because he had a hell of a chin, but he loses by decision.

[Kalan]

At least Sugar Ray Robinson took a crack at the Light Heavyweight title, and came up just short while weighing under the LHW limit. I'm sure we'll hear excuses from the usual suspects, but the fact is Monzon wasn't ever serious about adding the Light Heavyweight crown to his legacy, and I suspect Bob Foster's power and reach may have had something to do with it.

Bob Foster had a LOT to do with Monzon's decision to stay at Middleweight... Dick Tiger was a super tough Middleweight Champion who won the Light Heavyweight Title and tried to fight Bob Foster.. It was a mistake.. Tiger was a rock tough man who stopped Gene Fullmer and beat Nino Benvenuti... However, Foster laid Tiger out cold with a shocking display of punching power.. Tiger's only other stoppage loss in 82 fights was in his 8th pro fight when his corner stopped it due to a broken thumb.. Foster was 6'4" tall, had a monster reach, a brilliant jab, and a killer left hook.. Every time promoters tried to get Light Heavyweight Champ Jose Torres to fight Foster, Torres always said, "I can't hear you." That's all he would ever say.

But Monzon would have had no problem beating Joey Maxim, who had little power or speed.. Monzon would have been a massive favorite.. But Maxim did pace himself very well and had a very tough chin -- so I don't think Monzon would stop him.. Maxim needed those assets to stop Robinson.

Why do people like you write revisionist garbage and try to portray it as fact?

What part of L. RTD 13 / 15 is so hard for you to comprehend? It doesn't read L. KO. or L. TKO. You do yourself no favours by inventing shite to suit your anti Robinson agenda. In fact you only make yourself look an idiot, tbh.

You don't know what you're talking about fruitcake... KO literally means knocked out of the fight, NOT knocked cold... If one fighter quits in his corner... or If the referee stops the fight... or If his corner stops the fight... ALL of them go his opponent's KO record, and they should... Sonny Liston quitting in his corner vs Ali... Jesse James Leija quitting in his corner vs Tszyu... Julio Cesar Chavez quitting in his corner vs De La Hoya... Carlos Ortiz quitting in his corner vs Buchanan... Robero Duran quitting in the middle of a round vs Leonard... Acelino Freitas quitting vs Corrales... All those stoppages went on the opponent's KO record---and they were all in much better shape than Sugar Ray Robinson who barely made it back to his corner following the 13th round... Had SRR come out for the next round he would have been murdered... Robinson is a statistic on Joey Maxim's KO record -- and SRR refused a very lucrative and in-demand rematch.. I'm not anti-Robinson.. He was a great fighter, but there are a lot of Robinson fables out there.. Monzon was never beaten in a Middleweight Championship fight (going 15-0) and Robinson was beaten often in fewer Middleweight Championship fights ... and he was stopped by Maxim.

[BoxBuzz]

To be fair....BoxRec is using "Retired" to describe such fights.

I don't think it's an official descriptor on the record. I do think it's a good call on their part to help in the sorting of how a fighters loss was determined....but "TKO and KO" were the lexicon I remember being used in such cases in the past.


It's semantics, so we shouldn't get bogged down it it. Purely technical jargon. I do think they have enlisted it to decipher between a refs call, and the fighters call.


Anyone want to fact check me on that?

[Kalan]

Why do people like you write revisionist garbage and try to portray it as fact?

What part of L. RTD 13 / 15 is so hard for you to comprehend? It doesn't read L. KO. or L. TKO. You do yourself no favours by inventing shite to suit your anti Robinson agenda. In fact you only make yourself look an idiot, tbh.

You don't know what you're talking about fruitcake... KO literally means knocked out of the fight, NOT knocked cold... If one fighter quits in his corner... or If the referee stops the fight... or If his corner stops the fight... ALL of them go his opponent's KO record, and they should... Sonny Liston quitting in his corner vs Ali... Jesse James Leija quitting in his corner vs Tszyu... Julio Cesar Chavez quitting in his corner vs De La Hoya... Carlos Ortiz quitting in his corner vs Buchanan... Robero Duran quitting in the middle of a round vs Leonard... Acelino Freitas quitting vs Corrales... All those stoppages went on the opponent's KO record---and they were all in much better shape than Sugar Ray Robinson who barely made it back to his corner following the 13th round... Had SRR come out for the next round he would have been murdered... Robinson is a statistic on Joey Maxim's KO record -- and SRR refused a very lucrative and in-demand rematch.. I'm not anti-Robinson.. He was a great fighter, but there are a lot of Robinson fables out there.. Monzon was never beaten in a Middleweight Championship fight (going 15-0) and Robinson was beaten often in fewer Middleweight Championship fights ... and he was stopped by Maxim.

Their is only ONE fruitcake in this thread with your anti Robinson agenda, and you are it. No one gives a shite what idiots and morons WANT to believe. The record shows Robinson RETIRED after 13 rounds. It dos NOT show Maxim won by any kind of stoppage win. Get over it.

If you knew half as much as you claim to know this shouldn't be too hard for you to understand. Giving away 16 lbs at the weigh in, SRR was winning the fight ( when he dehydrated so badly due to the heat he decided to retire ) by the following scores.

10-3, 9-3-1, and 7-3-3 (all for Robinson)

It has long since been established Maxim couldn't knock out bent gear, never mind anything else. Robinson simply didn't have enough water in his body to stay upright for a further 6 minutes, it had less than fuk all to do with Maxim's punches, or indeed his ability.

Sugar Ray was so superior he made Maxim look a halfwit in the fight. Much like you are doing to yourself by claiming Maxim was in any way, shape, or form the better fighter on the night.

But Robinson wasn't bent gear... He was flesh and blood and therefore vulnerable to getting worn down and stopped by a bigger, stronger man like Maxim.. Robinson was the halfwit you stupid ass.. Maxim paced himself beautifully, taking note of the temperature (It was just as hot for Maxim in that ring). So Maxim was smarter... He wore Robinson down, and forced the stoppage... When a boxer or his corner stops an important World Championship Fight it's because his health is in danger and he loses the fight by KO... It goes on Maxim's KO record as a KO win and Robinson's KO'd by record as KO loss... Check out Sugar Ray Robinson's losses by KO... His KO loss to Maxim is right there on his record like a sore thumb... He was stopped...i.e. KO'd for dumb Dilberts like you to get through your tiny brain.

[Kalan]

To be fair....BoxRec is using "Retired" to describe such fights.

I don't think it's an official descriptor on the record. I do think it's a good call on their part to help in the sorting of how a fighters loss was determined....but "TKO and KO" were the lexicon I remember being used in such cases in the past.


It's semantics, so we shouldn't get bogged down it it. Purely technical jargon. I do think they have enlisted it to decipher between a refs call, and the fighters call.


Anyone want to fact check me on that?

It seems like you're almost understanding some of the raw basics...such as whether a boxer who quits suffers a KO loss on his record or not... He does.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Clive...you are clearly able to place many smilies in a row. And as impressive as that is, I think we still disagree.

Though it's clearly a happy disagreement to a headbangers tune.

Monzon should be the odds on favorite.

And it's quite possible that Monzon won every one of those fights called draws in Argentina. Or Lost them all. But they did tend to allow for draws there in an odd sort of way. Which could cut either way. Sort of a "thanks for showin' up" decision. But it's not like he faltered later on in his career in such a way to make them seem suspect. Although based on later performance perhaps the safer assumption is that they were indeed wins. Sometimes about all you can do is use your imagination. Which it seem you were able to do quite well.

Monzon was a Legend but the more I look at his record and his opponent's record's especially his 15 title fight's and what age some of his opponent's and how 3 were blown up Middleweight's in Griffith x2/Napoles and Moyer who was even on 2 judge's card's when the fight was stopped in round 5
the 3 were well into their 30's I have always held Monzon in high regard but back to what I was saying the more I look at his record the more I come to the conclusion that I have slightly OVER-RATED Monzon he could have fought another HOF in 1977 in Marvin Hagler who was 22 year's old and had a record of 32-2-1 but that never happened he could only beat what was put in front of him I know that but his competition compared to SRR aint in the same ball park Monzon cannot be in my opinion put above Hagler either ... ''BoxBuzz'' Your line Sort of a ''thanks for showin up'' decision well that will do me that SORT OF SUMS UP YOUR SILLY LITTLE ARGUEMENT THANKS MATE

Hey......a good group of icons will always carry you through! And that was a bunch of them! Ya got style kid!

THANKS FOR SHOWING UP CHAMP

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Carlos Monzon would destroy Ray Robinson... Robinson great record has no more significance than Yory Boy Campas going 56-0 -- because it was achieved over even worse opponents ... Here's what's important to note -- In actual World Middleweight Championship Title Defenses Monzon was 14-0 and Robinson was 3-3... Robinson was easy to hit with jabs and straight rights... SRR was decked hard by inferior boxers like Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, Tommy Bell, and Artie Levine... He clearly struggled as a Middleweight and lacked the size and strength to contend with Monzon.

Monzon's opponents in World Middleweight Title Fights were clearly better than Robinson's... Monzon twice beat Emile Grffith who twice outboxed Dick Tiger.. Gene Fullmer couldn't beat Dick Tiger in 3 fights, but beat Robinson twice.. SRR beat Fullmer only once in 4 fights... Robinson was beaten by a crude boxing Welterweight (Carmen Basilio), who has many losses on his record and was coming up in weight to fight SRR... Monzon destroyed ATG Welterweight Champion and master boxer, Jose Napoles. Napoles was ill advisedly trying to come up in weight... Monzon was undefeated in his last 78 fights, mostly because he dominated with his strength, punching power, great jab, and brutal straight right -- weapons which Robinson found difficult to defend against. Robinson notably ran out of gas against the bigger and stronger Joey Maxim -- who was a soft puncher, an easy target, and very slow afoot... Robinson was also easily out-boxed by Ralph Jones, who was a massive underdog with 5 straight losses.

NO FIGHTER EVER EVER DESTROYED SRR I DON'T THINK WE WOULD BE STARTING WITH MONZON Middleweight title fight's by the end of 1952 at 31 year's old SRR retired with a 133 -2-2-85 ko's record he at that time was 6-1-5 ko's in World Middleweight Title fight's when he came back he was going on 34 year's old and was NOT THE SAME FIGHTER HE ONCE WAS [and who could blame him with all those pro and amateur fight's] but was still Good enough to win the Middleweight Title 3 more time's when PAST HIS BEST he went 4-5-1-3 ko's and out of those 5 loss's 3 were by split dec so in Total he had 17 Middleweight World Title WHATS this 3-3 fight's why tell fib's to make Monzon record look better then it really is he never never ever beat a fighter the calibre of SRR all up SRR record in Middleweight Title fight's 10-6-1-8ko's stop COMPARING SRR WITH MONZON WHEN HE WAS 34 YOUR KIDDING YOURSELF WHEN SRR WAS OVER 31 YEAR'S OLD YOU AND I KNOW HE WAS OVER THE HILL ALL OF THOSE LOSS'S YOU MENTION ARE PATHETIC AND A LAME ARGUMENT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 2 MEN FIGHTING EACH OTHER AT THEIR BEST SO STOP COMPARING A OVER THE HILL VERSION OF SRR FIGHTING MONZON

[BoxBuzz]

Monzon in his prime was arguably the best MW of all time.....SRR was pretty clearly the best WW.

And a good MW when he moved up.

I'd bet on Monzon, you'd bet on SRR. I'd be very comfortable with my investment.

[Ambling Alp II]

Robinson was also arguably the best middleweight of all time as well.
A problem that some people seem to have when rating him at middleweight is that they assume that he "moved up" to middleweight in 1951 when he won the middleweight title in 1951. They don't even look at at what he was doing against middleweights way before that. He already beat LaMotta four times before 1951.
The first time that he beat LaMotta was in 1943.

Another thing is that they look at his fights late in career (Monzon was retired at this age) and think he was in prime when he was fighting on even terms with Basilio, Fullmer etc.

In summary people are ignoring several primes years (in the 1940s) counting his fights when he was in his mid-late 30s. Sure if you do that, he was not one of the very best middleweight and he would have lost to Monzon most of the time.

[Ezzard]

It's a 50-50 fight. Just depends on who/what you like...

[BoxBuzz]

To be fair....BoxRec is using "Retired" to describe such fights.

I don't think it's an official descriptor on the record. I do think it's a good call on their part to help in the sorting of how a fighters loss was determined....but "TKO and KO" were the lexicon I remember being used in such cases in the past.


It's semantics, so we shouldn't get bogged down it it. Purely technical jargon. I do think they have enlisted it to decipher between a refs call, and the fighters call.


Anyone want to fact check me on that?

It seems like you're almost understanding some of the raw basics...such as whether a boxer who quits suffers a KO loss on his record or not... He does.

Context is everything Poindexter.......

Here is the BoxRec definition as to how they use the term "retired".....though because the database is so big, it has been known to be used incorrectly. (Human error) And as I suspected is meant to give a bit more info/context as to KO/TKO rulings.

We (BoxRec) introduced RTD (retired) and it only applies when corner retires or is retired by doctor between rounds. Unfortunately from time to time some editors don't have a clear understanding of it, or commissions fail to provide sufficient info.
In boxrer's overall record, it still registers as KO/TKO loss/win

[elmersalsa]

I rate the great Carlos Monzon over the great Sugar Ray Robinson at middleweight.

Pound per pound, the original Sugar Man was way better and had better resume and longevity.

In a head to head fight, I pick King Carlos. To me, he was a better fighter watching him on film.

At middleweight, Monzon beat some good quality of opposition. It's not that he beat tomato cans: Bennie Briscoe, Rodrigo Valdez, Emile Griffith, Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles, Nino Benvenutti, Jean Claude Bouttiere, Denny Moyer and Tom Boggs to name a few. That is good opposition at least if you ask me. He was tested many times and he passed the test. Let's give him CREDIT for that. The ONLY KNOCK I got against him was that he should have challenged the great Bob Foster and other good light-heavyweight boxers of his time, but, he didn't. At least fight Foster in a ten rounder. He would have beaten Foster while middleweight king, his ranking pound per pound would've been higher.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Monzon in his prime was arguably the best MW of all time.....SRR was pretty clearly the best WW.

And a good MW when he moved up.

I'd bet on Monzon, you'd bet on SRR. I'd be very comfortable with my investment.

Just something for you ''BoxBuzz'' this is just an example of the difference between these two beast SRR turned pro in the lightweight division on the Armstrong v Zivic World Welterweight Title fight show on the 4-10-1940 approx. 1 year 17 day's later guess who was beating Fritzie Zivic if you guessed SRR your in the money young man now lets compare that with your man Monzon a touch over a year after turning pro he was fighting a 14 year old Roberto Eduardo Carabajal who's fabulous record was 0-10 SRR won 40 fight's in a row before he lost for the first time that was on point's to La Motta he then won his next 91 fight's with out defeat there was some drawn fight's but not 9 in his career SRR beat 16 Reigning/Future/Former WORLD CHAMPION'S ''BoxBuzz'' can you do me a favour and compare that with your man Monzon ''BoxBuzz'' did you know that SRR only had 6 Welterweight World Title Fight's over a period of 3 year's 8 month's also during his World Welterweight Championship Reign that SRR engaged in approx 32 NON TITLE FIGHT'S ALL WERE AT MIDDLEWEIGHT or you could call those fight's Jr Middleweight fight's if it was today SRR was a Jr Middleweight draining to make Welterweight before giving up the Welterweight Title to move on and cement his legacy as the P4P KING THANK FU.K TO WHO EVER INVENTED THE MIDDLEWEIGHT DIVISION. BECAUSE WITHOUT IT WE WOULD ONLY HAVE SRR THE WELTERWEIGHT AND THAT WOULD BE A TRAVISTY .....SRR THE BEST MIDDLE/JR MIDDLE/WELTERWEIGHT IN HISTORY

[BoxBuzz]

Though your argument has some facts, it does not persuade. I understand your point of view, appreciate it, disagree with it.

and.....you are the master of smilies!

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Though your argument has some facts, it does not persuade. I understand your point of view, appreciate it, disagree with it.

and.....you are the master of smilies!

Thanks for being HONEST I like your point of view because it made me realise i'v been RATING Carlos way to high and its made me realise why team Monzon wouldn't touch a 22/23 year old Marvin Hagler with a fifty foot pole........ps...this is for you brother mate on a serious note I do respect your opinion and I still have Carlos in my top 10 Greatest Middleweight's of all time.I was thinking but you probably already watched it........ its called P4P Its a fabulous doco on SRR it might change your mind but anyway I loved watching the bit when Joe Louis is asked his opinion of SRR he said most fighter's can only knock you out when coming forward Joe said but Sugar Ray could knock you out going away from his opponent same as moving towards his opponent Joe said he saw him dazzle and he was the P4P best fighter who ever lived and Ali said a similar think i'v never seen either man change his opinion of SRR even when Monzon was king.

[Kalan]

To be fair....BoxRec is using "Retired" to describe such fights.

I don't think it's an official descriptor on the record. I do think it's a good call on their part to help in the sorting of how a fighters loss was determined....but "TKO and KO" were the lexicon I remember being used in such cases in the past.


It's semantics, so we shouldn't get bogged down it it. Purely technical jargon. I do think they have enlisted it to decipher between a refs call, and the fighters call.


Anyone want to fact check me on that?

It seems like you're almost understanding some of the raw basics...such as whether a boxer who quits suffers a KO loss on his record or not... He does.

Context is everything Poindexter.......

Here is the BoxRec definition as to how they use the term "retired".....though because the database is so big, it has been known to be used incorrectly. (Human error) And as I suspected is meant to give a bit more info/context as to KO/TKO rulings.

We (BoxRec) introduced RTD (retired) and it only applies when corner retires or is retired by doctor between rounds. Unfortunately from time to time some editors don't have a clear understanding of it, or commissions fail to provide sufficient info. In boxrer's overall record, it still registers as KO/TKO loss/win

You're twisting context Dexter Poiner... Some boxers will "go out on their shield" ... and some will do the sensible thing and and quit if the referee and their corner aren't sensible enough to intervene... We saw Mike Alvarado's corner shouting at referee Tony Weeks that he could continue... Weeks said "SHUT UP. I want to talk to the fighter. MIKE, do you want to continue???" Mike said "no." ... Most KO'S do NOT end with a 10-count Poiner. Somebody stops it.. The referee, or the corner, or the boxer himself.. Roberto Duran said "NO MAS" when outwardly he didn't seem to have a problem that I could see.. It still went on Ray Leonard's KO record and it should.. Robinson was obviously NOT going to come out for the next round.. He was done. You don't send a badly hurt or exhausted fighter out to get flattened -- unless you're Nathan Cleverly's corner. You "retire." Such a kindly word. To me, you retire when your career is over... You quit if your opponent seems likely to knock you out or hurt you badly.. In Roberto Duran's case, Leonard was threatening to make an ass out of him.. It can be less embarrassing if you just quit, but it's not a positive.

The exception for me is when a boxer suffers a freak injury.. Michael Grant broke his ankle against Jameel McCline.. Odlainer Solis and Czar Glazkov blew their knees out in fights with Vitali Klitschko and Charles Martin.. Vitali Klitschko suffered a fully severed rotator cuff assembly vs Byrd... Bernard Hopkins suffered a broken or badly sprained wrist in his 1st fight with Robert Allen, and the injury didn't allow him to continue... Things like that happen from time to time and it's nobody's fault.

[BoxBuzz]

So...Poinster.....you don't recognize when you're in agreement with someone?

That's ok, why waste a good argument opportunity jus cuz yer on the same page with someone.

I look at all those words you wrote....and I can't find the disagreement....but I'm sure you'll find it somewhere.

I do understand that YOU personally reserve the right to clarify your own thoughts. Which must keep you very busy.